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19 comments

The problem is men suck. That’s not something women can change. Only the men can. And if they won’t then it’s best for women to minimize having sex and relationships with men. I know men aren’t having long conversations with each other about this stuff. They just hate on women and externalize blame. We can’t make progress when one side is unwilling to take accountability for their behavior.

[–] zuubat 6 points Edited

Feminist sex, if there is such a thing, is lesbian sex.

The best a hetero woman can do is to find a situation where she (1) enjoys herself and (2) avoids STDs and unwanted pregnancy. Over time, that can be with one man, several men, or on her own.

A plus would be to find said situation without being subject to a barrage of finger-wagging from other women.

I agree. Sex with a male, under any circumstances, cannot ever be a feminist act. Men are the enemy, ffs. Women can be so silly in thinking that having hetrosexual sex makes men respect us or is empowering in any way. If women like having sex they should just go about it and stop trying to justify it or frame it as feminist.

That isn't the same thing as saying that a woman is a bad feminist if she engages in sex with a man. There is nothing wrong with being heterosexual or having sex because purely because she enjoys it. She just isn't doing anything to promote the liberation of women by having sex with a man. Not everything a woman does has to be a feminist act. These kind of questions just piss women off and turn them off to feminism.

Not everything a woman does has to be a feminist act.

Exactly. You can believe in feminism and be a feminist, and not be a perfect one. But just be honest about it. Nobody's perfect.

Apparently critical and/or deeper thought is not your forte.

The only feminist way to give birth is to give birth to a female? The only feminist way to be a parent is to be a parent to girls? I can go on all day, but I think I’ve made my point.

Please try harder to think through the concepts that you push, before you push them. This one holds no water.

Apparently critical and/or deeper thought is not your forte.

Oh, for heaven's sake!

The reason I said "if there is such a thing" is that using "feminist" as a modifier to "sex" is silly. Just as using it as a modifier to birthing, parenting, working, belching, walking, filing taxes, evading taxes, or any other thing that any woman does. So whatever "point" you're making is one that I agree with.

Rendering your personal attack on me particularly silly.

No lesbian sex is not more feminist if such a thing exist than heterosexual sex. What a ridiculous thing to say.

[–] hmimperialtortie cats plz 4 points

Not to mention it automatically excludes the majority of women in the world.

hard agree. i low key hate men. truly and deeply. they have hurt me and my female peers in unimaginable ways. but i’m hetro, i desire sex and companionship. i have a intense desire to have children.

on top of that i feel like there is some level of elitism to the ideal of “female separatism”

i live in a patriarchal, poor, rural community. i have a low level education. i have minimal work experience. i escaped poverty and prostitution by attaching to the “best man” i could find.

it’s an absurd 1st world, urban dwelling, collage educated perspective that women can just choose not to live alongside men.

i’m sorry but the majority of women in this world are living a reality where a life without male partners is a fast track to be ostracized by the wider community.

This is a strange conversation, but includes some real nuggets of wisdom and real nuggets of foolishness. Very much worth reading. I'll try and pull a few quotes and put them in this comment.

"And I do think that when we talk about desire, there’s sexual desire, but there’s also emotional desire, desires for security, desire for commitment, desire to be treated kindly and decently. I think what you see now is this — some people call it it hetero-pessimism, but there’s clearly this gulf between a lot of young men and a lot of young women. Obviously, we’re talking about heterosexuals here, but where they just sort of cannot connect because their expectations are so radically divergent."


"But in terms of as a social norm, the societies that have non monogamy as a social norm, I mean there’s exceptions, but in general, those places have not historically been great for women. And I tend to think — I mean, this is something Louise Perry, who I have a lot of disagreements with, but one thing she writes in her book is that basically, that for a lot of people, monogamy is the worst system except for all the others."


"I think that for me, the question of sexual empowerment is a question of freedom versus happiness. So it seems like a goal of the pro-sexual freedom is so that people can have a sex life of their own making, which is freedom. And then there’s a separate idea, which I don’t think either of you are embracing, but I feel like it’s unspoken in our culture, which is that if you do all of these things, you’ll be happy.

"But I actually think that your ability to do something is separate from your happiness doing it. Pro-sex feminism does not owe you good sex, just like marriage equality does not owe you a good marriage. Is it possible to divorce the two ideas from each other, that being able to do something is different from enjoying that thing? And Nona, is bad sex the price we pay for those choices?"

Pro-sex feminism does not owe you good sex, just like marriage equality does not owe you a good marriage.

I don’t know if we mean the same thing when we say it, but I’ve never seen this put into words by someone other than myself.

The archive only gets you to the landing page; it doesn't get the transcript:

https://archive.ph/2jZ38

Thanks so much. I’m trying to make my way through the linked articles and then the transcript again. Coaston is a lot better on this topic than the last episode on what feminism owes the trans community. That was infuriating.