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Porn for women, which is usually softcore and features…abuse of women, is loudly criticized by men and women alike. 50 Shades, 365 Days, Killing Stalking, romance novels, these are all “damaging.” It’s so “worrying” and “concerning” how many female fans there are.

Or at least they get made major fun of. Laughed and ridiculed at.

And the whole “crushing on serial killers” phenomenon, which is the purview of very damaged usually very young girls who have been submerged in a culture that demands their arousal at harm done to them, is also heavily criticized. And degraded.

[Barack Obama voice]: Let me be clear. ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE TERRIBLE. I do not support them and I am the first one to jump in and encourage these critical conversations.

What bugs me is that there is Z E R O criticism of the visual, violent, featuring-real-life-women-being-raped-and-otherwise-tortured porn that almost all men consume, consume frequently, and rewire their brains to via orgasm.

Not a fucking PEEP outside of feminist sites like this one.

Why are there 2839203822 about how insensitive the Dahmer Netflix special is and 0 about the current and ongoing abuse of women in porn? And what that porn leads males to do to other women in their lives?

Not to mention the Dahmer thing is doubly irksome because I haven’t heard a peep about other similar docs, but suddenly one of like two killers who targeted males is being glorified and everyone loses their shit.

Women matter.

Porn for women, which is usually softcore and features…abuse of women, is loudly criticized by men and women alike. 50 Shades, 365 Days, Killing Stalking, romance novels, these are all “damaging.” It’s so “worrying” and “concerning” how many female fans there are. Or at least they get made major fun of. Laughed and ridiculed at. And the whole “crushing on serial killers” phenomenon, which is the purview of very damaged usually very young girls who have been submerged in a culture that demands their arousal at harm done to them, is also heavily criticized. And degraded. [Barack Obama voice]: Let me be clear. ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE TERRIBLE. I do not support them and I am the first one to jump in and encourage these critical conversations. What bugs me is that there is Z E R O criticism of the visual, violent, featuring-real-life-women-being-raped-and-otherwise-tortured porn that almost all men consume, consume frequently, and rewire their brains to via orgasm. Not a fucking PEEP outside of feminist sites like this one. Why are there 2839203822 about how insensitive the Dahmer Netflix special is and 0 about the current and ongoing abuse of women in porn? And what that porn leads males to do to other women in their lives? Not to mention the Dahmer thing is doubly irksome because I haven’t heard a peep about other similar docs, but suddenly one of like two killers who targeted males is being glorified and everyone loses their shit. Women matter.

36 comments

[–] shewolfoffrance 75 points

Or the way women are mocked for liking Harlequin romance novels. They’re being mocked for…wanting a handsome, competent man, who loves them passionately and pleases them sexually.

Meanwhile, mainstream publications are giving advice on how to “safely” strangle women and practice cannibalism fetishes.
[–] scifi 16 points

Yeah, female-written romance/erotica gets made fun of by men and called "unrealistic." Which is actually a great self-burn on their part, because the "unrealistic" expectation is that a man be A) attractive, B) in love with his partner, and C) capable of bringing her to orgasm.
[–] pennygadget 0 points

Yeah, female-written romance/erotica gets made fun of by men and called "unrealistic."

And yet they're too dumb to understand that the porn they watch doesn't accurately reflect female sexuality 🤣
[–] shewolfoffrance 7 points

Bahaha! It’s a total self-burn.

Weird how self-improvement never factors into solving the male loneliness “crisis”.
[–] SpiritsGrimoire 16 points

Women are called shallow for wanting men like that but there's always the hot woman dating the ugly "funny" guy. ECH.

Sure, the romance novels I've read have some misogyny (there's no getting around it ugh) but the men are handsome and would die for the ladies they love... I'm still not over the cannibalism fetish...it's like I forget it exists and then I'm reminded again. :(
[–] shewolfoffrance 10 points

Sure, the romance novels I've read have some misogyny (there's no getting around it ugh) but the men are handsome and would die for the ladies they love

Bingo. And women in real life generally don’t need their male partners to die for them. They just want their partners to take reasonable care of their health and appearance, contribute to the household, and make them feel loved and respected.

And also, a guy with a cannibalism fetish is not fit for human society. Go live alone in the desert and contemplate your sins for fifty years.
[–] DoomedSibyl 3 points

Cannibalism fetishes? Dear god really? Society is broken. This is what men do left unattended.

[–] shewolfoffrance 1 points

Yes. I’d link the relevant Cosmo article, but no decent person really deserves that.
[–] DoomedSibyl 2 points Edited

Cosmo? What the endless blow job articles weren’t degrading and sex slavey enough? Anal sex wasn’t enough? BDSM with the responsibility placed squarely on the woman wasn’t enough? Being coerced and manipulated into every porno perversion wasn’t enough? Now women are supposed to figure out how to indulge cannibalism safely? Well, anything to get a man I guess. Why do we want them again? This world can’t stand long. Sooner or later even the most determined handmaiden is going to wake up and realize that we are playing a rigged game. Feminism needs to focus on women having fair access and ownership of our share of the world’s resources. That we don’t is a big part of how we’re kept enslaved. Truly this is so depressing.

[–] OwnLyingEyes 34 points

Think it's a continuation of the very old concept that women are just fanciful creatures who will just be easily influenced by any silly thing we read, while men are logical and solid and can successfully compartmentalize so well that anything they choose to consume (even day in day out with a Skinner-esque behavioral conditioning reward system in the form of 'orgasming' built in) won't affect them. It's just fantasy they say...even if "some of" those rapes on tape are genuinely real, terrified women being assaulted. 'Sure I find women's terror and pain arousing, but why would that make you think I'm dangerous? Women, amiright?'

And for that they point to how women do seem to be particularly vulnerable to following trends, including harmful ones, and chalk that up to something defective in our minds, instead of considering the possibility that the pressures of sexism affect how costly and dangerous it is for women and girls to swim against the current, and that our access to the resources we need to survive is often restricted to something we can only access through other people, making us much more dependent on staying on the 'good side' of our social networks. Isolated women are vulnerable women...in no small part because a hell of a lot of men eroticize terrorizing us.
[–] DoomedSibyl 2 points

This truly is the reality for the overwhelming majority of women one way or another. I also appreciated your analysis of the fact that men are oblivious to how they’re conditioned via and how emotional they are even though they believe they aren’t. Brilliant and useful feminist analysis of every day life. Love it.

[–] TERVENCORRUPTOR9000 24 points

Lol, right? There is nothing more worrying than all the violent, maladjusted "kinks" that men are into, and yet critising that is "sex-negative" or something. Erotica for women is cringy? Well, all porn is cringy. Ours just doesn't condition us into serial abusers and killers.
[–] platypus 3 points

Romance novels really aren't that bad. Everyone acts like they're pure rape porn, but the vast majority of them are just pleasant little stories about an attractive, nice-smelling man falling hopelessly in love with a woman. A lot of them are religious and don't even involve sex. It's just the fantasy of having a goodlooking man who loves you. Oh no, call the sex police 🙄

Like okay, I guess the omegaverse stuff can be quite kinky? But romance novels run the whole gamut of human expression, basically. Lesbian romance novels are also a huge market.

Also I've never read a het romance novel in its entirety, but much as romance novels get slammed for the whole "bodice-ripper" thing, I don't think I've ever seen an excerpt from a romance novel that actually described anything non-consensual. Basically the headline is "men are filming themselves strangling women during sex and selling it to each other. Meanwhile women are reading books where a sexy pirate might be rough with the woman he loves, or something. idk we've never actually looked."

That being said, even if there is a big hidden audience out there of women idealizing this kind of old-fashioned patriarchal "I'm a man and I take what I want" thing, can you really blame women for internalizing the standards that have been shoved down our throats since birth? Really I don't think the fantasy is "I want to be manhandled" as much as "if I must be manhandled, at least I want the guy to be beautiful, smell nice, and actually love me."
[–] AlwaysOrddu 15 points

I have read true crime for years, it's a fascinating but horrible subject. I have never understood those women who 'fangirl' over serial killers. In these very real stories, it's women who are overwhelmingly the victims, the prey, the hunted. I can understand reading about this subject to try to make some kind of sense of the senseless, but I don't get the 'fandom' culture.

A teen at one of my old jobs struck up a conversation about true crime and asked me "Who's your favorite serial killer?" and I was unable to answer. Who has favorites? Apparently lots of people. Hers was HH Holmes. Fascinating and awful historical case, rife with horrific treatment and killing of women and girls. How could I ever class a man like that as my favorite anything. I can't even watch crime documentaries or shows because I can't handle disturbing images and audio, and I don't like humanizing killers and rapists.

I also don't get eroticizing male-on-female violence. It's bizarre and dangerous. I know several younger women who say they like being strangled (not their words) during sex. I didn't used to believe we lived in a pornsick society, but it's clear that we do.
[–] DietCokeAddict 10 points

Pornsick is the right word - I don’t think those younger women realise how recent the strangling phenomenon is, I’m sure it’s gone from tiny, frowned-upon niche to widespread in only a few years.

While I’m certainly not a fan, if someone asked me my “favourite” serial killer (what a question!) I’d answer Aileen Wuornos… actually no, I’d ask if the questioner had a favourite famous terrorist as well. Or dictator, or pedophile.

[–] BlueToyotaTacoma 6 points

I find Aileen Wuornos fascinating. She had such a terrible life of being abused by men that she felt that killing them was a way to deal with the pain. I’ve found that when men kill they are almost always sociopaths but the few women that do kill tend to be more “justified” in that something pushed them over the edge.
[–] Sailor_Paradise 17 points

Exactly. I see even women call out women for liking stuff like yaoi/bl because it fetishes gay men uwu. However these same women never have that same energy for men fetishizing and degrading lesbians for decades. Like keep the same energy why is it that when women are into their own erotica they get called put for things fetishizing certain men and being cringey. Yet men never get called out for their porn which is often and usually more harmful like petit(aka looks or is an actual child) school porn than "porn" women consume. Any nobody got hurt over some drawn yaoi smut compare to let's say real life porn where a woman gets destroyed by "BBC" Like literally porn stars get brain damage from this shit like the one at twitch com and men try to inflict their sick porn fantasies onto their partners all the time.

[–] MenHaveItEasy 5 points

I sat and watched a yaoi miniseries after outgrowing the whole thing years ago. It was a single dad striking a romance with his kid's babysitter, a freelance Manga artist of similar age. It was cute, romantic, and surprisingly didn't depict women as homewrecking harlots getting in the way of two cute guys hooking up.

There was a scene where the father is feeling up his love interest under a table, after the guy told him he didn't want to be touched. All of the comments pointed out how creepy and inappropriate that was.

Then you check out the comments in hentai made for men and all they can collectively say is, "Why aren't they violating her enough?"
[–] SpiritsGrimoire 1 points

Yo, the comments in one yaoi I read were hilarious...I refuse to read comments on hentai because I'm still horrified that I stumbled upon one where a young woman was talking about how when she was a kid she was gang r*ped by a bunch of men aND THEY FLASH BACKED TO SHOWING IT. IT-WAS-HORRIFIC.

Never watched that sh*t ever again!
[–] no- 9 points Edited

Not to defend toxic romance novels that glamorize abuse, but I think at least some of the criticism of books like Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey comes from incel types who feel threatened by powerful and attractive male stereotypes like the love interests in those novels. I don’t think they’re concerned about women’s safety.
[–] Novemberinthechair 5 points

Oh, with the Twilight criticism from male losers...their whole thing is the werewolf guy bothered to be friends with Bella and she didn't fuck him...friendzone anger.

[–] BlackCirce 🔮🐖🐖🐖 7 points

Don’t forget that just like with Wuornos, Dahmer’s victims were men. So this gives everyone an opportunity to make women feel guilty and evil.

[–] Ruby 11 points Edited

Or the RACISM in how women are categorized and scripted. Am I supposed to really think that has no impact on how men treat women? JFC we're practically collector tokens expected to fulfill some stereotype fetish.
[–] pennygadget 1 points

Or the RACISM in how women are categorized and scripted.

Oh don't get me started on that! SJWs and handmaidens will go on long rants about how The Princess & The Frog and Moana are actually horribly racist because...reasons. And then they'll turn around and defend porn and tell you not to kink shame the White guy who gets off watching porn videos of Black girls getting whipped.
[–] SpiritsGrimoire 2 points

IMO, 365 was a little less "softcore"...like at least Christian (I can't believe I'm writing this) gave Anastasia orgasms her first time...365 was the guy violently face fking women...it's so nasty. I saw a review and it felt like the censored scenes on YT were degrading. HOWEVER- Porn is like 200% worse and I don't like ANY of these stories! I don't care if women like Killing Stalking or softcore porn...it's like whining about "fujo's" I-DON'T-CARE.

Men are STILL strangling women in porn and men turn their ire on women liking some form of porn that's less horrible. It's either because men want women to be pure and not have evil sex thoughts or they want them to be hardcore and like violent anal porn like them. AAAAAAA.

Dummies also thought women were leaving cucumbers all over the floor of the 50 Shades theater and it turns out it was just a prank...when men are masturbating to barely legal women getting strangled...I hate it...
[–] llkit 5 points

My partner's teen girl is interested in true crime and serial killers. As I was at her age. It's a tricky topic really. I've taken the approach of saying, yup watch the Netflix Dahmer program (it's better than googling, it's not hard to find some horrific pictures) but encourage her to reflect on why she's interested. It's partly cos nothing kills a thrill more than an oldie being into it. Also these things become attractive for complex reasons that I don't fully understand, why would a mid teen? At least if we discuss it we can hopefully work through it a bit more as a phase.
[–] platypus 1 points

Recently I read the theory that women are drawn to true crime because so many of us have been subjected to male violence and we want to study it and understand it so we can protect ourselves better.

As a DV survivor I see the logic in that. Sometimes it feels like there's this veneer of sunshine and sparkles on life, but if you just scratch the surface, it's a fucking massacre against women. So when you step into "true crime space" it's like putting aside the façade and facing the difficult thing we (almost) all know to be true.

Of course, falling in love with a serial killer is not a healthy cope. As if that needs to be said. But "identifying with the perpetrator" is also a symptom of trauma.
[–] llkit 1 points

I think there's some truth in that. The kid has recently been very upset (though expressing it rationally and factually) with the abortion decision in America. The Queen was a key role model for her too. I'm encouraging my partner to by her a womens role model book for Christmas. I might just buy it myself but she's had a women's history one from me in the past!

But yep, I think she's becoming aware of the status of women but struggling to express it. She's a smart kid but not very emotionally mature for her age.
[–] proudcatlady [OP] 11 points

I’m interested in it too. I especially like finding out how perps got caught and finding out what their punishment is (usually not much because male). If you’re eroticizing it you’ve lost the plot.

[–] llkit 2 points

She's not, but even if it's not eroticised there's a lurid interest that tends to be more of a woman and girl thing. In my view better to keep it as an in view lurid interest! We shall see...
[–] LonelyKindred 4 points

I think it depends on the person. I was into serial killers and such as an mid-teen too but it was mostly just 'cause I liked gore and wanted inspiration to make my villains more realistic, as I'd recently discovered how much I love writing bad guys at the time (still very much do, but I was new to it) There was no weird fangirling or sex aspects to it except as a joke.

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