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I am reading an interesting book at present titled "When Women Were Priests" by Karen Jo Toriesen which examines how women originally held an important role in religion which was gradually removed by the efforts of the Roman Catholic Church, Paul, any person who decided which books were omitted from The Bible, etc.

It pretty well debunks the statement about "no female mythological models", especially as if you look at the Elysiuan mysteries, the real maenads of Ancient Greece and who originally mixed the communion wine etc.

I think that the so-called "magical power" of women had a great deal to do with childbirth and pregnancy. I believe that in ancient times, women had quite a bit of control over their reproductive lives, up to and including infanticide. I think birth control was available and used, that women found ways to ease the pain of childbirth, and made many bedside decisions regarding the fate of abnormal infants, among other "powers". Eventually, men found ways to object to these powers, and to strip women of their knowledge and use. Killing all the old women would certainly be one way to do it. I think the widespread use of female genital mutilation is another.

[–] sunhatpat 0 points Edited

No wonder femicide persists in the modern era! Its roots appear to be very old indeed.

[–] veryllama [OP] 15 points Edited

Btw, this is not to say that the author is a feminist. The book begins with a chapter called The Great Goddess, which begins like this :

"Many of the difficulties that women face today follow from the fact that they are moving into a field of action in the world that was formerly reserved for the male and for which there are no female mythological models. The woman finds herself, consequently, in a competitive relationship with the male, and in this may lose the sense of her own nature. She is something in her own right, and traditionally (for some four million years) the relationship of that something to the male has been experienced and represented, not as directly competitive, but as cooperative in the shared ordeal of continuing and supporting life. Her biologically assigned role was to give birth to and to rear children. The male role was to support and protect. Both roles are biologically and psychologically archetypical. But what has happened now—as a result of the masculine invention of the vacuum cleaner—is that women have been relieved, in some measure, of their traditional bondage to the household. They are moving into the field and jungle of individual quest, achieve- ment, and self-realization, for which there are no female models. Moreover, in pur- suing their distinct careers they are emerging progressively as differentiated per- sonalities, leaving behind the old archetypal accent on the biological role—to which, however, their psyches are still constitutionally bound. "

Also, Mary Daly refers to this male stamping out of natural female power, and how this has occurred in many different ways, historically. The biggest example she gives which I can think of off the top of my head is the European witchcraze. And now it continues to be practiced in "progressive" countries, such as the U.S. in many ways, notably psychologically. Female power is exterminated/bent in the mind before women can actualize themselves. She claims we live in a patriarchal, psychological maze, which keeps us from directly accessing our innate power/spiritual power (Daly was spiritual). After all, psyche comes from the Greek word for soul.

Also the 19th century, as doctors strived to replace midwives, "at the Vienna General Hospital between 1844 and 1848. . . . The hospital was one of the largest in the world for teaching, and its maternity wing was so big that it was divided into two wards: one for doctors and their students and one for midwives and their students.

Yet there was a stark disparity between these wards.

Between 1840 and 1846, the maternal mortality rate for the midwives’ ward was 36.2 per 1000 births, while the mortality rate for the doctors’ ward was 98.4 per 1000 births, according to a 2013 article in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine. Specifically, the doctors’ ward had a higher rate of “childbed fever,” now known as streptococcal infection. Semmelweis started to look for any differences between the wards." (history.com, though I read an article on this years ago).

The difference was that the midwives washed their hands between births and/or were attending only at births, while the all-male doctors rushed about importantly, coming form other wards to the maternity and birthing babies, hands unwashed, meanwhile infecting the women giving birth (it was called puperal fever at the time).

Just another example of men 1) invading a woman's only area and 2) fucking it up.

Blacksmiths have a similar old lore; women originally held the secrets of how to work iron, until men stole them. It used to be considered bad luck to let a woman touch the anvil. If a woman whistled in the forge the magic would leave the anvil, the smith would have to break it and make a new one.

I never knew that but I'd love to read more about it, do you by chance know any books or sources that talk more about this? Always thought blacksmithing was always a boys' club.

It is a boys club,thats all I was able to find out! I was told by the smith never to whistle in the forge, I asked why and thats what he told me.

Not a fan of religion or "magic" myself.

Careful. I've been getting jumped on by radfems for saying magic doesn't exist lol

You are seeing this too narrowly, I think. "Magic" can refer to pretty much any knowledge that is not universally known.

Men certainly have stolen a lot of knowledge from women. Brewing beer used to be a female profession, and we know baking was done by women until it became profitable. (The two are connected because the knowledge of sourdough and yeast may well have been seen as "magic" once upon a time.)

As for accessing our innate spiritual power ... I don't know about that, but I know a lot of women are not free even in their own heads, their very thoughts being subjugated by the patriarchy.

If I believed in magic, I would totally consider the trans-insanity an evil spell. It is very hard to believe that usually intelligent people can believe something as absurd as the claim that men can be women without being put under a confundus charm ...

They were literally talking about actual magic and goddesses though and that women have innate magical power.

Careful. I've been getting jumped on by radfems for saying magic doesn't exist lol

I will never understand the radfem hate on this website.

I also wasn't aware that so many radfems were supposedly into witchcraft.. . .? People keep saying it and yet I never see it. Is this stuff happening in a circle I don't frequent or something?

There are a few of us here, but I certainly haven't seen anybody attacking others for their beliefs. From my understanding the majority of women here are atheist. I just happen to be a spiritual person and Dianic Wicca appeals to me because it's the only spiritual practice that isn't controlled by men. I'm not sure why people are trying to make it into a big deal either way. This is one of those things that a live and let live approach is best.

It's a thing apparently. Like, I don't really care about someone's personal beliefs. If you think women inherently have witchcraft and Hekate exists, I think thats weird, but fine. But what I can't stand is when they try to tell me I'm a bad feminist or don't know what I'm talking about for not thinking women can literally do magic. Which was essentially what happened

Semi-related due to women wielding magic: anyone watching Wheel of Time? It's so good

Is there a polytheistic religion or belief that has only male deities?

Strangely,I’ve had this thought pop into my head since I was a teenager, never heard these stories before, but my theory is women ran everything and one day the males had enough and rose up and killed them taking the younger females, didn’t allow them to gain any strength, then they bred weaker daughters as a result. They destroyed any historical reference to the old world, and stories were rewritten to be male dominated and female oppressed. I’m also willing to bet the Vatican has evidence of this history stored in their libraries which is why no one is allowed to see them.

One good piece of evidence for this is actually adam and eve. This is a creation myth, and in it adam loses 2 ribs creating a first wife who is later scrapped in favour of a second wife, eve.
Creation myths aren't just there to tell tall tales, they were ancient attempts at explaining our world, existence and the differences between us.
Who has a smaller ribcage? Men or women?
I think it makes sense that the story of adam and eve would have eve naturally being created first and man being created from her body. The ancients weren't idiots, they will have understood women are the starting point of creation and will have been trying to rationalise how and why men came to exist too. Like a chicken/egg discussion.
They will also have wanted to explain why womens bodies are smaller than men's and yet we have the important role of birthing all human life.
I've been convince of this for years.

I've seen this theory before with (female) authors who retell the Arthurian legends. In their version, it was the women of the Old Religion who controlled everything and Arthur was just a puppet who became glorified latter simply because he was male.