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FantasyOn the Queering* of Tolkien - A Rant
Posted November 29, 2021 by VestalVirgin in Books

Or: Why Tolkien would never have agreed with transactivists and why they ought to leave the fandom and boycott all of Tolkien's works.

*= I use "queer" in the sense in which Tolkien uses it in LotR, as that seems closest to what it has come to mean in the course of transactivism. Those TRAs sure are queer people, is what I'm saying.

There is, of course, the fact that Tolkien was very Catholic, but let's leave that aside for a moment.

Only looking at what he has written in his fictional works. I will be focusing on LotR, as I am re-reading that currently, and it's been a while since I read the other books.

First, things that directly concern gender roles. It is notable that while few women appear in the books, those who do appear defy gender roles rather often.

Éowyn, of course. I need not explain that.

Galadriel may not walk around wearing trousers, but she rules her forests. Not because there was no male heir, as far as I can tell, but just because she is just that awesome. And she didn't have to give up romance and marriage to do so.

Luthien goes to fight Morgoth to save her beloved.

(It has been a while since I read the Silmarillion, so I might have forgotten some women in it, but Luthien sure stands out for sheer badassery)

Now, let's look at the men. Do they engage in stereotypically male behaviour?

With the hobbits, I can't think of any example. When they fight, it is with reluctance and without joy. They fight for their lives, not for fun.

They do, on the other hand, enjoy singing, which I am told by people who grew up in sexist households is coded feminine. (Which is idiotic, but that is usually with gender norms.)

Poetry is also a popular hobby, and while in our world almost only men are lauded as great poets, the male poet, among his male peers, is often considered feminine.

They also are mentioned to wash and bathe pretty every time they have the opportunity to do so, which should not be a gendered thing, but let's be honest, it is. It's considered feminine.

Oh, and they cook. Without getting paid for it.

Aragorn and Boromir are pretty typical dudes doing dudely things, but Aragorn at least likes poetry, too. (I can tell why this is, but "death of the author", so ... let's pretend we don't.)

Then there's Legolas and Gimli. Of course, they both love poetry and singing. They are also fighters, which is coded masculine.

And Gimli admires Galadriel. Courtly love was a very manly thing in the times long past that Tolkien writes about, but I would argue that it is not a very manly thing in the days of MRAs and Transactivism. Actually, sincerely admiring a woman for her personality and not having any intent of perving on her (with Galadriels supernatural skills, I think she would know) is something anathema to incels, MRA and their TRA brethren. They would consider a man weak, and, dare I say feminine for it.

With that alone, there is enough material to support the assumption that the author of those books would not have been on board the trans train, because he would not have been convinced that a man who likes poetry, songs, cooks without getting paid, washes regularly and abhors violence must be actually a woman.

Nor that a woman who wears mens clothes and fights, has objections to the gendered expectations put on her by the men in her society, takes on a leadership position, or goes to save her dude in distress must be actually a man.

Oh, and the peoples of Middle Earth have been, according to the Silmarillion, explicitly created by god-like beings.

Any such creation myth does not really support the "born in the wrong body" narrative, as gods don't make mistakes.

Now, on to the less obvious things:

Let's take a look at the hobbits and compare them to the other peoples of Middle Earth.

They are smaller and weaker, but perhaps tougher than humans.

Now, how do the characters treat that difference? Do they ignore it and say it is socially constructed?

No. The Prancing Pony at Bree has special rooms for hobbits, even.

The members of the Fellowship acknowledge that the hobbits cannot walk through as deep snow as the rest of them can.

At no point does anyone pretend that the physical differences between humans and hobbits do not exist.

No one, unless I am much mistaken, expects the hobbits to hold their own in battle the way the humans, elves and dwarves do. It is openly acknowledged that they are at a steep disadvantage in a fight.

Also, the only time when one of the humans uses his physical strength to intimidate a hobbit, it's Boromir under the influence of the ring.

This is a statement by the author. It says: "Physical reality must be acknowledged. A smaller and weaker person is at a disadvantage when fighting a bigger and stronger person. Only someone who is morally corrupted to at least some degree would use their advantage in strenght over a smaller person to intimidate them."

Taken as a general statement, this can also be applied to women.

But I have saved the best for last:

Aragorn made it illegal for humans to enter the Shire. And then he visited his hobbit friends and stayed outside the boundary he had decreed.

Any TRA who still thinks that Tolkien would have been in favour of the abolition of women's spaces ought to read the books again.

Listen, TRAs: You were surprised when Rowling sided with women. I wasn't. I had paid attention to what she actually wrote instead of engaging, as you apparently were, in wishful thinking. Four words: Gryffindor girl dorm stairs.

So trust me on this. If Tolkien ever returns (I presume he himself believed in the resurrection of the flesh, so ... who is to say it can't happen? The end of the world seems to be nigh, looking at the state of it ...) I predict that he will turn out to be gender critical.

So, why not save time and boycott him right now?

23 comments

notyourfetishNovember 29, 2021

I agree. I'm so tired of TRAs trying to "queer" classic literature, and I'm gay.

I always hated when people tried to say Sam and Frodo were gay. They were completely misinterpreting that relationship. Sam and Frodo weren't gay . . . they weren't even really friends. They were like a dog and his master. That was the nature of their relationship. But people completely, completely missed the point.

Also, Sam is not the "real hero." Frodo literally gave up his soul to destroy the one ring. /mini rant

IshahchaiNovember 29, 2021

Also, Sam is not the "real hero." Frodo literally gave up his soul to destroy the one ring. /mini rant

Frodo failed in his quest though. He fell prey to the ring and was only saved because Gollum bit his finger off. That the ring was destroyed after that was an accident. Sam was the only one who was not corrupted by the power of the ring. I admit I may be biased toward Sam because given the choice between a dog and his master, I’m going to want to befriend the dog every time.

VestalVirgin [OP]November 29, 2021

Frodo did not fail. You have to look at the whole picture.

He succeeded because he spared Gollum.

If he had killed Gollum, then Gollum would not have bitten off his finger, and then something horrible would have happened. But he spared Gollum, and Gollum did bite off his finger.

I love Sam as much as anyone, but it is factually wrong to say that Frodo failed. Frodo did not do it alone, true, but he also did not fail.

MadCowNovember 29, 2021

I don’t think Sam had the ring long enough to be corrupted by it. If he had, we might have seen it begin to have power over him.

I also don’t think Sam was the only one not corrupted or at least, not the only one to resist the ring. Galadriel was offered the ring and said no. Gandalf could have taken it at any time but didn’t. I think even Aragorn could have persuaded Frodo to give him the ring if he wanted to use it, but he didn’t.

thedarkhorseNovember 29, 2021

I think the ring did try to take him and promised him power but he said 'what is the point of a garden if I can't tend it myself' or something similar.

VestalVirgin [OP]November 29, 2021

All those who we see resist the ring did not have the ring for long, in some cases not for any amount of time. The wisest characters refuse to even touch the thing.

It seems to me that Frodo and Sam have the same resistance to the ring, it's just that Frodo had it longer. I don't think you can read any judgement on their virtue out of it.

The only characters whom we are, I think, intended to judge is those who are corrupted by mere greed for the ring, without ever having had it, like Saruman. (If I felt like being silly, I could write an essay on how "Saruman of the many colours" is a statement against the rainbow flag, but I don't really want to lower myself to that level ... though I suspect there is some queer reading of Saruman's colourfulness as proof of him being a letter soup movement ally.)

[Deleted]November 29, 2021

What can I say except STANDING OVATION?

DonKarnageNovember 29, 2021

There's just something so off-putting and so unsettling about how adamant these people (I don't know what else to call them besides woke/TRA) are about forcing their modern American ID politics and alt-progressive mindset into everything fictional, especially fiction of the past. Is this something that they need to do in order to enjoy a thing?

I remember how these people used to just label everything as "problematic" and then boycott it and then move on to the next one. Now they search for reasons to change and morph things to suit their own bizzare versions of reality and distort the original work as much as possible. I wonder if they started doing this because they realized that they wouldn't have anything left to actual enjoy if they continued to boycott everything they touched.

I wish they would just go back to boycotting, though. What they're doing now, like writing whole damn essays about why they believe hobbits were trans and elves were nonbinary, is just ridiculous. It's shameful that they're even given a platform for their nonsense.

[Deleted]November 29, 2021

I'd forgotten about that silly conference last summer. The sooner everyone else does, the better. I know he wanted to create a world (paracosm) others could play in too, but I think there are limits to sharing personal fantasies.

When I saw your title, I immediately thought of people shipping characters, which of course they do.

One of the things I do like about his world is that there is something for everyone. Come back in ten years and you'll see something you missed last time. Every time I go back to LOTR I'm impressed by a character or something I hadn't paid attention to the last time. There seems to be no end to the depth of his imagination (and plumbing of European mythology, of course).

It would be fun if Tolkien did come back and write a follow-up. I'm sure there's material he could use. Didn't one of the knights of the Round Table dress in women's clothes to get into a woman-only space and rape a woman? I can't remember the details. Bet he would.

BaileyscheesecakeNovember 29, 2021(Edited November 29, 2021)

However much some people might pluck out particular phrases, twist them into meaning that Tolkien supported gender ideology, and proudly declare triumph, Tolkien was a man of his time and would have thought the whole issue ridiculous. Sex was undeniable reality, as were societal expectations for each sex. The definitions of "woman" and "man" didn't change if someone didn't live according to their role. They were just seen as "not much of" a woman or man.

Yes, there are a few powerful women in Middle Earth, but the various societies were patriarchal. The leaders were primarily male and descent was traced through the male line. In Rohan, the riders and defenders of Helms Deep were men. The women were sent to the caves. In Gondor, the women were evacuated from Minas Tirith, leaving its defense to the men. In all of the battles, it is men who are fighting, not women.

Eowyn is initially described as a "woman with the spirit of a man," but in the end, she wholeheartedly embraces the domestic life she once scorned. In other words, she accepts a woman's proper role in society.

From the Silmarilien, the Valar "took shape after that manner which they had beheld in the Vision of Iluvatar"--they saw sexed creatures and modeled their physical bodies after them.

I need to go now, but will add some further comments to this post later.

Addendum: this phrase in The Silmarilien might be construed by TRAs as supporting transgenderism:

concerning the Valar taking on mortal, sexed forms "for that difference of temper they had even from their beginning, and it is but bodied forth in the choice of each, not made by that choice, even as with us male and female maybe shown by the raiment but is not made thereby."

The Victorian mind of Tolkien would more likely have meant that the sexless Valar chose a body that suited them, but weren't defined by that body. We humans, being sexed, never had that choice.

Tolkien was a veteran of WWI. He observed the intense bonds forged between soldiers who struggled to survive the horrors of trench warfare. It is reasonable to think this influenced his depiction of the relationship between Sam and Frodo.

starstuffNovember 29, 2021

Or maybe he wouldn't have been GC because Christians lean conservative and genderism is a conservative position. I prefer just not putting words in deceased authors' mouths.

AmareldysNovember 29, 2021

I think he'd be a conservative today. Not a Trumpist, but center right.

VestalVirgin [OP]November 29, 2021

Well, you can have your opinion, of course, but I really do not think that Tolkien believed in gender the way extremist USian Christians do. (I mean, those people are happy to trans their children to trans the gay away ...)

I cannot remember the source, but I read on the internet some of his writings about elves, and it seems (unless someone blatantly passed off their own ideas as Tolkien's) he had imagined elven society to have next to no gender roles. The elves are pretty much perfect in any aspect, so ...

Oh, and there is dwarves. "Hey, you know what? Female dwarves should have beards" does not sound like an idea thought up by someone who loves gender.

My takeaway from this is that Tolkien saw the inherent wrongness in patriarchy and wanted to live in a more equal world. Certainly, on the surface, Middle Earth looks extremely patriarchal, but - that's the case with Harry Potter, too.

In Harry Potter, we see that Rowling made an effort for equality whenever she consciously thought about worldbuilding. There are female ministers of magic reaching back far into the past, there are two female founders of Hogwarts, etc. But in the actual story, almost all adult women are housewives. Because that's what Rowling grew up with.

It is, certainly, possible and even likely that Tolkien thought that women and men should fill different roles in society based on physical differences. But genderism is a way of thinking that elevates the notion of pink and blue brains above the physical reality.

And no somewhat intelligent person (who uses their brain) can subscribe to genderism. Tolkien was educated. He knew that gender roles weren't always the same (see Éowyn), and from that, it follows logically that they must be a social construct. An useful social construct, perhaps, but a construct nevertheless.

Would Tolkien vote conservative nowadays? Well, likely, but that doesn't say much considering that the Left have collectively lost their minds.

AmareldysNovember 29, 2021

There are very few housewives in Harry Potter… only Molly, Petunia and possibly Narcissa though she is more of an heiress/socialite. Maybe Bellatrix?

The vast majority of the women in the books are teachers. Which makes sense since it is set in a school. Tonks is an Auror. Fleur works at Gringotts though I think she stops when they go into hiding.

GeneralLesbianNovember 29, 2021

"Reclaimed work from the author."

There are biography you can check out. Also one of his BFF was C. S. Lewis and we all know how religious he was.

There are also collected letters of Tolkien.

So there's a huge body of writing that would refute any claim TRAs.

Luna_LovegoodNovember 29, 2021

I hate the way they use the word reclaim. It was never yours to begin with, so you’re just “claiming” it.

GeneralLesbianNovember 29, 2021

Reclaim = Colonization

VestalVirgin [OP]November 29, 2021

Oh, for sure.

I just focus on the books, because they will try to pretend that they can "reclaim" the books and that the books are not saying the very same things that Tolkien thought.

As they do with Rowling.

GeneralLesbianNovember 29, 2021

When will this stop.

These ideas should have stayed in the fanfic sites.

One of the most Rancid Fandom reddit sites is r/Tolkien. Same on YouTube. If these dudes, many who have supported Trans Rights, got understood what was going on, they would be in berserker mode.

devushkaNovember 29, 2021

They do, on the other hand, enjoy singing, which I am told by people who grew up in sexist households is coded feminine. (Which is idiotic, but that is usually with gender norms.)

Have people never heard of war chants and sea shanties? Then again when I was in my school chorus and church's choir most of the members were girls.

VestalVirgin [OP]November 29, 2021(Edited November 29, 2021)

It is all kinds of idiotic, not just because of war chants but because voice is one of the ways we can tell someone's sex.

I recently saw a youtube video of a guy with a really deep voice singing, and everyone (including the men) in the comments was going on about how manly the guy was and how sexy and so on. (It was a song by Tolkien, by the way. Fittingly)

If one does not engage in gender delusions and silly societal norms, there is no perceivable way a man singing with his deep voice could be unmanly - no matter what the song is, the voice broadcasts that the singer is male.

But I have long given up on finding any logic in gender norms.

JeSoPazzaNovember 29, 2021

This is the sort of thing you have in mind, I take it?

https://archive.md/FRNq3

VestalVirgin [OP]November 29, 2021(Edited November 29, 2021)

Indeed, I had read the threads about it, and was horrified. Although, perhaps, that is too strong a word. I was surprised that they seriously think it is possible to read their worldview into Tolkien's works.

(Had not previously had a link to the actual thing. I would listen to it in order to be able to rebut the arguments, but at this point in time, I do not expect there to be any actual arguments. If anyone did listen and wishes to enlighten me, you are welcome to do so.)