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Activism ReportWikipedia Improvement Project
Posted August 9, 2023 by Mikkal in Activism

I've been working on Wikipedia with a few goals of horrible POV pushing that needed to be improved... and succeeded. Not as much as I'd like, but a few things needed to be done and they are done. I don't want to share my account, or what I did specifically, because I reverted something someone did was sneaky and don't want them noticing (they are banned but have friends watching their pages, preventing anyone from undoing the POV they were pushing, so I found ways to work around it fixing things they aren't watching).

Instead - I wanted to share some strategies I've been using, and encourage people who want to stay out of the limelight to have a project they can contribute too.

The truth is, Wikipedia is a ghost town. There are a few editors making decisions that have huge ramifications, and people are starting to notice and speak up.

In particular, there was a discussion about how reliable a news site was, 12 people commented, 3 said it should be blocked - and that local, Spanish news site is now blocked from being used as a source anywhere on Wikipedia. Someone noticed, and it's clearly going to be overturned, but it's starting a discussion on how few editors are making huge editorial decisions for the site which has been sorely needed.

That's where you come in. Don't fight over individual articles, individual words - become an editor, learn the rules, follow the notice boards, and once you're experienced you can make a difference. Trust me - the past few years, people with other specific points of view have done just that.

Another example of places with no participation is the "articles for deletion", the same article gets relisted to build a consensus every week, to the point they are listed 3 or 4 times, because no one will come in and say "no we should keep it, it's notable and this is why" or "delete this one, I can't find any sources to support keeping it".

So, I'd like to make a post about how to participate in Wikipedia and be successful to encourage people to join.

But I'd like to ask new users to stay away from LGBT adjacent articles until you are experienced and can keep your cool, as some of the pages have a group of 20 - 25 Edit Warriors "guarding" them. You'll know you hit one if you make a small change, it's reverted, a group of people frantically come to a "consensus" on the talk page to prevent you from making changes. Once someone sets them off, it's hard to make any changes to the articles at all, they call in all their friends, but there are ways to get past the guards.

Step 1, search the bar for "WP:Consensus" and read that rule.

The first thing is on Wikipedia is "Consensus". - you vote, but you don't vote. And that's super confusing. It's called "consensus" - if I come in, and say "yes I agree", that's a vote. If I come in and say "yes I agree, because per Wikipedia's rules (here) and (here)..." that vote counts more. I'm explaining myself. If you see groups of people saying "i totally agree!" - generally that's a sign someone is asking people to come "vote" and it's something that is supposed to be ignored... well, supposed to be right?

If you are a former religious person who could quote scripture, Wikipedia is for you, because trust me, you'll get "per WP:X" in all your conversations.

One thing I want you to note is that editors on an article can NOT form a consensus to OVERIDE policy. That's a mistake people seem to make, that editors can just do what they want as long as their friends 'help them vote' for it. Unfortunately - it's working right now - because WP doesn't have enough users to overturn those little brigades of friends.

Step 2, reliable sources. Search the bar for "WP:Verifiability" and read that rule. Next, look up "WP:RS/P"

The basic idea is that everything is supposed be sourced, and we want to look at the most reliable sources. So - that's why people pushing specific POVs are hounding the reliable sources boards, to say "ban this source". For instance, saying "unheard" as a site isn't reliable, because they publish unpopular opinions. (I'm not kidding, that was a real discussion). The reliable sources, perinneal sources will let you see what you're up against - everything 'conservative' is biased, everything liberal is reliable. There is a search to look up previous discussions about sources too.

You also need to be able to make citations, and that's a bit tricky. An article is supposed to have a body that's long and everything in it has in-line citations. The lead is supposed to be a summary of the article.

Everyone fights over the lead constantly. Skip it. Write the article. Avoid removing content, that will get you flagged. You change a word in the lead and the Edit Warriors will appear an any chance you had of making that article neutral are gone.

Let's say you see an article that says "XYZ is a horrible person" - that should obviously be removed. Don't do it. Add content instead, and do it bit by bit. Do not do a massive overhaul. Add three sentences, describe it in your edit summary, save. Make another small change, describe it in your edit summary, save. Edit summaries make people respect you more - do it.

Oh and maybe in one of those edits, you make the change to the article you actually wanted to do. But it's in the midst of such a massive improvement to the article, that the change of an Edit Warrior coming in to block you is reduced, especially if the rest is just great, respectable, neutral information that isn't written from a specific point of view.

It's much harder to justify reverting a series of edits, especially when you're respecting other users contributions by not removing what they've added, when you're adding good material, etc.

Another thing you can do is really read the existing sources carefully, and add material only from the existing sources on the page. I've had people remove anything I've added from a new source, but if I add in neutral information from a source that was used to pull negative information from... they've left it.

Remember the edit warriors aren't making real objects, they are pushing a POV. So, you add a source, they object! It's not a good source! All their friends will swoop and say it's not a good source! But, this horrible article saying "This person is so bad, so so so bad, oh here is a neutral thing or two..." bam pull the neutral things in. It's harder for them to argue when it's a source already on the page.

"BOLD, revert, discuss cycle" is an essay - not a policy, not a guideline - but it's a great start to understand how to make changes, and what to do if someone reverts it. Go to the talk page, discuss it - but if you run afoul of the EDIT Warriors, it may be best to drop that article and work on something else. "WP:EDITCONSENSUS" on the other hand - that's a policy, and it describes something similiar.

... I've seriously made edits I couldn't make years ago, due to some Fandom Warrior on the page, because they are no longer around protecting the page. Wait them out.

Step 3

Use an account. You shouldn't edit anything that is a "conflict of interest" - someone you know, your company, etc. People can declare a Conflict of Interest and ask other users to make changes.

  • Have a neutral name that doesn't identify you as female. The majority of editors are male and being identifiable female makes you venerable to abuse.
  • Create a "user page", it should be short and avoid anything personal or anything that states an opinion, but you might add something innocent like "I love photography" or "Mountains are beautiful". When you comment on a talk page, sign it with four ~~~~ - this links your name to your username, if it's red, that means you don't have a user page, and people tend to discount what you say more strongly. But I also strongly believe in following good privacy guidelines about your user page and don't disclose anything personal.
  • Avoid mentioning your personal opinions on things.
  • Warning: If two people from the same IP address comment together somewhere, and it's reported and they find you sharing an IP address, it doesn't matter if you are actually two people, you will get banned for being a sockpuppet. Never work on articles together with people you live with, no matter how tempting, and avoid getting on WP from your phone/laptop where other people might be editing. I seriously know someone who was banned when their wife was reported as a sock puppet - obviously they were two people, but they had the same IP address and were banned, because they commented on the same discussion in agreement ONCE, even after being an editor with tons of good contributions for YEARS, this one shocked me.
  • Never discuss another editor's behavior, only the topic at hand. A female editor mentioned "I think there are editors working together and it's frustrating" in a few places, and it was reported as being "mean" and has been escalated to the highest authority at Wikipedia to make a decision on her "behavior". I'm pretty shocked on this one, as she posted the most mild comments and I routinely see much worse every day. She's a long term editor and I saw people gloating about her "getting her just deserts" on twitter.
  • If you make a lot of enemies, see above point, it might be worth it to burn your account following the new procedures for it.

Step 4

Never Edit War. You can get banned for it. Search for 'WP:3RR' in the wikipedia search bar and be aware that's how most newbies get blocked or banned, and people will purposely work together to lead you into a violation so they can report you can get you blocked, preserving their control over an article.

Other recommendations:

  • There are "contentious topics" where editor's behavior is under extra scrutiny. Many of the articles have blocks for 6 month old accounts with 500 edits. Stay away from them. Everything to do with India or South Asia is an insane minefield right now. Any current event - Covid? Oh no, stay away from that. Anything to do with Gender or LGBT topics is going to get people scrutinizing your account. Stay away from those as a new user, come back when you're experienced. Once the "frenzy" of a topic is over... the articles become easier to clean up later on.
  • Every user has a talk page that exists for other users to come tell you how you broke a rule, or warn you about rules. Most people who leave comments will do so in an extremely rude manner. You have to be tough about this. However: Read what they link you too, and keep in mind: Is it a Guideline or a Policy?.... or an Essay. People love to post Essays to new users accounts to make them think they've broken a rule, but essays aren't rules per se, they are suggestions. But people love to throw an essay at you and tell you to shut up or they will report you... and they are bluffing, you've done nothing wrong. But, you also won't be able to stop a group of EDIT Warriors by yourself; sometimes you just have to walk away.
  • Personalize your settings so when you edit an article you do NOT automatically "watch" it. Instead, manually watch articles you care about. But you might want to un-watch something with a heated discussion and "walk away" for now. I find that I don't want to know every time someone does something stupid, it just leads to fights that will waste your time. Don't do it.

If you are an experience editor, please watch the Neutral Point of View Noticeboard and the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. When people have an issue on a page, they are supposed to post to those noticeboards, but only a few editors are providing advice... and those editors have a specific POV. If you're experienced, you can make a huge difference being a part of those boards.

Note, if you are completely new, please feel free to message me, and I'll give you a project that needs a lot of work with no editors working on it that you can use to learn your way around - there are enough people watching the "recent changes" to generate feedback on your edits, without you running into someone who doesn't want you touching THEIR PAGE and warring with you.

What I'd love advice on is a better understanding of how to report problem users. I am starting by documenting edits and keeping track of names so if there is a pattern over time, I can report them - but that also puts a target on your back if you do it.

41 comments

[Deleted]December 12, 2022

You're describing what most lesbians in my experience put up with too, especially

It's like everyone assumes bi women prefer men and have no sexual boundaries.

Everyone assumes lesbians are just defective straight women, who have been "made" lesbian by trauma, or are too ugly to find a man.

I'm a lesbian in the UK, and this is also my experience on apps to a T - I'm pretty confident you aren't receiving this experience because your profile says bisexual unfortunately :( happily, IRL I've managed to meet some great girls. Are you able to travel and go on women only travelling experience holidays? They tend to be jam packed full of lesbians.

FormalWheelsfrustratedfebfemDecember 12, 2022

Ugh I'm so sorry people are so homophobic. I am a febfem but not because of trauma with men. I just prefer women and I rather not date my oppressor class (men)

No travel wouldn't be possible for me.

[Deleted]December 12, 2022

I just prefer women and I rather not date my oppressor class (men)

Good for you! It's nice to hear bisexual women saying this :)

I'm so sorry to hear travel wouldn't be possible for you. Hopefully in the future you'll encounter someone great in your country or be able to travel and meet someone. If you ever wanna talk to a friendly (at least I hope I am) person, I'm here and there are loads of other great women on Ovarit.

FormalWheelsfrustratedfebfemDecember 12, 2022

Thank you so much I wish all the best for you too.

drdeeisbackDecember 12, 2022(Edited December 12, 2022)

How do you confirm any given event/trip will be female only? I had a fantastic time at an all-women retreat a couple of years ago, but the women who run it aren't willing to confirm that their events are female-only and I don't want to risk booking with them again, as they're in a remote area and I don't drive so would be stuck there if anything happened (I guess I was just lucky the first time).

[Deleted]December 12, 2022

This is the issue, you can't :( Howwweever, anecdotally in my experience, I've booked onto female only travelling trips to different countries (hiking and sightseeing), never encountered a TIM.

sealwomynDecember 12, 2022(Edited December 12, 2022)

Sister, I know it probably doesn't help much to know that us lesbians' experience is very similar, but please take heart. You're not alone and even though we women who only seek other women are a minority of the population we manage to find each other. I think a lot of bi women are like straight women in that they see relationships with men as real, lasting, and adulthood status symbols and haven't really confronted their internalized homophobia around their ability to form relationships with women. I support febfems all the more because giving up and settling for some ain't shit man is the "easy route" for bi women.

I wonder if it would help, since you said you live in a small country, if you could find any holdout lesbian and gay organizations from previous generations by researching the history of gay rights in your country? I live in a Southern state of the US and so there are still remnants of underground women's networks despite the best efforts of both bible thumpers and trans invaders - I found several other lesbians my age through my research and asking around after old school radical feminist groups and events. You will still meet the occasional poli les especially among the older crowd but at least there are no men and nobody's boyfriends (Ed: and some of the nominally captured groups are so full of old activist lesbians that TIMs stay away and look for their hunting grounds to prey on baby lesbians elsewhere).

FormalWheelsfrustratedfebfemDecember 13, 2022

"they see relationships with men as real, lasting, and adulthood status symbols" oopp this! I felt this when I was dating a woman I felt as if my family saw it as a juvenile relationship until I dated the "real thing" which is men.

And I'll try your advance thank you!

stern-as-steelDecember 13, 2022

I live in a Southern state of the US and so there are still remnants of underground women's networks despite the best efforts of both bible thumpers and trans invaders - I found several other lesbians my age through my research and asking around after old school radical feminist groups and events.

I found this really interesting - how did you go about doing this research and finding them? (since they were underground)

[Deleted]December 14, 2022
vampires_teabagDecember 13, 2022(Edited December 13, 2022)

Second the advice to put febfem, or just "looking for a woman" on your profile, you can explain your sexuality and decisions as part of getting to know someone. But I think unfortunately you are hitting some of the issues even lesbians have, men dont respect women's sexuality or desires regardless of what we say, you are going to get them bothering you anywhere that is not strictly vetted. I am sorry other bi women are up your butt about dating men, swatting away men is part of wlw dating but its very demoralizing other women who are supposedly interested in women are telling you to do it, I think if only to stop them bothering you you should maybe take "bisexual" off your profile.

I met my long term partner in a facebook group, lol, it might be worth joining as many casual online LGBT spaces in your area as you can tolerate, even ones that are not devoted to dating, if you join a bunch you can figure out which ones are more or less queer oriented, and get leads on making friends who might introduce you to more IRL and online groups, and maybe your future wife :)

Its also very common for people who are gay dating to date long distance or even very long distance, my wife was across the US at the time I met her, lol. If there are other nearby countries where you know the language, or where there are people from your country there, consider checking out groups there too.

[Deleted]December 12, 2022

I've given up on dating. Was easier for me to come to terms with being single and learning to enjoy the freedom of a single life than to keep sifting through the spicy straight, scrote in a skirt soup that is "lesbian" dating sites. Which was super hard, as I've always been a hopeless romantic who has yearned to find "the one" but the fact of the matter is, the queer movement has destroyed the LGB and for me, it just wasn't worth the agony anymore, especially after getting "catfished" (does it count as catfishing when a man photoshops his pictures to look female and acts cagey about having a penis, yet is allowed to stay on the platform because TWAW lol?) by a TIM.

I can say though, if you are just looking for friends, I enjoy Club Monocle, which is extremely great at vetting males. It does have a dating section, but there is only 1 other gay woman within a 100 mile radius of me so I don't bother. But it's still nice to chat with others.

FormalWheelsfrustratedfebfemDecember 12, 2022

That's what I think is best for me to. I am also a hopeless romantic but maybe it's best for me to be single too though I find it lonely. Especially after dating my two toxic/abusive ex gf's. Honestly if I attract toxic women I would hate to see what kind of men I'd attract.

I'm sorry you were catfished too.

[Deleted]December 12, 2022

Thank you for recommending Club Monocle, I'd never heard of it! Downloading now :)

proudcatladybiDecember 12, 2022

Are bisexuals allowed on club monocle?

cyrusDecember 14, 2022

Based on what is written on the website it's only for lesbians. They're making new sites for other LGB people though.

PaperDelusionsJanuary 5, 2023(Edited January 5, 2023)

Women on the other hand try to pressure me to be "open" to trying guys

Well, misery likes company! Also please don't give up and kudos for you to being open about your sexual orientation + dating preferences! There are lesbians that will date a febfem.

Btw It's hard for us lesbians too, I found myself a bisexual female-leaning girlfriend and I frankly love her so much. I'm not from a super woke country and things were different when we met years ago

FormalWheelsfrustratedfebfemJanuary 5, 2023

Thank for your reply!

I am happy to hear about you and your girlfriend!

platypusDecember 13, 2022(Edited December 13, 2022)

In my experience, dating sites/apps are an extremely difficult way to form romantic relationships. They're set up like a meat market, it's really hard to bond with someone in that kind of forced context. And with the added difficulties of being bi or lesbian, and then dealing with all the trans shit... It's almost impossible.

That being said, I've done my share of online dating. But it really takes a community. You need a forum, a Discord server, some "place" to give you context and a focus aside from "am I romantically interested in this person." We don't really discover who someone is until we see them interacting with the world, and it takes time to really "feel someone out." It's much much easier to do this in a "community" setting.

WitchPleaseDecember 12, 2022

I tried the febfem route and was pretty unsuccessful too. There aren't many options in my area, pretty conservative smallish city, but the rare women in dating apps are either she/theys TRAs, or mostly women with boyfriends looking for threesomes. Also lots of men who set their profiles as W4W just to match with bisexuals. I haven't gone on a date in about three years.

The first time I tried dating apps to find women was nearly 10 years ago and there wasn't so many poly women looking for a third, and almost no TW or she/theys. Now it's all there is. I gave up.

Another thing I noticed that changed in the past decade is that the WLW I used to see looked... normal. Now it's filled with highly sexualised pictures with lots of make up and filters. I'm completely turned off by that.

I'm still willing to date men, but I set my standards pretty high, so I can't find anyone either.

FormalWheelsfrustratedfebfemDecember 12, 2022

oh yeah about the makeup and filters thing. I prefer femmes but not ones caked with makeup and filters on that's off-putting for multiple reasons.

There was a man I really liked he was very attractive, bi, seemed sweet but then revealed himself to be another moid with a misogynistic fetish that stole my content then blocked me solidified me being febfem.

WitchPleaseDecember 12, 2022

Men in dating apps seem to be the worst. Looking at the men I went out with in the past that were worth my while, they were all men who were not particularly looking for anyone. Meeting people in person where I am now is tough. I don't know any lesbians here, and bi women I know are way too young for me, and all handmaidens, and the few men in my age group that aren't completely trash are already in relationships. The single ones are single for a reason.

I feel lonely often, but I can cope with it. It's better being alone than to settle for what's available. I miss backpacking. I met some interesting people when travelling, although circumstances never really allowed things to developed further than a fling.

FormalWheelsfrustratedfebfemDecember 12, 2022

I feel the opposite is true for me all the normie lesbian/bi women are too old for me. All the ones around my age are gendies.

Yeah covid has really made things shit for everyone.I have joined social groups one which is lead by a lesbian couple which is great and helps me feel less lonely. I hope you find happiness soon.

proudcatladybiDecember 12, 2022

That sounds absolutely awful. I’m sorry you’re going through this. Maybe people would have a little more decency in person? A lot of actual WLW will tolerate queerios in the hopes of meeting another actual WLW so you could meet someone there in spite of the bullshit?

FormalWheelsfrustratedfebfemDecember 12, 2022

That's what my original plan was when going to the queerio event. But most of the girls there were bi women with bfs. There was only one lesbian couple where both were non binary/they/thems.

proudcatladybiDecember 12, 2022

Ugh. Giggle is a TERFy woman-only platform with a dating app component. Have you tried that one?

A lot of this is gonna be because you’re bi. And I don’t know a way around that. But I wish you the best of luck and to find your future wife! There are women out there who will be right for you. They’re just so rare it’s hard to find. :(

FormalWheelsfrustratedfebfemDecember 12, 2022

I'm not sure if giggle is available in my country.

It's hard to explain yes im bi but I don't date men. No I am not a lesbian. Lesbian's aren't attracted to men and I am I just don't want to date them. No I won't change my mind nor am i "missing out" or "suppressing myself" by not dating men. In fact I feel that way if I did date men instead of women.

It is no wonder why some bi women identify as lesbians and write away their attraction to men as "comphet" so people don't pressure them as much to date men.

proudcatladybiDecember 12, 2022

I completely agree. I wish we had a stronger term for febfem to be equated with lesbians when we are funxfioning in society the exact same way a lesbian would. There is no actual functioning difference honestly and I wouldn’t want to be with a woman who would care whether I was internally bisexual or anything, but it is what it is and you gotta be upfront about it to avoid that anyway.

Wish you were having a better time.

FormalWheelsfrustratedfebfemDecember 13, 2022

Thank you. I understand the wariness around dating bisexual women as I have had many bad experiences with them despite being by myself. So many bi women are het-leaning, homophobic, libfem etc. Not all bi women but it has gotten to the point i would only date bi women if they are febfems or radfem leaning.

cyrusDecember 14, 2022

I guess the fact that bisexual women are attracted to men does change how they function in society. Especially how other people treat bi women and how they view themselves. Bisexual women will always have the option to be with men, or as Lindsey Ellis said "opt out." I think that will always be a big difference between a febfem and a lesbian.

I've seen some of the most man-hating febfems will have one off dates or hookups with men but they usually write it off as a momentary laps in judgement. I don't know if that takes their febfem card away or not?

Why do you think febfem isn't a strong enough term? It's very straight to the point but I'm not bi so maybe I'm missing something.

proudcatladybiDecember 15, 2022

I don’t think it’s strong enough because apparently some people think it includes hooking up with men

cyrusDecember 15, 2022

How would a different word change that?

proudcatladybiDecember 16, 2022

It would be associated with women who do not hook up with men. Unlike febfem, which apparently is associated with women who do.

Although at this rate even lesbian is now associated with women who sleep with men so maybe it’s all pointless

cyrusDecember 16, 2022

Although at this rate even lesbian is now associated with women who sleep with men so maybe it’s all pointless

lol as long as they say they have comphet or the man is a TIM then it's fine apparently.

I'm sure many febfems would say those women can't call themselves that since it's supposed to be female exclusive.

What would you call it then?

cyrusDecember 14, 2022

Lying about being a lesbian will definitely not take the pressure to date men away. For some it makes it even worse as men see you as more of a challenge and now we have transbians going after us more than ever before.

LilithDecember 12, 2022(Edited December 12, 2022)

Have you tried taking the "bisexual" part out and just writing "Woman seeking woman" or something along similar lines? It may reduce some of the men and couples you're matching with and reduce the hostility from lesbians. You just need to have that conversation "BTW I was wondering how you would feel about dating bisexuals? I'm a female-exclusive bisexual. I don't have any interest in dating men but I still identify as a bisexual."

Other than that. Just know that no one is having fun on dating apps. So many women have given up on them.

FormalWheelsfrustratedfebfemDecember 12, 2022

Yeah I changed my label to febfem for a bit I have taken a break from dating. If women didnt know what it meant they could ask me or google it.

[Deleted]January 27, 2023
[Deleted]December 12, 2022