I am at the point where I just can't read these articles anymore, they make me too upset. I hate where our world is going.

[–] ElectricBlue 23 points Edited

I hate how the giving nature of women is used against us. Granted that many of these women are in such financial hardship that they are not acting out of free will, but there are also many "professional surrogates" and women having babies for gay male couples etc, who say that they think it's a beautiful thing to give other people the greatest gift of all. It's glamourising women's empathy and culturally ingrained desire to hurt ourselves to benefit other people. I believe as the popularity of surrogacy grows, it will increase people's general perception that women should be grateful for the opportunity to "help" others, and any woman who doesn't like harming herself will be considered a b*tch. (Moreso than now.)

On a personal note, I used to be in support of people having babies in their 40s, because I have friends who were successfully born to older parents, and I've always thought it was a shitty thing about evolution that we are most fertile at ages when we are not at full brain development and still emotionally immature and reckless, compared to people over 30. I thought it was ok to wait until you were emotionally and financially stable to have kids, even if this meant you were 40-45.

Right now, speaking as a 30 year old with a 75 year old dying father and a 68 year old ailing mother, and no siblings to support me, I have decided that I will never ever consider having children after 40. I know many people live much longer than 75, but my father was health conscious all his life, in a long lived family, but still got cancer. It happens. Maybe we feel too young at any age, but I feel way too young to have this problem.

They didn't have me by surrogacy, but I am commenting on the trend among the rich (including people like Rebel Wilson) to have children via surrogacy in their 40s. It may all seem fine now, especially if they have employees to do night feedings and protect them from the aspects of parenthood harder for them for 23-year-olds... but please think of what you're doing to your children! 30 is too young to have ailing 70+ year old parents.

Edit: Sorry, can't believe I wrote this massive essay.

You raise very important considerations there. The flip side of that too, is having to deal with 20 year old offspring trying to launch (or not) and 80 year old parents winding down when you’re in your 60s. I know quite a few Late Boomers stuck in that sandwich.

Caregiving if older parents, or caregiving in general is very, very difficult. It’s one of those things you don’t fully understand until you’ve experienced it. And you’re right, you don’t expect to be coping with this at thirty. I’m so sorry.

I empathize with you. I’m in my early 20s with parents in their 60s. There’s already so many issues now, lack of mobility, pain, illness, medicine schedules, lethargy. I just feel bogged down by the fact that the rest of my adult life will be spent caretaking and eventually mourning. But saying that out loud makes me feel ungrateful and disrespectful :(

You're not wrong. Some of these baby buyers hire surrogates in their 50s or older (i know that was the case for Anderson Cooper and Elton John). It is extremely selfish to have kids that late on purpose. Even if their wealth insulates their kids from most of the struggles of having ailing/elderly parents; its still cruel that they're intentionally having kids who could easily be orphaned before they graduate high school.

I was 35 when I had my first (and likely only). And keeping up with her is a struggle. I wish I could wave a magic wand and somehow have the same child, just five years earlier. I already have worries about what happens if me and my husband have health problems in 10-20 years and she's burdened with our care. I cannot imagine starting over with a new baby after the age of 45

I agree with you on the older parent thing. I am pregnant currently and in my early 30’s. To be completely honest it will be difficult having the kid now because I have a demanding career and won’t make a lot of money for another few years. My husband and I both have parents who had us late 20’s though and we love that they can be such big parts of our lives still. His mom and my dad often even go on trips and do things like hiking, kayaking and other adventuring with us still. We want to be able to have that experience with our kid as well so even though we know it will be a pinch for a few years we decided to have a baby now rather than waiting until complete stability which would likely take me until close to 40. Before reading your comment I never considered much about the parental age factor in regards to surrogacy but it makes a lot of sense that it would take a big toll on kids going through the aging of their parents at younger ages.

[–] ElectricBlue 6 points Edited

Yes to everything you wrote.

I know people have differing health as they age, but I think many people can be complacent of 'Oh I'm very active, I'll be healthy well into my old age.' But my dad led a very healthy lifestyle, but he's dying in his 70s. It happens. There's no way to ensure you'll live into your 80s or 90s so your kids will have you for a long time. There are lots of little ways it can affect you, such as poverty when your parents retire in your teens, and the constant worry that you will be alone in life from very young. You are very young when you lose your grandparents, which is a shame.

A big toll on me, which is very taboo to say, but still true, is the change in their personalities and mental faculties as they become elderly. When I was in my late teens/early 20s, my dad was too tired and emotionally changed to deal with a daughter that young and all the normal problems I had, like moodswings, boyfriend trouble, needing to talk about my emotions, being a generally erratic young person. He was tired and had had enough and didn't like engaging with me. It was very lonely. One ends up being protective of them from very young - in my early 20s, I realised I could not lean on my dad, I had to bottle up my problems and not cause trouble for him. Also because they had their first kid old, I don't have any siblings, so I will soon be very alone.

Sorry, I am going way off topic. I only found out my dad was dying last week, so this is very much on my mind. Tl,dr: a lot of people using surrogates are doing it because they are too old to conceive, and this will eventually hurt the child.

There's no good time to have a children if you are a woman you are always going to be penalized for it, even if you don't have them.

Waiting so you can afford a kid seems logical to me. Also why most people I know waited, they were responsible and broke.

Like you can't blame women for it, it's a complex systemic issue. I'll remember to get good caregiver insurance, as I waited and I didn't choose abject poverty for my kids.

There is never a good time to have kids, but mid 40s is a worse time than mid 30s. Caregiver insurance is a good thing, but doesn't protect from losing both your parents when you are very young. I can assure my worries about my dad dying aren't primarily financial. And yes, I can "blame" people for a decision they make. You're free to disagree with my opinion.

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I've read about something called the "Primal wound" that adopted babies feel, being torn from their mother so shortly after birth. There is some discussion as to how this applies to surrogate babies as well and it makes sense. Also, just having been pregnant, you (most of the time, I know there are exceptions) really bond with your baby while they are in there. They hear your voice every day, they feel your touch, they hear the world as you hear it. And they can hear their dad's voice too, feel his touch, etc. And they respond! You are their whole world.

Ripping a baby away from that intentionally, as is the case with surrogacy, just seems so cruel and thoughtless to me. And to CHOOSE to do it, not because you can't concieve, but because you simply don't want to carry the baby is something that should be roundly shamed in our society. How can you start a child's life with selfishness and vanity? Further, to start that life, you are (in most cases) buying the services of a poorer woman who needs the money to do so. It is dystopian. I am really glad that radical feminism opened my eyes to this because I always said I'd get a surrogate if I couldn't conceive, but, just, no.

[–] pennygadget 5 points Edited

The primal wound can even be observed in dogs and cats. If they don't get to have at least 6-8 weeks with their mother before going to a new home, they tend to grow up with behavior & social problems. Its a documented thing for most mammals. And this evil industry is inflicting this on human children

I've heard so many adoptees talk about wanting to know their birth mother, why she gave them up, wanting to just meet the woman who gave them life and see if there's a connection there. It may be different for people born of surrogates, but I've always imagined they'd have much of the same feelings as adoptees.

I just can't imagine the pain of being the product of surrogacy or being a surrogate who truly bonds with their baby. Regardless of the genetic connection, I think most women would form a bond.

I imagine its confusing to be a surrogacy baby because you have the parent(s) that purchased you. You have egg/sperm donors (who may or may not also be the parents who purchased you). And another separate woman who carried and birthed you! That is a lot more confusion than the normal adoptee situation

Surrogacy is evil to the woman for all the reasons why we feminists push against exploitation and objectification and commodification of women.

But it's also evil to the child. While ethical adoption (not all adoption is) tries to find a safe family for a baby who has lost their mother (because she's died, she's incapacitated, she's missing, she's a vulnerable adult, has lost her rights, etc.), it's done with the goal of centering the child's needs. Surrogacy breaks the mother/child bond ON PURPOSE.

Yep. Surrogacy is baby abuse.

Ethical dog and cat breeders don't separate puppies and kittens from their mothers for eight weeks because being able to nurse and bond with mom is so important to mammals. And when they're taken too soon, they grow up with problems. But the surrogacy industry does this to human infants every day

Also, adoption agencies typically screen prospective parents. As far as I can tell, these surrogacy places usually just give a baby to whoever can afford to buy one. They don't care if the "intended parents" are unstable, have a criminal history, abused previous spouses and/or children, etc as long as the check clears

Do you think I'm very rich places like Dubai birth will be a thing of the past? They all have their babies grown in the global poor and then shipped to their door step, together with the latest Amazon package. Looking at the US, the celebrities there are already going that route. And if automatization continues and only the billionaires continue to profit from those, maybe soon gestating and prostitution will be the only available jobs for women.

Do you think I'm very rich places like Dubai birth will be a thing of the past?

That does seem likely to me. Women married to very rich men know that they are in danger of being replaced with a younger woman, and the pressure to retain one's youthful looks is huge. If these women can "give" the husband children without changing her body and inconveniencing him with additional needs like emotional support and needing rest, I don't see any incentive that would convince them not to.

I'm not 100% sure where religion based misogyny comes into this... I don't know whether that comes down more on the side of seeing pregnancy as unsightly/to be hidden, or of seeing pregnancy as a woman's ideal state. Either of these might affect how the potential baby-buyer wants to be perceived.

I started getting so many surrogacy ads on Facebook lately, it’s obnoxious. I started marking the ads as offensive content. I can completely understand the drive for financial gain from mothers perspective, but it seems like no one is discussing true costs of surrogacy. That reminds me of an article I read about a girl whose parents had her via surrogate, and she mentioned how there was no oversight or psychological evaluation of the parents as you’d see in an adoption case for example. She had a troublesome childhood to say the least.

[–] demonista 8 points Edited

There's been men who're literally convicted child sexual abusers who've been able to get children via surrogate mothers.

I really think men should not be allowed to adopt at all.

I stg I have never met a man with a paternal instinct. Many/most of them do get attached to their children once the child exists, but I have never met a man who seemed to genuinely just have a nurturing interest in children in general (rather than just his own) the way many women do. I've never seen a man instinctively go to help a toddler who falls over, or is running away from their mum or whatever, whereas women instinctively help kids all the time.

I have an ex friend who had a baby via surrogate after 7 or 8 miscarriages. By the time she got a surrogate, her marriage was basically destroyed (her husband is the type to hold the miscarriages against her and is generally a narcissistic asshole) and she was psychologically a mess. She and her husband got addicted to drugs prior to the surrogacy and continue to be addicted. Because they are rich and white nobody will take the child away, despite several calls to CPS and the best efforts of her sister who is willing to raise him. When I look back at this whole situation, I think about how crazy it is that they were allowed to do this. At a minimum, a drug test should be required for the parents!

I know a woman who had twins via surrogate essentially to keep her husband from leaving her as she was infertile. I was like, "Is his sperm worth it?"

I know a woman who had twins via surrogate essentially to keep her husband from leaving her as she was infertile. I was like, "Is his sperm worth it?"

Not to mention the fact that, if a marriage is already strained, the stress of a new baby (or TWO new babies) is only going to make it worse

There isn’t really any oversight of adopters in adoption either. There’s paperwork that is mostly for show. And there isn’t any oversight once the adoption is finalized, either in commercial infant adoption or in foster adoption. Don’t believe the hype. Infant adoption is the original surrogacy.

I got some surrogacy ads on Instagram after I had my kid and started searching & liking motherhood content. Its like they're saying, "We confirmed that you can birth a live baby! Want to enslave your womb to some rich asshole for 9 months?"

An increasing number of women are turning to work as commercial surrogates in countries such as Georgia and Mexico amid growing global demand and the promise of good earnings.

But its totally not exploitation, y'all!

Dilara is one of a growing number of women turning to commercial surrogacy as a source of income amid swelling global demand for carriers.

"Carriers". Not women. Not people. "Carriers"

That demand is driven primarily by so-called intended parents in wealthy, Western nations. Many of these are seeking cross-border surrogacy services to avoid long waiting lists or higher fees at home, or because domestic laws forbid surrogacy or exclude particular groups — such as gay couples — from the practice. The end of Covid-19 travel bans also led to an increase in global surrogacy demand last year.

"Its too hard and expensive to exploit poor women domestically! So we wanna exploit the women in other countries instead!"

"Here in Mexico, we’re having again the boom around surrogacy, because Ukraine is closed,” Ernesto Noriega, chief executive and founder of Egg Donors Miracles, a fertility agency based in Cancun, Mexico, said, noting a 20%-30% increase in surrogacy arrangements last year.

Its insane that rich assholes didn't learn their lesson from the sudden war in Ukraine and how it displaced and endangered many surrogates and babies.

I guess it doesn't matter because those women and children are just merchandise

Lauragh from southeast Ireland, whose son was born in Oct. 2021, said her surrogate was able to buy a home for herself and her two daughters in Ukraine with her earnings from the program.

Whatever helps you sleep at night, honey

In many cases, a surrogate may earn less than a quarter of the tens of thousands of dollars charged to intended parents.

No shit, Sherlock

"If you speak to surrogates, they say that this is quite empowering,” Pysana said. “They have a feeling that they’re doing something great.”

Of course they say it's empowering! They need to get PAID! And I wouldn't be surprised if they had to sign contracts that forbid them from bad mouthing their surrogacy experience!

It's so empowering. I see so many wealthy women becoming surrogates because it's just so empowering! /s

I will believe that surrogacy is empowering when Kim Kardashian agrees to be a surrogate for the woman who cleans her toilets.

It's very concerning to me as this children are very vulnerable. If it were up to me every one of those kids would be mandatorily followed up till 18. It's child adoption without any of the safekeeping.