71

I don't want to come off as reductive, bioessentialist, homophobic. I don't want to come off as bitter for being heterosexual. The sexual attraction I feel toward men isn't a choice, but I do choose to accept and fixate on it.

Am I entitled to hope to be treated well? Am I doomed to sexual suffering- surely it's not outrageous for me to hope to be loved and treated well. Surely humans are evolved enough to have basic respect at dire times. Am I foolish to be hopeful?

Basically I look at how men treat each other, how they talk about each other sexually. In my mind it's unacceptable. I don't care if that sounds bad. I know the way men think sexually about each other is just a magnified version of how they discuss women. Why are they concerned with degradation and ruination? Why is sex about destruction to them? Dissolution of respect? It is all about materialism. Is sex all about materialism?

Why do I want to view sex constructively?

Why must women be the fucking gatekeepers of our own safety? IS THIS biological when we know these hormones do change your mind? Where is the line drawn between nature and nurture? Am I getting too blackpilled on this shit? If I believe that gender "isn't real", then shouldn't all this solve itself as a part of solving general misogyny? Should i have confidence in this type of progress or is it too animalistic to change?

What even defines this male sexuality? In my opinion it's culture-driven manifestations and magnifications of biological impulse. It's not mind over matter, it's full integration of mind with matter.

Women don't deserve violence for liking men sexually. Yet it is what so much of us receive as the payoff. Where do we even go from here? "Political lesbianism" is not a solution. Heterosexual women do not deserve this.

If I ever see the word "hole" again I'm cracking.

My friends tell me "go to a therapist, your views on sex are weird." No they're fuckin not. Not when I see how men talk when they're alone.

I don't want to come off as reductive, bioessentialist, homophobic. I don't want to come off as bitter for being heterosexual. The sexual attraction I feel toward men isn't a choice, but I do choose to accept and fixate on it. Am I entitled to hope to be treated well? Am I doomed to sexual suffering- surely it's not outrageous for me to hope to be loved and treated well. Surely humans are evolved enough to have basic respect at dire times. Am I foolish to be hopeful? Basically I look at how men treat each other, how they talk about each other sexually. In my mind it's unacceptable. I don't care if that sounds bad. I know the way men think sexually about each other is just a magnified version of how they discuss women. Why are they concerned with degradation and ruination? Why is sex about destruction to them? Dissolution of respect? It is all about materialism. Is sex all about materialism? Why do I want to view sex constructively? Why must women be the fucking gatekeepers of our own safety? IS THIS biological when we know these hormones do change your mind? Where is the line drawn between nature and nurture? Am I getting too blackpilled on this shit? If I believe that gender "isn't real", then shouldn't all this solve itself as a part of solving general misogyny? Should i have confidence in this type of progress or is it too animalistic to change? What even defines this male sexuality? In my opinion it's culture-driven manifestations and magnifications of biological impulse. It's not mind over matter, it's full integration of mind with matter. Women don't deserve violence for liking men sexually. Yet it is what so much of us receive as the payoff. Where do we even go from here? "Political lesbianism" is not a solution. Heterosexual women do not deserve this. If I ever see the word "hole" again I'm cracking. My friends tell me "go to a therapist, your views on sex are weird." No they're fuckin not. Not when I see how men talk when they're alone.

Show comments

72 comments

I think a woman's best bet is to run at the first sign of red flags. Any evidence of pushing boundaries, inquiring about kinks, etc. It's the only way to keep safe. Don't give a man a second chance if he shows even a hint of sexual entitlement.

I'm in a heterosexual relationship, so I know it's possible to have a healthy one, but I just lucked out. I didn't do anything special to vet my partner. I just had the good fortune to run into someone who wasn't corrupted by kink and BDSM. Maybe it also helped that we were young and he had only been in two relationships before me. He may not be completely "pure," but I don't find any of his sexual interests misogynistic.

Same situation for me, but I attribute his healthy attitude towards women and normal sex to his being raised by a divorced mother with two older sisters.

In my experience, men who were raised with sisters are almost always superior to ones who weren’t.

My partner only has brothers, but he is closer to his mom than his dad.

my bf has never dated anyone before me. he's one of the only guys I know who actually doesn't watch porn, and doesn't have double standards when it comes to how they view sex for men vs women.

he's not perfect, of course, but we have exactly the same views on sex and I think that's great. we largely have the same values in other aspects too.

I just lucked out. I didn't do anything special to vet my partner. I just had the good fortune to run into someone who wasn't corrupted by kink and BDSM.

That's my experience and this is what I tell to my hopeless girl friends.

It is true that relationship requires dedication and patience, it is impossible to never have a misunderstanding afterall. But finding someone collaborative and loving is just luck, because it is up to him to be like this.

Don't despair. Even if it is biological, humans can evolve. Three generations of women selecting against shitty men, and we should have a pretty okay situation. (Though that doesn't help you now, of course.)

Keep your expectations high. You might find a man who meets them.

My friends tell me "go to a therapist, your views on sex are weird."

What views, exactly, have you shared with them? Cause it seems rather weird to me to tell a woman to go to a therapist because she doesn't want to be choked, beaten or called names in bed. Expecting sex to be about love and intimacy is pretty standard, very normal, and the only mindset that does NOT require therapy.

That sex carries potential for violence and that is kind of sickening for me, lol.

Wow, really, your friends think that's a weird take? OK, but it's literally true. Like, someone is pushing a part of their body into you. Of course it has potential for violence. Even aside from the nuts and bolts aspect (pun not intended), it is an empirical truth that male sex has been and is used as violence against women (and occasionally against men) for millennia. Rape has been a key part of war and invasion throughout history. Rape is very often a key part of abuse in domestic relationships. Your friends are lucky/naive/in denial if they don't know that sex doesn't just have potential for violence IT IS VIOLENCE in many many situations.

This actually made me feel much better, thank you.

I'm selecting away literally all of them. XD Not sure if it'll help the future, but it is certainly helping my life. I will leave it up so someone else to find a really good one to have children with.

Lesbian opinion here but I've noticed men tend to use women for sex and labour and instead find friendship, support, and protection in other men.

It's not fair and I'm sorry that heterosexual women have to deal with this. But what if you emulated this behaviour? Don't rely on a man for friendship, financial support, protection, romance. Make female friendships so close and full of love and trust it borders on homoerotic (lord knows men do this all the time!).

  • focus on gaining financial independence and securing it, never merge accounts with a man or give up a job or opportunity for him

  • leave at the slightest hint of a red flag, take no shit at all. It always baffles me how some women get into a 'I can fix him' / 'I can make him understand' mindset. If he doesn't respect you, it's not because he doesn't understand. It's because he refuses to.

  • don't let him move in / retain your own property. A heartbreaking number of women wind up homeless (even late in life) because they were kicked out of their shared home / didn't get the house in the divorce. Keeping your own property (if you can) is also a financial safety net.

  • get his opinions on porn and sexual interests way before you start sleeping together. I think women who don't 'out' themselves as anti-porn at the talking stage get more honesty from men about their behaviour. Don't settle for a porn user / addict. Also, work out if his language about sex is destructive - does he see sex as an intimate act of love or does he only call it fucking? Does he hate the term 'make love'? Does he use aggressive language - screwing, facefucking? Red flags.

I'm sorry that they aren't reliable - or, at least, that there aren't enough men that will treat a woman with respect and love.

If it's a grim sort of solace, plenty of lesbians are also pornsick and kink-twisted. My first time was with a girl who tried to choke me sans warning because 'it feels better that way'. A lesbian friend of mine was repeatedly pressured by her ex to deepthroat a strap-on.

I lucked out with my current partner, a self-declared prude who cherishes our intimacy. But it's rough out there on the dating scene :(

This is basically my strategy, and I have found it very powerful. I'm a former one-of-the-guys girl, but now that I'm older I have strong quasi-romantic friendships with women while dating men (and become increasingly picky about which ones). And giving men the anti-porn talk and a good few rad fem rants pretty early on definitely helps. I also made a conscious effort to orient myself socially and professionally to women, in the way men do to men - I will always choose to work with a woman, support the creative output of a woman, talk to a woman at a party, whatever else... over men. It took a while to deprogram myself from my male-centric fascination and desire to impress patriarchs, but it now feels completely natural to centre women. I'm still hopelessly heterosexual, and am someone who falls hard and fairly obsessively, and I deeply love my current male partner, but I'm happier for being always grounded in the world of women that I live in that is so much bigger than my personal sexual life.

And giving men the anti-porn talk and a good few rad fem rants pretty early on definitely helps.

Just a tip to everyone...be careful about doing this. Men lie and will pretend to be exactly who you want him to be so he can gain access to your body and intimacy.

I read a tip on dumb foxing this, and just asking about his kinks/favourite types of porn (while seeming not to mind). Apparently, a lot of men will open up about their addictions if they think you don't mind. (Obviously, don't let them know this is a dealbreaker, they will just lie to the next woman, or even to you. "They have changed" and such).

I'm not at all interested in dating these days, so I have 0 experience with this tip. But thought I would share in case it's useful to anyone.

The things you note are important, but for me financial independence is something all humans in the developed world need to have covered anyway. For me sexual relationship is merely an aspiration, a hope - but I feel in some ways even hoping in this will yield mixed outcomes for myself. The hoping alone. Your points about language are the most potent. If he views it destructively it will come out in his thoughts.

Freakishly, I feel like female sociality is a luxury. I went to a majority male school as a child, studied STEM in univeristy, now work with mostly men, and my few female contacts have gone politically wayward... I don't know how to meet women.

If it's a grim sort of solace, plenty of lesbians are also pornsick and kink-twisted.

Very sorry to hear this. It seems the infection is spreading.

"In my opinion it's culture-driven manifestations and magnifications of biological impulse. It's not mind over matter, it's full integration of mind with matter."

I agree. And if the mind can get a man into this cesspool of violence/death/sex, a mind can get a man out of this cesspool.

Maybe I'll be told I'm an idiot for this belief, but it's based on real-world experience. My sexual relationship with my husband is not violent at all. It's not about him imposing, either. He doesn't watch any porn (really!). It's just him, me, our bodies, and our faithful love. Pretty vanilla. And yet very fulfilling. And we raised our sons this way, too. But yeah, I think the number of men who've followed a path of self-mastery is quite small, and for that I shed bucketsful of tears (because I have daughters, too).

But yes, sexual integrity is possible for men. And they and the women they love and the children they father live happier lives that way.

I know your next question will be how do we get a much larger number of men out of the cesspool they've dug for themselves. And I admit I don't know the answer to that. But at a minimum women must refuse the type of sex most men in our culture want to have--and I think what you've articulated here is exactly the kind of brave determination that is needed. I applaud you for it!

The only way we can do it is by keeping ourselves off-limits to all men who don’t meet our standards. That means many of us will not be partnered. If enough women adopt this men could retaliate in really violent ways and without getting too detailed for the rules of this site, we need to have plans in place for that backlash as well. Men have to realize they will not get a partner until they learn to respect us the exact same way they demand for us to respect them. And probably for them to stop demanding that because even the best ones don’t deserve the level of respect they demand. Everything is all backwards and only they can make it right.

This isn’t likely to happen in our lifetimes seeing that SO MANY women, even and especially young women, eagerly offer themselves up for male abuse. There is nothing we can do when that continues.

This is the bottom line.

And why so many women resist feminism, imho.

[–] friedparata 6 points Edited

honestly, why do women willingly get into relationships with shit men?

There is someone I know, who's close to me. his mom married his dad, even though she knew he was a homeless alcoholic who already had children with other women, and was kicked out by them. he ofc was abusive to her as well, and after my friend was born, she kicked him out. he's still a homeless drunk and doesn't have relationships with any of his children.

the thing is, she got into a relationship with him, even married him knowing what he was like. my friend says she just wanted to have a child, but... that seems excessive.

her first husband was also abusive and his family made her do all the housework, and treated her like a maid servant. but he died in a car accident before they had children. she got married to him because of family pressure. her father was also incredibly abusive to her, in every way.

basically, every male in her life, except her son, has failed her.

I think grooming plays a huge role. There are so many ways girls are taught to care for others at the expense of themselves, and this carries over into adulthood. If you were taught as a child to be responsible for the home while your brothers did whatever they wanted, you'd be more likely to see this as normal and clean up after your husband like you cleaned up after your brothers and father. It's actually downright frightening how effective socialization is.

I feel like this is starting to happen. I see a lot of women now, happily living on their own, and not wanting to have anything to do with pornsick men who will disrespect them and be a burden to their lives. It's slowly becoming normal, and women talk about this in day-to-day conversations. I feel like a lot of women are seeing how poorly men will treat them, and decide not to accept it in their lives anymore.

I am living alone, and very content with it. Pretty sure I will never invite anyone to live with me ever again. It's so peaceful here on my own.

But at a minimum women must refuse the type of sex most men in our culture want to have

Well at least I am on track hahahah

Yeah… I’m a straight woman and it feels pretty hopeless. Is it so bad that I want to find a man who respects me and truly sees me as his equal?

Maybe I will find my Nigel in the rough. Maybe I won’t and I’ll be single forever. I have had a hard time accepting the latter option but I do have fulfilling friendships and hobbies that I focus on.

To be honest, I don't think there's really any way to know for sure -- not yet, at least. A huge part of it is definitely socialization, and it is possible to at least improve things. But how much of what is due to nature vs nurture is pretty much impossible to accurately determine -- even for things like your own personality. So many women, even on this site, claim that some of the things they do, even the ones that uphold patriarchy are "just their personalities" and that they know the effect their socialization has had on them. But the truth is they don't. None of us do. Yes, our individual personalities do affect how we respond to socialization, but at the end of the day we are products of our culture. And all of our cultures, no matter where we are in the world, are deeply misogynist. That goes for everyone, both men and women.

Am I entitled to hope to be treated well?

No, you are not entitled for thinking that. Everyone deserves to be treated well. And it's perfectly normal to want to love and be loved. Which is why you should never settle. Ever. You deserve to be treated as a human being, as an equal, and you should never accept less. Never stay with a man who doesn't treat you properly. It's just not worth it, and the more of us settle, the more difficult it will be to improve men and make this world slightly less sexist. Do not compromise on your core values.

Women don't deserve violence for liking men sexually. Yet it is what so much of us receive as the payoff. Where do we even go from here? "Political lesbianism" is not a solution. Heterosexual women do not deserve this.

Completely agree, and I think that's why we need to stop being so hostile to women who have men in their lives. We should promote ways to make sure that women are being treated properly and to never stay in relationships where they aren't, but if we keep up with this "all men are inherently evil and the only way to go is to stay away from them forever" rhetoric, we're going to turn the vast majority of women off of our cause and never actually get anywhere.

One of my fav comments on this because it feels like a warm hug.

Thanks :) It's good to know my comment was received positively and that it made someone feel good.

[–] crodish 19 points Edited

"Political lesbianism" is not a solution. Heterosexual women do not deserve this.

Fucking thank you. Signed, a wlw

Also your friends are likely libfem douchebags. Nothing you said is weird at all and the despair and rage in your post is very warranted.

[–] otterstrom 19 points Edited

That day will never come. The day when some experience or sentence dissolves away all the doubt you have. Men will keep being like this. And you will keep needing to come to this place where you either accept it, or continue to flounder in the questioning.

No. Men are not a place to go to “to be loved and treated well.” They can pretend for a time, but the moment it no longer serves their interests, they will drop the pretense.

Find solace in a life well lived, in a life you love, in a life of love you give yourself. Gather with women. Avoid reproduction if you value sanity and freedom. The fairytale is never coming true.

No. Men are not a place to go to “to be loved and treated well.” They can pretend for a time, but the moment it no longer serves their interests, they will drop the pretense.

It's painful, but it's true. It doesn't have to be painful if you choose to not interact with men and surround yourself with women. One of the most painful things to unlearn for me was that a man was a necessity for my own happiness. The joy I've found on the other side of that falsehood, however, is immeasurable. Women are humanity.

One of the most painful things to unlearn for me was that a man was a necessity for my own happiness.

Happy for you, sis 💛

Women are humanity What an excellent saying. And absolutely true

I think good men exist.

I am in a bit of a weird spot with my boyfriend right now, but he is a really good example I think for the most part.

We first started dating we were 19 and that was when I found out about the porn stuff with human trafficking and everything. I went to him with the evidence I found and he stop watching. He listens to me and changes his view on things. He’s a very considerate boyfriend as well when our university classes were online and we lived together he would do a full deep clean of our apartment occasionally as a surprise when I’d get off (chores were fairly split but I’m a bit of a mess) and he’d cook food and bring it to me at work and we’d eat in my car together on my break. He genuinely is very sweet and treats me well.

The reason I said in a weird place is because we’ve come to a bit of an impasse on the trans topic. Ovarit is pretty small so you may or may not have seen my posts but we agreed at the end of this month we’re doing a formal debate with academic sources to try and convince each other of the other’s side.

And just from him doing his own research hes already said there is an aspect of the trans argument he wants to take off the table because him doing his own research has already caused him to agree with me on my side, so I’m not too worried about the debate honestly.

But I think that is the big thing to look for- is he willing to listen and change? I didn’t fix my boyfriend, and you cannot fix other people, but I was lucky enough to stumble across a man who is willing to listen and acknowledge my life and experience.

If you can find a man who is genuinely willing to do that, then I think long term that is the key.

my bf also listens to me and changes his mind about things if I'm right. we both stopped watching porn because we both understood how much it rots your brain. he says, especially, he notices how much porn has rotten men and boys' brains. i was the one who told him about how most porn stars are trafficked women, many amateur videos are revenge porn. there is no way of knowing which is which. most of the videos are also just so violent. you could hardly find anything sweet and romantic.

Women don't deserve violence for liking men sexually.

Based, not weird.

Your views aren't weird. I'm so tired of men at the moment. I'm in the process of leaving a 3-year relationship, and as we were watching a show together last night, my ex left the room because I wouldn't allow him to grope me. It makes me sad, but the level of entitlement he feels to my body - as well as how he refuses to hang out with me unless he can sexualize me - reminds me of exactly why I'm leaving.

Load more (10 comments)