Welcome to the first discussion post for Right-Wing Women: The Politics of Domesticated Females by Andrea Dworkin.
In this post, we are discussing Chapter 1 The Promise of the Ultra-Right.
Share your thoughts on this chapter and overal book section in the comments. (Feel free to also share thoughts and suggestions on the discussion post and bookclub structure itself.)
Anyone who hasn't read the book but wants to give input on the topics discussed are welcome to as well! (I recommend mentioning that you haven't read the chapter in your post, so people are aware of that when replying.)
Readers are welcome to join in at anytime. Find a free copy of the book at frauenkultur.co.uk.
Dworkin impresses me with her ability to be so sharp and concise. It feels like there is no pointless filler, each sentence speaks clearly and then builds onto her next point. No wonder she has been quoted so much. There's so much I want to quote, this is gonna be a loooong post.
In this chapter, Dworkin lays out the foundation of which the right-wing operates on. She explains the plight of being female in a patriarchal society, and shows the enticement of the right-wing's façade of safety and protection.
Women who "buy in" on the right's deceptive deals remind me of Benjamin Franklin's quote:
(Though I disagree about the "deserve" part, I do believe people still deserve liberty even if they made the mistake of trying to give it up at some point. We do all make mistakes.)
It is frustrating how true this remains even fifty years later. It's like the players have changed but the game remains the same.
It is essentially safer to submit to patriarchy, but feel like it's "different enough" than actively go against it entirely. Tie this with the fact the patriarchy encourages women to fight each other, making it difficult for the mother and daughter to even find common ground and recognize the deeper misogynistic problems they both face together as women.
And...
And...
These all echo strongly to me of the modern-day behavior of women who renounce being female/women to instead identify as "transgender." They do not realize they are playing into the same patriarchal game. The transgender-identifying woman, sometimes quite literally when she gets "transgender surgeries," spills her own blood and denies it is her own. Depressing.
Women constantly struggle with perfection. I experience this myself. To be able to read something like this is very "freeing" and I hope it might serve as maybe a wakeup call for any other woman out there.
So disturbingly resonating. I see this as especially true in religions that encourage covering up of women in any manner. "She was asking for it" is a common rhetoric to justify a "disobedient" woman's cruel punishments, possibly even death, while also something repeated to the woman who utters it, convincing her that she is safe because she "properly" follows "the rules" so she is "good."
And...
This hurts how true it is. Seeing /o/NameTheProblem, looking through my Google News for "women" and still seeing rapes and murders and women's concerns about violent men ignored, day after day.
Okay, I know this was written decades ago and focused on conservative/right-wing women, but dang if this chapter doesn't echo to me what I see in the behavior of transgender-identifying women and girls. In the case of TIFs, the "subservience to male will" is not however, being a perfect domestic woman, it is subservience to the norms of the patriarchy created by men. Thinking that by being subservient to sexist stereotypes that hurt women, by morphing into them and perpetuating them, they have "acquired value" or "meaning."
I think this ties into people potentially having a fear of "being wrong," along with living in a highly anxious society. A desire to conform the world into something simple and ordered. It is a false promise for any human to claim they have a "solution" to our chaotic world that is "simple."
Financial independence matters. I think we are now seeing the cultural effects of women having financial independence recently as women have grown up with the ability to go to school and enter professions that once had been largely denied to them. And of course, the news cries about how women aren't having kids or getting married (no shit, the men still act like entitled losers while no longer having a financial advantage).
We all know how that goes...
I just thought this was clever. And sad. It's really a scam but we know plenty of people fall for scams. Or protection rackets.
It is sad the woman is not allowed to express love how she may want. Because she must "follow the rules of the game." It is so limiting.
This and the following sections detailing how Christian women are encouraged to perform all sorts of bizarre mental tricks to imagine their terrible husbands as loving "Jesus Christ" was so disturbing.
Fascinating and why I dislike organized religion, especially Abrahamic religions, where followers claim all that is good is due to God and completely disregard the efforts of humanity and their fellow people.
Reminds me of the funny quip I've seen about how if women are "so submissive" then why do they need so much patriarchal religion, misogynistic culture, and threats of violence to convince women of such a thing? Why don't women just naturally do it? Why must women be browbeaten into it and convince themselves that is what they are?
I think it's interesting how the tables have turned on the bolded part in regards to neoliberal women who now refuse to believe statistics on violence rates of "transwomen" (men pretending to be women).
Always gets me. Decades later and this is still being pointed out by women recognizing the unfairness and misogyny when it comes to abortion debates.
This mentality frustrates me: "I had to suffer, therefore you should too." So hateful and nihilistic.
And...
I feel like this applies in general to right-wing followers. It is extremely easy to convince a group of upset people to place their blame on something like another group of people (immigrants, black people, gay people, poor people, etc.) instead of seeing greater systemic rot, or looking inward towards one's own party and seeing manipulation and ulterior motives within their own party (eg. helping the rich get richer).
I do see how this applies more to women, and affects women harsher, by virtue of the patriarchy.
This was a very optimistic turn for the chapter and I appreciate it. I'm really impressed by Dworkin's writing. I had started reading Woman Hating a while ago and I was similarly immersed in the text because of her ability to see and convey ideas and behaviors from a clear and feminist perspective. Looking forward to the next chapter.
I’m dying mourning the loss of my own life, not because I’ve willingly submitted to the patriarchy but because I’m a scapegoat. A woman even other women don’t think of as human if it suits their purposes and needs in the patriarchy not to. Even though I lost that war a very long time ago, it’s only now that I’m realizing it.
Reading unicorns excellent summary and the chapter made me realize that it isn’t just right wing women who are supping with the devil, of necessity, hoping that their spoons are long enough. I’m not sure they ever are.
After all, left wing women marry. Most women marry. Female socialization is intrinsic and deeply rooted enough that marriage is still a requirement for acceptance no matter what else a woman has accomplished. Women are still rendered acceptable or unacceptable (like USDA meat stamp) based on male standards. I don’t just mean the obvious beauty standards either. Indeed no other achievement or accomplishment by a woman will even be considered unless she is also serving her function to men individually and as a class.
When I first read Right Wing Women it blew my mind. I think this isn’t because Dworkin explicated the bizarre behavior of certain sects of conservative and conforming ladies. She wrote a portrait of internalized misogyny and survival tactics for all women and did it with a clarity and compassion and conviction that is more precious than rubies.
We are all forced to negotiate with the men who threaten us, even if that threat is tacit. When we discuss the Left (in the US) erasing us from language and law and the agenda of the TRA movement we all realize that the men of the left hate us too. The men of the right see us as various functions as do leftist men but unlike the men of the right, leftist men aren’t willing to give anything in return, even as a marketing ploy. Another Dworkin quote about right wing men seeing women as private property and left wing men seeing women as public property. Or as Dworkin put it as wives and whores with left wing men valuing wives too little and whores too much.
Nothing has really changed. In fact with what we hear of hookup culture and the current state of dating and the serious propaganda devoted to normalizing pornography, prostitution and consequence free sexual for men, women are being boondoggled into serving their sexual function to men with even more harm than usual.
The first time I read this, I wondered if the traditional women might have been a bit more clear eyed about reality. I know this will be an unpopular musing but I did wonder. Not that I’m going to run out and marry a fundamentalist Christian businessman or whatever, but to paraphrase “…right wing women have assessed men and the world and found it to be a cold and dangerous place…” How can any woman argue with that?
Which brings me to:
Unicorn remarks: > Financial independence matters. I think we are now seeing the cultural effects of women having financial independence recently as women have grown up with the ability to go to school and enter professions that once had been largely denied to them. And of course, the news cries about how women aren't having kids or getting married (no shit, the men still act like entitled losers while no longer having a financial advantage).>
Men still have a financial advantage. They still own 99% of everything. Read on.
I’ve been pondering economic and material feminism a Lot lately completely independently of this book. The Second Wave did an enormous amount for women financially. Women can now have credit of their own, bank accounts of their own and in theory control their own wages. Women can pursue education and the professions in greater numbers than ever.
This is such an enormous change that many think that women are “equal” now and the economic part of feminism is complete. It isn’t. 99% of land is still owned by men. (Dale Spender) Something like 96% of everything else worth owning and controlling is still owned and controlled by males. Women live under governments and legal systems that they had no hand in defining or establishing. Even when women sit in parliaments or hold public office we are still the ultimate tokens.
Because women are still thought of as their functions in relation to men. In practice some women are functionally independent and live financially independent lives, even if those lives for women with jobs rather than careers is mostly defined by economic struggle.
But the men are noticing and that is bad news for us. Men aren’t getting their functions and services from women as a guarantee any longer. It won’t take them long to realize that female financial freedom is the key to this. Along with women freeing themselves from the idea that they are a collection of functions in service to other people.
We cannot free ourselves or each other without true economic freedom and the underlying mental freedom that would allow us to contemplate just how far we have to go. Women should own and control half of the earth’s resources. Because of our physical vulnerabilities and miraculous procreation we should have at least one continent that is women only. Because without physical security and economic parity we will all have to continue supping with the devil, not because we want to or to propagate the species but for baseline safety mental and physical. We can’t even really examine our socialization, our lives as functional service providers. Until then we are ALL right wing women.
Speaking of women financial freedom, what I'm late to the party discovering is it's not just about earning your own money, it's about investing it well so you won't end up penniless in your old age or if ill health comes and claims you. Recommending the book The Simple Path to Wealth, which really helped me demystify concepts that can be really intimidating. It feels really important for women to have this knowledge and these skills.
Very good points, especially about the overwhelming financial advantage/control men have systematically. I was definitely "missing the forest for the trees" in that bit by only focusing on isolated instances of some women's recently acquired financial independence. Thank you for your contribution to the discussion!
I think we are all missing the forest for the trees in this one. The changes have been so huge in the past fifty years that we don’t realize how far we still have to go. I’ve only just realized the truth of this.
Women having their own bank accounts happened within my lifetime.
I also really loved the optimism at the end. She's tough and straightforward but she also very clearly cares about women.
Totally agree with your synopsis very well put.