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Men "not being feminist", because some women hate men makes about as much sense to me as not being anti-racist because some POC hate white people.

Men seriously expect women to coddle them absolutely all the time. Even when pointing out very deserved criticism of men as a class, to the point that it makes it impossible to point them out at all, since even that alone is considered offensive.

Fuck that! Boundaries are not set by politely pleading if the person who crosses them would just please, if they could manage it, respect them. All the while throwing in excuses and trying not to offend.

Sometimes, when people keep pestering you, boundaries need to be firmly asserted.

It's not like we hold them at gunpoint. A simple "No." is often considered too offensive already. Because we're women.

I've been thinking up a comic where there is a man on a pedestal and a woman way below him, then climbing up to meet his eyes and then the man throws a tantrum crying something about how men and women's rights deserve "equal attention", only to climb up as well and thus re-establish the difference in height.

Unfortunately, I can't draw. -_-

Men "not being feminist", because some women hate men makes about as much sense to me as not being anti-racist because some POC hate white people. Men seriously expect women to coddle them absolutely all the time. Even when pointing out very deserved criticism of men as a class, to the point that it makes it impossible to point them out at all, since even that alone is considered offensive. Fuck that! Boundaries are not set by politely pleading if the person who crosses them would just please, if they could manage it, respect them. All the while throwing in excuses and trying not to offend. Sometimes, when people keep pestering you, boundaries need to be firmly asserted. It's not like we hold them at gunpoint. A simple "No." is often considered too offensive already. Because we're women. I've been thinking up a comic where there is a man on a pedestal and a woman way below him, then climbing up to meet his eyes and then the man throws a tantrum crying something about how men and women's rights deserve "equal attention", only to climb up as well and thus re-establish the difference in height. Unfortunately, I can't draw. -_-

28 comments

[–] OwnLyingEyes 12 points Edited

I think a lot of men have the fantasy that they take really good care of us, are the providers, etc, to the point where they have heaped some resentment on us around it that they cherish. Many seem to conceive of us as pampered pets, and see our concerns as something to humor (or not) at their will, but ultimately a bit frivolous, something to be given with a head pat, 'ok, dear, you can vote now, happy?' And anything that truly threatens that cherished, resentful fantasy so many hold of men slaving at work so women can take it easy at home (including things like, say, women being the primary breadwinner, which many of us are in households with kids), tends to piss them off. We're supposed to be grateful to them, damn it!

Anything that points out the sheer volume of unpaid work that women unevenly are burdened with to this day gets diminished until it's practically nothing at all. A couple can both work fulltime jobs and the woman can shoulder the vast majority of the household work and day after day they can live out the evidence that he has hours to spend playing video games while she has almost no free time at all, and the man can still believe it's 'equal' (...buuut surely my job more difficult and demanding than what she's doing, right?).

I also think a lot of women tend to identify with men of their own race (ethnicity/religion/etc...) over other women of different races (ethnicities/religions/etc...), while men tend to identify with other men across those lines instead of with "their" women. Because while we see them as people, and some as our people, they tend to see us as property; hell, they bond with each other over disrespecting and denigrating us. Men who catch other men talking about us like we're real partners, to the point of keeping us informed about things that affect us and consulting with us on big decisions mock them as 'whipped,' as 'not wearing the pants.' We may see them as our fathers, brothers, sons, often husbands, but they tend to see us as their mothers, sisters, daughters, wives. Family (with all of the spoken and unspoken obligations and duties that comes with that concept) versus chattel. And when it comes to who they pursue for sex and love, a ton of men seem to look at women as just like different products, Chevy vs Toyota vs Mercedes, and while their preferences (and even sometimes some level of 'brand loyalty') inform that decision, it doesn't seem to hold anything like the same kind of weight and pain of, say, the divestment movement.

Thank you for your elaborate reply. I agree. Which reminds me of when men say they "don't understand women". It's because they don't view us as people equal to themselves.

There’s an AITA post doing the rounds on social media where the boyfriend (apparently following a TikTok trend, as you do when you’re 30) said to his girlfriend ‘where’s my dinner, b!tch’ while filming her on his phone. She objected to this name calling and demonstrated her upset by dumping the pasta sauce she had cooked on his floor. The bf double downed and is now insisting that she clean his floor.

Dudes are in comments with ‘how are men supposed to know that word is offensive?’ and ‘maybe he shouldn’t have said that but she overreacted and the floor doesn’t deserve that. She should have expressed her feelings in a way that didn’t cause him any discomfort whatsoever’ and ‘jeez. Is the boyfriend supposed to walk on eggshells because his gf might get triggered?’ There are even pick mes in the comments saying ‘oh, that word is totally not offensive to women.’

So there we have it. Women not tolerating men’s bs is a bigger problem than men’s bs in the first place and justification for men to prop up up other men and denigrate women.

Women being abused by men is misogyny. Women calling out misogyny, misandry.

[–] PaulaAlquist 11 points Edited

Men don't want women's liberation, they want to keep us under their boot heels, it benefits them. Why on earth would they be feminists?

They, I suppose, can be allies, but I have met very few of these in my lifetime that were not pretenders, and those were usually fathers of daughters.

Men aren’t feminists because it doesn’t serve them to be feminists. They have only survived this long because women consistently paper over the cracks in their facade. If they support feminism, they are supporting their own collapse.

Men aren't feminist anyway. At best, they might be feminist allies.

True. They think they can be though. But even then they're hellbent on calling themselves "equalitarian" instead if they dislike thinking of themselves as sexists, often demanding that feminists use this label for themselves as well.

[–] SecondSkin 12 points Edited

FEMinism is exclusively for FEMales.

Men can be feminist allies, not feminists. When men claim to be feminists they swiftly twist feminism to centre men.

It’s rare they are true feminist allies. I think more commonly the decent ones don’t stand in our way in general, and become feminist allies on specific matters, not all feminist matters.

Your comic example is why equality is not a helpful concept. Feminism was never about equality until men got involved and made it centre them. Feminism was always about women’s liberation, dismantling patriarchal hierarchy, not equality. Talk about equality and men become what about meeeee. Men can fix men’s problems, there’s no space in feminism for them. Feminism is the only political movement expected to include everyone. The communist party are not expected to centre capitalists, BLM aren’t expected to include KKK, and LGBA shouldn’t be expected to work for the benefit of straight people (including the TiMs). If political movements or groups or charities are expected to include everyone’s interests, then they don’t get anything done.

[–] furyosa no, thank you 8 points

Men can fix men’s problems

💯

Men don't listen to us anyway. Their only takeaway when they hear feminist analysis is "why are you demonizing meeeee?!! 😭🤬"

I think men who claim to be feminist do so because they wish to control the narrative and the argument. Sure, they think women should have rights, but only the rights they think women should have.

Well, who cares what they think about feminism anyway. Worrying about what they think is mostly a waste of our energy.

I'll draw that comic for you. I used to draw silly comics a lot as a kid lol.

maybe I'll post it in o/radfemmery. not sure where to post it, actually.

Even when pointing out very deserved criticism of men as a class

I don't think most men much, if ever, conceive intuitively of classes of men—whether the male sex as a whole or well-defined subgroups of it—in actual classwide generalizations.

The newer realization for me is how astoundingly often they DO generalize the traits they attribute to Women (...one guess whether these are ever traits that are broadly regarded as good qualities—even the handful of those that most men actually acknowledge e.g. nurturance).

"Karen" was what drove the epiphany here.
No male name has yet been branded with a whole burn-book of complaints and broadsides.
in fact, the closest 'corresponding' names (where 'corresponding' is doing some very heavy lifting indeed), like Chad, lie somewhere along the spectrum from grudgingly admiring to slavishly idolizing. Not one exists that's a slur.

Very good point!

What I've also noticed is that men must rely on only a few "examples" of women being "just as bad", (in their eyes) like Amber Heard. That's why it blew up as much as it did. Examples of apparent shitty women in the way men are shitty are apparently hard to find, whereas with shitty men, we've become pretty much desensitized to it, due to the vast amount.

Yuppers. JKR is a one-Woman festival of J'accuse! so often that it's quite adorable by now, and STILL nobody can actually supply a single thing in support of calling for her head.

well, that (and asshole and jerk and so on) can morph all the way into a compliment in high-stakes situations. "No nonsense" being a male thing and all that—there's certainly no male equivalent of "bitch".

In this case, though, I was talking specifically about 'names' I.e. standard-ish American first/given names like Karen or Chad—this being the new potential fount of insight.
I'm alws ready for new learning, but I'd be pretty shocked if there was much left to squeeze from appellations like bitch, asshole and so on.🤷🏾‍♀️

Adolf?

Clever ahah. But no, not the same.
That's one specific dude, which kinda re-makes the point i made a couple posts up: Men don't put classes of men into a box. "Adolf", ironically, proves that the commitment to NOT doing so is so thoroughgoing that people would rather go back and pick Individual Bad Guy Number 1 out from the history of eighty years ago.

"Karens" are not named for any identifiable individual named Karen [lastname], which is the point i'm going for here. The name implies that an entire demographic of Women (i.e., ages 45-65 or so, upper middle class, White, not old-money, not blue-collar) can be painted with one stroke of one brush.

well their is no such thing as a male feminist anyway- only male allies- feminism is a movement for woman by woman.....any and all pick me's that allow men into the movement ruin it...their are enough self hating woman that think they are feminist or anti-feminist [even when the benefit from woman's rights] no need to add men who never want woman to have rights in the first place or need 100+ years to understand certain types of abuse