This is a strange conversation, but includes some real nuggets of wisdom and real nuggets of foolishness. Very much worth reading. I'll try and pull a few quotes and put them in this comment.

"And I do think that when we talk about desire, there’s sexual desire, but there’s also emotional desire, desires for security, desire for commitment, desire to be treated kindly and decently. I think what you see now is this — some people call it it hetero-pessimism, but there’s clearly this gulf between a lot of young men and a lot of young women. Obviously, we’re talking about heterosexuals here, but where they just sort of cannot connect because their expectations are so radically divergent."

"But in terms of as a social norm, the societies that have non monogamy as a social norm, I mean there’s exceptions, but in general, those places have not historically been great for women. And I tend to think — I mean, this is something Louise Perry, who I have a lot of disagreements with, but one thing she writes in her book is that basically, that for a lot of people, monogamy is the worst system except for all the others."

"I think that for me, the question of sexual empowerment is a question of freedom versus happiness. So it seems like a goal of the pro-sexual freedom is so that people can have a sex life of their own making, which is freedom. And then there’s a separate idea, which I don’t think either of you are embracing, but I feel like it’s unspoken in our culture, which is that if you do all of these things, you’ll be happy.

"But I actually think that your ability to do something is separate from your happiness doing it. Pro-sex feminism does not owe you good sex, just like marriage equality does not owe you a good marriage. Is it possible to divorce the two ideas from each other, that being able to do something is different from enjoying that thing? And Nona, is bad sex the price we pay for those choices?"

Pro-sex feminism does not owe you good sex, just like marriage equality does not owe you a good marriage.

I don’t know if we mean the same thing when we say it, but I’ve never seen this put into words by someone other than myself.