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There have been some topics that have caused continued confusion on the site. One is the misconception that some people have had that Ovarit is a women-only website (that users are all women, or that men are told not to register or somehow are barred, or that men are site-banned for admitting they are men). This is not the case. It's not that we didn't consider trying it, it's that we considered it and decided not to do that.

This disappoints some, but we did make sure this was stated in our documentation before we launched.

We require that moderators are women. The Ovarit admins are radical feminist women. Communities must be women-centered, but we do not currently believe that we have to somehow ban every male from the site to achieve that. We do not believe it is possible on a site like this to do that. All posts and comments are public to anyone on the internet, and although we currently have invite codes, they are not permanent and eventually anyone will be able to register an account. This is, ultimately, a public internet forum. This is not a "safe space," though it will always be women-run and women-centered.

We do not have policies on banning people for their characteristics - or supposed characteristics. We cannot actually know user's characteristics, only what they claim their characteristics are. Policies have to be based on something observable, like a user's actions on the site. Banning men for admitting they are men, is in function, making a rule that men cannot tell the truth about being men. Men who lie remain. We have a lot of experience banning men for failing to avoid breaking the most basic of rules. We believe banning men for rule-breaking behavior is sufficient, and wastes less of our time.

We have no intention on creating shadow policies that are not published. We're not Reddit.

Ovarit is a platform for different communities. We are trying to keep our scope broad enough that we can platform a variety of communities that appeal to women with a broad range of ideas. This means giving moderators as much control over the circles they moderate as possible while still maintaining our Mission.

We are not trying to create a hive of group think. The only way to avoid a group think spiral is to permit a range of ideas and disagreement. This means we have to be careful about the things we say "no" to with each additional constraint we give to moderators.

If you think a user is breaking the rules, or if you think a circle isn't in line with the site Mission or rules, you can message the relevant moderators, or if necessary, you can send a private message to one of the admins. (A feature to message all mods of a circle or all the admins will be added eventually, but admins already discuss all relevant messages as a group).

Starting threads calling out specific users or specific circles is not in line with our culture. We do not wish to have a culture where public call out posts bully or shame users or pressure moderators into complying with a narrow view they did not sign up for.

Civility is a rule in the meta circles. Policies are up for discussion - do not make it personal, though.

Edit: For clarification, each circle can add rules on top of the site-wide rules. Circles can make rules prohibiting men from posting.

There have been some topics that have caused continued confusion on the site. One is the misconception that some people have had that Ovarit is a women-only website (that users are all women, or that men are told not to register or somehow are barred, or that men are site-banned for admitting they are men). [This is not the case.](https://www.ovarit.com/wiki/about) It's not that we didn't consider trying it, it's that we considered it and [decided not to do that.](https://www.ovarit.com/o/Suggestions/2539/should-ovarit-be-a-women-only-space/ab3ad32b-edb0-4677-bbd9-4bd6488f5170#comment-ab3ad32b-edb0-4677-bbd9-4bd6488f5170) This disappoints some, but we did make sure this was stated in our documentation before we launched. We require that moderators are women. The Ovarit admins are radical feminist women. Communities must be women-centered, but we do not currently believe that we have to somehow ban every male from the site to achieve that. We do not believe it is possible on a site like this to do that. All posts and comments are public to anyone on the internet, and although we currently have invite codes, they are not permanent and eventually anyone will be able to register an account. This is, ultimately, a public internet forum. This is not a "safe space," though it will always be women-run and women-centered. We do not have policies on banning people for their characteristics - or *supposed* characteristics. We cannot actually know user's characteristics, only what they claim their characteristics are. Policies have to be based on something observable, like a user's actions on the site. Banning men for admitting they are men, is in function, making a rule that men cannot tell the truth about being men. Men who lie remain. We have a lot of experience banning men for failing to avoid breaking the most basic of rules. We believe banning men for rule-breaking behavior is sufficient, and wastes less of our time. We have no intention on creating shadow policies that are not published. We're not Reddit. Ovarit is a platform for different communities. We are trying to keep our scope broad enough that we can platform a variety of communities that appeal to women with a broad range of ideas. This means giving moderators as much control over the circles they moderate as possible while still maintaining our Mission. We are not trying to create a hive of group think. The only way to avoid a group think spiral is to permit a range of ideas and disagreement. This means we have to be careful about the things we say "no" to with each additional constraint we give to moderators. If you think a user is breaking the rules, or if you think a circle isn't in line with the site Mission or rules, you can message the relevant moderators, or if necessary, you can send a private message to one of the admins. (A feature to message all mods of a circle or all the admins will be added eventually, but admins already discuss all relevant messages as a group). Starting threads calling out specific users or specific circles is not in line with our culture. We do not wish to have a culture where public call out posts bully or shame users or pressure moderators into complying with a narrow view they did not sign up for. Civility is a rule in the meta circles. Policies are up for discussion - do not make it personal, though. **Edit: For clarification, each circle can add rules on top of the site-wide rules. Circles can make rules prohibiting men from posting.**

277 comments

Thanks for posting this — I value rational discussion over echo chambers, and am actually really glad that there’s no plan to try to ban all male users (or similar). The only thing that makes me nervous is the possibility of getting rid of the invite codes... I worry that it would lead to a flood of bad faith trolls into the community. Is there some kind of plan to prevent that from happening once the invite code system is turned off?

Yeah, the second invite codes stop being necessary, we're gonna get bombarded. Hasn't chapotraphouse already said that they've tried to brute force the invite codes just to fuck with us?

[–] [Deleted] 43 points Edited

I checked r/terfisafetish (someone linked it and I was curious) and someone on there said they kept checking our site, waiting for membership to become public so they could make an account and be as nasty as possible until they got banned. This had a ton of upvotes.

[–] womenopausal 51 points Edited

They raided us constantly when we were r/GenderCritical. Most of the objectionable content was filtered so site users never saw what was going on behind the scenes. We manually approved a lot of content to keep the space welcoming for all genuine users. If we hadn't it would have been all SHUT UP TERF memes and other bullshit all the time. We can, and will, do that again when registration opens. And here, on our own site, we have more tools at our disposal. I think we're up to it! If we aren't, we can just close registration again.

Once we have all the moderation features and other features we think we'll need for it, we'll open registration up for a trial and see how it goes.

At this point I think this is going to be less burden than moderating on Reddit. Reddit encourages trolls and makes it easy and painless for them to disrupt communities.

We dealt with and banned dozens of trolls every day on Reddit on r/GenderCritical. Many of them never got their posts into the light of day. We're used to that work. Making it rather difficult to attempt to troll and also unrewarding goes a long way to slowing them down.

Trolls have to give us an email address and their IP address now. We can develop more advanced tools to deal with them. I'm optimistic.

You can make a free email in 30 seconds though. Even if you force email verification removing the invite codes will give you guys a lot of work.

A lot of communities are watching us and just waiting to run wild here. I'm afraid you might underestimate how many disturbed eyes are on us.

Highly unlikely they're underestimating. There are always eyes on us. Remember these mods are used to operating in openly hostile environments. As they've said, if it's too much work, they'll go back to invite codes.

I know there are apps where your face is scanned or voice is recorded to see if you're female, but that's a bit high tech probably.
Obvs the GC discord had a sort of "views on feminism" questionnaire in order to join, which seems to have worked quite well and is probably easier.
Like, we could have a few in-depth questions with registration in order to discourage trolls. More like an application to join than simply registering, and then make it so until mods accept the registration people either can't comment/post, or can but it all gets filtered to review their activity alongside application?
Idk, I'm sure you lot are smarter than me on this one, but that's kind of how we ran our female only health sub and it worked out okay.
I'm sure some of the established members here would be happy to volunteer specifically for processing applications too if we ended up getting a dearth of troll registrations/applications. I certainly will always be happy to help if I can, anyway!

The face scanning tech is not foolproof either. I'm a homely middle-aged woman and the Giggle app reads me as not-female.

Much as I'd love this to be a woman only space, I couldn't be on board with face or voice scanning, or requiring them to submit ID. First, any of these can be faked - a dude could get a female friend for any of those three. Second, and more important, it's a potential hurdle and potential massive privacy breach for women (y'know, the group we care about.) If this site's records were somehow broken into, bad enough to have emails or invite code trails; faces or IDs or legal names would be catastrophically dangerous, and I mean actual danger, not "I was deadnamed and I'm dying inside" danger.

I think once our numbers are at a certain point, then we can weed out the troublemakers more easily. It wouldn't have made sense to have a fifty member community overrun by twenty-five TRAs, but as the community gets larger, they won't be as much of a problem to weed out.

Ovarit is not going to end up an echo chamber just because it's a women only space. I think that is a harmful perspective to take.

I understand it's impossible to keep out all men, though. And it's not a safe space because men and anyone else can read the posts.

But could men at least be flaired? I understand that they can still lie, but I think a lot of us would feel better if we at least knew which users are men. And lying about your sex should result in a ban if that information comes out-- I don't think we should be tolerating womanface on the forum.

One thing that upset us so much is that an AGP is here, and none of us know who he is. Apparently he is somehow GC and an "ally", but I think it's unfair to disregard how uncomfortable that makes us feel here, especially not knowing which user he is.

[–] [Deleted] 49 points Edited

Ovarit is not going to end up an echo chamber just because it's a women only space. I think that is a harmful perspective to take.

THIS. It irritates me that so many women are saying this. Wtf. We need men to diversify our thinking? We benefit from men who can't resist coming to a woman-centered space and spewing their unwanted perspectives and opinions? "Oh but they're allies!" Let your GC/AGP man pals defend women (or whatever it is they think they're doing) in MALE SPACES where there's an outside chance that their more important male opinions will be listened to and considered rather than drowned out with rape threats & other shit. The fact that these dudes can't resist is one thing but that women here are all too willing to give them a seat/give them the mic and then headpat and upvote them to no end pains me.

I know Ovarit was never intended to be man-free and I do appreciate the mods' efforts. I do wonder why "woman-centered" means "echo chamber hive mind" to so many.

1000%. There is a looooot of internalized misogyny in all of us, even here. Most of us are here because we are open-minded people. I think it's coming from a well-meaning place to say that men will help keep us from becoming an echo chamber-- but it's a misogynist place also.

It sounds just like that article someone posted about gynecologists the other day... And a male one saying men should never be shunned from the field for need of diversity of opinion. :P

All m*n/ share the same horrible attitude and opinion about our sex. It's about time we started shunning them out. Hell with that article.

yes! absolutely, all of this!

Exactly, thank you!! As a separatist I am so very, very tired of the phallocentric, misogynist idea that because a space is woman-only it will be a hive mind, a cult, or stifling to thought. Since when do we need to surround ourselves with males to think independently? Quite the opposite. And anyone who's been around radfem spaces should be extremely well acquainted with how much women can disagree seriously with each other.

[–] [Deleted] 41 points Edited

Yes, the assumption that "no men" = "echo chamber" is a surprisingly misogynistic trope. Because we all have the same girl brains, hurrdurr, right, and there are good ideas that might not be generated without male supervision?

I mean look at this discussion alone. It’s been passionate and very different. No echo chamber to be seen.

It wasn't my intention to imply that we need men to not become an echo chamber. This post was created to address several things that came up elsewhere. We're dedicated to platforming a variety of women-centered communities and letting mods create different norms in their communities. That's what the echo chamber topic is about. Some people think every circle is going to have a narrower vision than even GenderCritical does or ever did, that's not happening.

I'm interested in men having a marker (not flair since that's a different, circle-specific feature, but a site-wide marker) and possibly building in features to automatically stop them from posting in certain circumstance, etc. But I'm concerned about the legality of it so it's on the "ask a lawyer" list.

Thanks for clarifying. I do understand it's got to be tough to police everyone. Appreciate your hard work!

thanks for explaining! we all appreciate the mods hard work, we are just worried this website will be infested with trolls of all the horrible kinds harassing women yet again, like everywhere else.

[–] sealwomyn 3 points Edited

Thanks for doing that work on how to keep them out of the female-only circles from the tech aspect. I would much rather have a female-only lesbian space here where the systems admins are women rather than on facebook where women think we're safe but in reality plenty of creepy males working for FB can probably read everyone's private convos no matter how secret you set the group.

ETA: I'm not rich by any means but if this is something that could be achieved easier with donations from those of us who want it, myself and I think many other women would also be willing to chip in

M*n run facebook. Reddit. Tumblr. Twitter. Among many other sites online. Wombyn have been chased off and banned for speaking our minds on those platforms. Learn from their history please because it’s only going to happen here at some point. I guarantee it.

M*n do not belong here when they run 99% of the internet and the whole damned world. We deserve a space without them.

Feminists gave m*nkind an inch into Feminism and he has destroyed it.

We control Ovarit. It doesn't follow that not attempting an impossible task will cause this site to transform into a male controlled site.

Women-only spaces are fantastic and necessary. We've done the work to make some - it's a lot of work, it creates a necessarily smaller and slower growing online space. Those spaces are private also, because there really isn't a point if they're public, so many topics are super risky if it's public. We are not attempting to make a failure of such a thing on an open internet forum.

Additionally, women are allowed to make communities on this site that do disallow men - it's just not a site-wide default, for the multitude of reasons we've outlined in the links.

I don't understand why people think that there shouldn't be any sites in between the extremes (Male controlled and dominated Reddit on one side, actual (vetted) womens-only communities on another). We did not launch until we had our About page written specifically to try to be clear about what was happening. But people make assumptions rather than reading it, and then get angry that we're not fulfilling their assumptions.

[–] r4df3mcynthia 10 points Edited

Additionally, women are allowed to make communities on this site that do disallow men - it's just not a site-wide default, for the multitude of reasons we've outlined in the links.

I think you should highlight this part in your original post, because I did not understand that was a possibility, even by what you said there.

I don't understand why people think that there shouldn't be any sites in between the extremes (Male controlled and dominated Reddit on one side, actual (vetted) womens-only communities on another). We did not launch until we had our About page written specifically to try to be clear about what was happening. But people make assumptions rather than reading it, and then get angry that we're not fulfilling their assumptions.

My guess is that people don't know where to find the vetted communities, so they're putting pressure on Ovarit to turn it into a space it was never designed to be because they think it's the only space. But honestly just a guess because imo Ovarit has been really, really clear about this from the start. So I respect your patience.

You're allowing m*le users to join a space online that is supposed to be solely for us. It's not an assumption it is a fact.

Ovarit: Reddit 2.0

Isn't it time we learn to be assertive, then? And stand our ground? If there is one website where women can learn to stand up to males and not defer to them in conversation, it's here.

I'm not sure why you think this way - that the women running this site, you assume, will just be magically overrun. I believe they are very aware of these issues, and in my opinion have a very reasonably and obviously female-centric stance - as it should be.

[–] ouvalemonde 33 points Edited

Isn't it time we learn to be assertive, then? And stand our ground? If there is one website where women can learn to stand up to males and not defer to them in conversation, it's here.

Yes, but why shouldn't this be a space that is safe for those who don't wish to do so? Why should this be a site where we need to "learn to stand up to males" instead of limiting the ability to males to interact with us and being able to talk freely among each other? I, for one, am exhausted by having to constantly assert myself to men, and I find this female-centered space quite refreshing because I cannot find other spaces like these where men are discouraged from coming in and trying to explain things I already know in a condescending manner or trying to tell me how I should feel.

Pay attention to the words you used: “learn to be assertive,” and “stand up to males.” These are fighting roles. That’s not relaxing. We spend all freaking day standing up to them and putting up with their misogynistic “humour.“ We want a space where we can talk without having our guard up all the time.

I never claimed I wanted to relax - so my choice of words is fitting, in my opinion, for myself. Every one of us here is an individual, and while there is a collective "goal"; to share spaces with females and to talk and be in communication with other women, about topics that are interesting or crucial for women, it's not a hive mind. (I just have a slightly different goal right now in being here than you have. It changes from circle to circle for me as well. I realize I used "we" myself in my original post. That might've been an over-generalization. Food for thought.)

For some women, this might be the first space they find where they can cultivate a self-assured "No" attitude which they weren't introduced to in real life.

I know I was looking for something like that. Liberal feminism and PC culture has especially young women being shamed into saying yes, sorry, or staying silent all the time. I'm seeing positive effects in my life that I am finally learning to say no and am experiencing that I can articulate my thoughts for not liking or wanting something more easily now.
Maybe you're in a different place in life and already have mastered this "art". For me, it's a learning process still.

Agreed. The mods own this space, the mods will make the rules. And we can't "prove" members are women, nor should we; internecine fighting accusing people of secretly being men is a horrid possibility.

But why on earth not state "this is a place for women"?

Most people here are by definition cool with excluding men who pretend to be women from our feminism and this space. It seems barmy to be to then welcome men who don't even pretend to be women. Sure, we can't keep them all out, and it's important that people behave accordingly (recognize that it's not as safe as it might seem.)

But why roll out the welcome mat for them? Why not "Ovarit: A space for radical feminist women"?

There isn't a welcome mat for men. Not being automatically banned at the site level isn't a welcome mat.

This entire website isn't a space for radical feminist women only (certain circles can do that, but the site has a broader range of possibilities for communities). Radical feminist women aren't the only ones that need a platform. Women can't even discuss their health problems or motherhood or being lesbian on Reddit or Facebook without censure and gaslighting and brainwashing. Those women need and deserve space too, even if they're not feminists.

Being a radical feminist is required for admins because this project is dedicated to women's liberation and only radical feminists resist bullshit with any regularity, but this project is dedicated to helping a much broader swath of women than the small radical feminist community.

To me, being a radical feminist is about prioritizing and liberating all women, even the ones you don't like.

A link to the About page: https://www.ovarit.com/wiki/about

[–] [Deleted] 12 points Edited

To me, being a radical feminist is about prioritizing and liberating all women, even the ones you don't like.

Copy. How do men fit in there? Why not, then, "Ovarit: a space for women"? The false dichotomy of banning vs welcoming is a red herring; it is not, as the mods have pointed out, functionally possible to ban men. It is possible to state that this is not the place for them.

And yes, in fact, any space that doesn't explicitly tell men they're not welcome functionally invites them, as per (squints veeery carefully at the bottom of this screen, checks the URL, scrolls down to the bottom again) the Sheila Jefferys quote at the bottom over this very website.

[–] AriadneOnNaxos 10 points Edited

This entire website isn't a space for radical feminist women only (certain circles can do that, but the site has a broader range of possibilities for communities). Radical feminist women aren't the only ones that need a platform. Women can't even discuss their health problems or motherhood or being lesbian on Reddit or Facebook without censure and gaslighting and brainwashing. Those women need and deserve space too, even if they're not feminists.

Being a radical feminist is required for admins because this project is dedicated to women's liberation and only radical feminists resist bullshit with any regularity, but this project is dedicated to helping a much broader swath of women than the small radical feminist community.`

I love everything about this. Not because I’m not a radical feminist myself. Because I am.

Thank you

EDITED because I am learning how to format.

YEP. I can't even block the male turds that have decided to show up here. I'm out.

Why get rid of the invite code system when it allows for a clearer record to be made of who invited who and who's done what?

The main reason the codes distress me is, some women need this community but aren't going to overcome the hurdle of getting an invite code. Some women need help ASAP. Women in abusive relationships, women who've been raped by TIMs and are being told they're the problem, women in women's shelters that admit men and are being bullied into tolerate more violence, they came to GC for help. Hurdles make it less likely they're going to get help at all.

The space being turned into Reddit 2.0 would arguably not provide a safe space for these women, is the thing. Maybe the answer is to have an option to apply for an invite code by messaging a mod on the site? We need to keep Ovarit safe as possible as much as we can.

Yeah, without invite codes it's just an invitation for trolls.

We dealt with and banned dozens of trolls every day on Reddit on r/GenderCritical. Many of them never got their posts into the light of day. We're used to that work. Making it rather difficult to attempt to troll and also unrewarding goes a long way to slowing them down. Trolls have to give us an email address and their IP address now. We can develop more advanced tools to deal with them.

I think this, posted by OP in another part of this thread, should help cut down on the number of trolls and keep Ovarit the environment we all enjoy. I work for a company that needs to block 'bad faith actors' and we have something similar set up that works.

Honestly after reading this explanation, I'm so torn.

Invite codes keep this site from being flooded with male trolls. I'm sure we all know from past experience that men will do anything to insert themselves into something that isn't for them. The other day I was thinking how devastating it'll be if 4chan noticed Ovarit if it didn't have invite codes.

But you're right...women need help asap and the barrier of entry needs to be lowered. You said in another comment that you've had experience with modding r/GC. As Ovarit grows, you'll need more mods for circles and admins, which you require to be women. How will you be validating that they are indeed women and not men posing as women?

I totally understand that angle, but the "ASAP help" aspect doesn't really gel with the current format the site.

To me, this is a place for serious discussions and lighthearted social interactions with like minded people. Both of these would be crippled by even a small amount of bad faith users.

To me the "GC emergency" posts like you mentioned, where an hour of hurdles could make a real difference to someone's life, would fit better on Saidit or Reddit, or anon forums. Many of us maintain presence in the more WildWest part of the GC internet too, can help and then direct that person here if they want to join.

The model of Crisis Centre, where anyone can walk off the street to get help ASAP versus discussion club where vetting participants is necessary... They contradict each other to me. And you've built an amazing clubhouse so far.

I'm not at all questioning your ability to mod because lord knows Reddit is a masterclass in troll wrangling. I just wonder if the effort will be worth it, and how the community's sense of trust will be affected once a few smarter, slow burn trolls get through vetting and give us that "they're among us" feeling.

Maybe the open registration could be limited to users only posting on a newbie board until they get a certain number of upvotes? Then the emergency posts could get the light of day, but trolls would either be banned or give up the fight? Just a suggestion to mesh the two aspects.

Thank you for all the work done so far!!

Yes, if you need ASAP help don't you by definition need the kind of privacy that this place cannot guarantee?

[–] yikesforever 5 points Edited

I think a newbie board for new users is a great idea. Although they would also have to not be able to upvote, or else they could just upvote each other.

Maybe they could make posts in there showing their behaviour and then request to 'level up'.

I hadn't thought of this angle on the invite codes: thanks for explaining! It helps with concerns I had about dropping invite codes as a feature. It's apparent thought went into the things outlined in this post. Thanks!

First, my sincere thanks to the women who made time and space to make this fantastic site for us 💖

Second, though we know we are women, unless I doxx you all, technically you could be a man claiming he’s a woman. I’d rather have the dudes who are upfront over sneaky ass males saying they are women and/or playing a long con.

I agree, but I also don't want the male users to get preferential treatment or to dominate the space. If this is a forum for 'everyone,' then the attempt to make a space for women was a failure.

As mod, there is no chance I’d let that happen at my circles and I can’t imagine any other mod prioritizing men neither.

In what way should a male get preferential treatment? I don't want to argue, I just don't understand what you mean.

A man shows up to write a wall of text and he gets all the upvotes and headpats. Happened in r/GC more often than you would think.

I'm not accusing the mods of being biased or anything, I just know that men count on using womens' unconscious socialization against them to derail feminist conversations.

Not the person you replied to but back on reddit, there were a lot of complaints about male posts and comments getting "too many" awards, upvotes, and "handmaidens" praising and thanking them for "saying things we already knew". There's no award system here on Ovarit at least, and the attitude is more chill than the extreme man-hate from the old GC, but I worry it might dissolve into those arguments again.

HAHA, it's inevitable that that is exactly what will happen.

That is true, but as it is the assumption we reasonably have engaging on this site is that we are all women unless proven otherwise. Also that any men on here are at least not AGPs! I think we need to have men declare themselves with a flair, and any man caught lying about his sex needs to be banned.

Yes - I am not here for the opinions, arguments, or feelings of men. I can get those literally anywhere else. Would appreciate some flair so I can just scroll past, and avoid the whole algorithm of "this seems weird ... I'm not sure this actually fits with women's experiences ... let's look at the poster's history ... oh, it's a dude, nm" waste of time.

I agree with this as well. I'm here to listen to other women, not men.

I feel like the only males who would want to post on this site would be trolls. lol

Kinda sad that invites are only temporary.

[–] dixiechick547 53 points Edited

I agree and don’t see the point. I’ve been online since the mid-nineties and that’s always been the case—men come to a predominantly female forum either to troll or for emotional labor. Both are annoying af but it’s not my forum.

Great point - if I recall correctly this happened with some regularity on /r/GC, whether it was males or TIMs coming to post their sob story. I guess that would be a good reason to introduce a feature to move threads from one circle to another. I am not going out of my way to be unkind, but I do not log onto this site for that.

[–] dixiechick547 33 points Edited

Hell, they used to come on GenderTrender and Gallusmag was the last person to tolerate their BS. Men believe they’re entitled to admittance to all spaces. Just once I’d like to see them proved wrong.

Don't be afraid to be unkind. Sometimes, just telling it like it is has to be done.

A feature for mods to be able to move threads to the appropriate circles would be a good idea, especially for users that are not sure of where their post should ideally go.

Yes. There are a ton of very tech savvy and organized, well-funded MRAs and MRA aligned groups, and they WILL bombard and trash the forum if allowed any leeways.

[+] [Deleted] 33 points

I think a small group for dads of children who are struggling...I would argue that a circle FOR them (GC Fathers) would be a smart way to deal with weeding out some of the 'lookatme' men who are here for validation, trolling or just, cause, well, they can't help mansplainin.

I can't remember his name, but the Canadian father who is in legal trouble for refusing to validate his daughter's 'male name and pronouns'...he can't be the only one.

But they can go everywhere else though... dudes like that get a ton of support on Twitter and such already.

Why perform even more emotional labor for men?

I see it as a strategy. Accept that they will be here...redirect them to that one circle and then if they don't comply, quick banning...I see it as an efficiency tactic.

This is brilliant I think. Some dudes are making a good effort. If they're raising kids and they're trying to do right by them, a circle like that could be helpful.

[–] antandro -45 points Edited

With respect — no. I am a man and I invite you to read my comment history and judge for yourself. There are precisely two posts on which I probably burned 100 points ... and I don't regret doing so, because as OP says, a hive-mind is not the goal of Ovarit. It remains to be seen whether Ovarit can live up to that since feminism is an inherently political idea (necessarily! And this is not a bad thing!). However, politics tends towards exclusion, in the same way that organization tends towards oligarchy, but an awareness of this goes a long way towards blunting it.

So, why am I here? Because men find neither strength nor freedom in patriarchy. We are certainly more advantaged, but at what cost to us? What we currently have serves the narrow interests of multiple intersecting systems of oppression that force us all into unsuitable, unhappy roles without our having made any conscious choice to accept them, and insist that we must find them to be pleasant. We are encouraged to be lust-crazed, strongman-adoring, aggressive and impatient morons (I could go on, but why?). It gives rise to the idiocies of TRA and MRA, both of which explicitly feed off the gender stereotypes that are so harmful to all. As a father, this is not yet the world that I want my children to grow up in; a better world is possible. I believe that Ovarit and similar discussion fora are useful for dismantling the gender binary and, with that (mostly) removed, both men and women become more free. That is why I am here.

I don't know about that politics tends toward exclusion thing, but I do know labels and categories tend toward exclusion, for good reason. You cannot have every single word in the English language encompass everything.

It's neither here nor there to me if you stay here so long as you behave; there's no harm in learning about people who are not completely like yourself. Granted. But why don't men start their own anti-patriarchy resources? You don't have to ingratiate yourself to the feminist movement to make that happen. You folks need to work with one another on that because seriously, you as a group harm one another at least as much as you as a group harm us. Start caring about that.

Some have tried, but not with this focus. Some examples:

  • Good Men Project
  • Jordan Peterson-flavoured courses/fora/etc
  • ManKind project

All of these have tended towards promotion and implicit acceptance of gender roles, which then reinforces the gender binary. None of them have the more solid (in my opinion) theoretical foundation of second-wave feminism. There is little analysis, and too much focus on pragmatics, which then reinforces gender roles — which is unsurprising, because that's the most "natural" thing in a patriarchal society! In fact, to my (incomplete) knowledge, it is only feminism which explicitly foregrounds and mainstreams the idea that "women are people". There is no mens' discourse whatsoever that does this. I therefore see feminism as being critical for the emancipation of all humans.

The history of my nation makes it very clear to me that the oppressor doesn't give a damn about the oppressed until he's literally forced to. And there is no narrative, promulgated by the oppressor, which can possibly foreground the actual narrative of the oppressed in fair and reasonable terms. I don't have any faith that an anti-patriarchy resource started by men, and for men, is possible. The impetus must come from women. This is why I think that it is critical for women to be women on their own terms, and only later reach rapprochement with men. Ovarit looks to be an excellent place for that.

In the meantime, we men continue to be, essentially, the babies of the world. We war on each other, we insist that entire societies be organized around our sexual "needs", we prioritize our convenience and comfort over just about everything — including the lives of women. We never develop self-control, we never have a genuine reason to mature. We go to our graves as we are born, children for decades. And f*ck that for a game of soldiers! We're literally destroying the planet because it would be slightly less convenient to NOT destroy it. I'll take anything that gets us to grow up a bit.

With respect - Fuck off mate! No one here cares about your smug arse opinion. If you're that concerned about the poor men go find a male space where you can talk down to them and tell them how to fix shit, don't come in here being a condescending pig and expect us to kiss your hooves.

Have your children been affected by all this yet? I'm honestly more interested in your perspective as a parent.

Yes. It's worse in the schools. By the time they're 7-8 years old, they're being told by others to avoid girls or "she must be your giiiiirlfriend!". That progresses to outright sexualization in a few years and the early exposure to porn makes it all much, much worse than it was when I was in school. As for teenage "relationships" over here ... holy handgrenade, what a mess those are! It's already fraught territory because of the newness, but add in a dash of patriarchy (from both sides ... what girls "expect" from boys is a whole 'nother kettle of salmon) and you've got a properly toxic brew.

And then there's the media. My children don't get exposed to most music or music videos. And the crap starts when they're young ... have you seen Zig and Sharko, by any chance? I recall some gnashing of teeth about Tom and Jerry maaany years ago, but that's nothing compared to what's there today. Fortunately, there are also some pretty decent shows (Avatar, Ninjago, etc) so it's not all bad.

So you've got to be a bit careful, you've got to watch out for them, and you've got to keep pushing the message (theoretical and practical) that people are people, and talking to them all the time. It's easier in my environment than it might be in many others and I'm very thankful for that.

I must admit I'm very unhappy about men being allowed. The whole Internet is there for men.

I feel that the majority of us thought that this was for women only, which makes me think the men who joined probably thought so too. But that didn't stop them joining. I mean its so typical.

Again, if we describe this place as "for women" then any man here is explicitly choosing to violate this boundary. We should do this. We shouldn't let them muscle their way in while pretending to be nice guys. If they do it, make them own the boundary violation.

But men will lie, so then the only males here will be liars.

Personally, I'd like to see some boards open for discussion, but have some boards open to women only.

I'd also like to suggest (if it's not already considered) boards for transwidows and victims of abuse to discuss these particular issues by invitation only.

From what I understand, already the o/lesbians and o/women circles are for women only. Men are NOT allowed to post or comment on those. No doubt as things progress there will eventually be other circles with similar rules.

Girl Undone has been very clear from day 1 this wouldn't ever be a female only space.

And GirlUndone has fucked this site over for us. Mn do not change for the better and never will. Just another example of why mles shouldn't be allowed here. https://ovarit.com/u/antandro/comments

That's not a good example...

I think some of you don't understand the internet. What personally triggered you with this guy? Because he claims 2nd wave feminism is good for men too? It's true and if he thinks that's an argument he will use to get men on board, good for him. Its his job as a man to help men and if our ideas help, great. WE don't need to fix men, HE does.

Women are a diverse group! Some of us are straight, lesbian or bisexual. Some of us are far left, left, middle or lean right. Some of us are educated and some are not. We are atheists, Muslims, Christians, Jews, etc., and we are many different races and ethnicities.

We certainly do not need men for diversity.

I think that I have a very small understanding of the amount of work that the administrators and moderators have already invested in order to get the site up so quickly and to keep this site running. I was and am, so grateful for Ovarit.

I foresee the minute that the site is open to everyone, those foaming-at-the mouth TIMS will use their treasured masstagger, just like they did on Reddit, and we will be inundated.

I don’t know what the “right” answer is. I just wish that in 2020, there was somewhere that is free from men, even for a short while.

Very much so. We have a huge debate right now about allying with right wing groups. I’ve been on various sites for this issue since 2014 and see no indication of a hive mind, nor any desire from anyone that we become one. Frankly we can hear men talk ANY AND EVERYWHERE. It’s not like there’s a shortage of men spewing every thought that comes into their heads all over the goddamn place. It just irks the fuck out of me that they’ve literally pushed us out of all public spaces and even now we feel that simply stating that something is ours is too much.

We certainly do not need men for diversity.

Yes!! Thank you, we don't at all. I understand the technical limitations but that doesn't mean they add some irreplaceable insight 🙄

It'd be nice if men could have an "XY" flair besides their name, similar to how it worked on Reddit.

Or just have a gendercriticalguys sub for them to post in. They can comment everywhere else but no original posts except for GCguys

[–] Ruby 38 points

There are plenty of spaces for men to talk on the internet, they will not be offered one here.

[–] crodish 3 points Edited

So, allow males to post here, but they shouldn't post here anyway, even though the offer is open? What was the point of the mod post saying men are allowed then? Edit: or just that they shouldn't get their own sub, but are free to comment on subs that allow them to?

We do not wish to have a culture where public call out posts bully or shame users or pressure moderators into complying with a narrow view they did not sign up for.

In this way, Ovarit is better than 99% of the internet. Brava!

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