Hi everyone,
I was wondering if anyone had any recommandations on essays, articles or books that specifically focus on arguing against that claim ? I have read feminists write against it in passing, but it was usually one or two sentences. I recently stumbled on a reddit post saying "men and women should work together for gender equality, feminists are just too mean :(" and I'd love to see if someone did the work in deconstructing this narrative. I've also noticed more and more people reclaiming "sexism" whenever male violence or behaviour is questioned, and claiming that any form of generalisation is sexist behaviour against men.
If patriarchy actually hurt men, men would be putting women in charge
Ask any man if he would like to see an all female government, 90% of CEOs female, all large decision-making boards for organizations like the IOC and the UN completely female led. Women in charge of Hollywood and the military. If the answer is anything but wholehearted agreement, he doesn't actually dislike the patriarchy
Edit: oh, and if all research was female-focused and prioritized female needs over male needs
that's a very good point ! patriarchy hurts men until we suggest dismantling it. Then, they reply that it's more complicated than that.
Same thing when you see all the men whining about the feminazis persecuting them because women talk about how fucked up men are. Imagine if we lived in a world where men wrote entire patriarchy-dismantling essays because they were sick of shitty dysfunctional men who hate and abuse their fellow women and also commit violence against other men. Instead, the only time they'll open their mouths on the subject is when women speak up to butt in with "Excuse me, rape victim #75620571, I'll have you know I was actually severely beaten by boys in high school every day, so all of this stuff you're saying about how bad it is that men are so violent and misogynistic is very offensive to me. Feminism makes us boys feel so bad about ourselves when it talks about this and I think we should..."(cue entire essay telling women they're imagining things and to shut up)
Men would rather prioritise their and their bros' dickfeels than actual problems ruining the planet.
I mean, porn. It gives men ED, wastes their money, ruins their relationships, warps them psychologically, and makes them undateable. But the vast majority of men have zero problem with it. In fact, they love it. Some men do encourage other men to quit porn, but only a tiny handful even consider taking on the porn industry as a whole.
And 99% of the time they push other men to stop because their worms are broken.
Exactly. Most of the men I see saying "no more porn", also say "nofap", as if the two are indivisibly connected. They can't even imagine jacking off without having 20 tabs of degrading porn waiting for them. They still make it about how they can extract the most pleasure from women. It's often "yo bro stop watching porn and women will be soo much more attracted to you. Something about pheromones, they won't be able to help themselves, like animals bro."
The only way I can see a man taking a sincere interest in anti-porn activism on humanitarian grounds is if he had a loved-one who was personally harmed by the porn industry. I can also imagine a small number of men doing the same in order to get access to women who'd been harmed.
Sure, there's plenty of evidence that countries where women are oppressed do much worse on almost all metrics. But the crux of the matter is that the men in those countries would rather have their country do much worse than lose their power over women. It's as if men would rather suffer ED than do away with porn, as the other commenter said--a perfect analogy. Men's desires are not for happiness, in the end.
Yeah.
Patriarchy does hurt men, but men think that getting to terrorize women is a sufficient compensation for all the ways patriarchy hurts them.
So, in the end ... can one really say patriarchy hurts them? They consent to it, after all, gladly and voluntarily, most of them.
My perspective is that even if the patriarchy hurts men too (big if) it’s not really women’s problem. If lions are attacking lions, why should the antelope not only empathise, but step in to help? No thanks.
Right. It hurts them so bad they're willing to support and uphold it for centuries. They seem willing to endure it if it benefits them at our expense.
My first response to someone saying that would be "no, it doesn't." If they pressed further, I'd remind them that men created patriarchy, and men are notorious for violently destroying anything or anyone they don't like. If patriarchy was no serving men, it would've been dismantled centuries ago.
I do think it hurts men but that's only the convenient part of the sentence. It hurts men by making them into arrogant narcissists. It stunts their humanity.
"Patriarchy hurts men too" is the same as saying "narcissism hurts the narcissist too". Yeah he would be happier if he was a normal person. But do we have enough empathy, time and resources to waste on him? No, he took enough. He's not the center of the universe.
I think we need to normalize the right to not care at all.
Yeah, like pollution. It hurts everyone, including men, but it makes some men very rich and powerful, and hurts the poor ones first, so the patriarchy keeps it up. I'm alright, Jack.
"The Will to Change" by bell hooks: https://archive.org/details/willtochangemen00hook/mode/2up
It does hurt men, but it benefits them more. E.g. look at Ukraine, Gaza: young men killing young men (and everyone else they happen upon). It is bizarre that there are no men speaking out against the specifically sex based horror of this. Men are happy for men to die. If women and children wouldn't also suffer when they do that, I guess I wouldn't have a problem with it.
No MRA has ever actually done anything to improve the lot of men as a class. If they did, they'd be anti-war and labor rights activists.
Yes, you're right. Andrea Dworkin said something along the lines that under patriarchy, men were committing a genocide that ended in a suicide, and I think that was wonderfully put. I just feel like there is something deeper about this narrative and I wished I could read more about what other people have to say about it !
Think patriarchy mirrors abusive relationships writ large, including the murder-suicide or complete family annihilation committed by quite a few violent men as their last act of control.
There's a specific part of one of Lundy Bancroft's writings where he essentially says "Why does he do that?" isn't a good question for abusive men. The better question is "Why wouldn't he do that?" because abusers get everything they want in acting the way they do. I don't remember if it's Bancroft's book or an article where he made this point, but I think it's relevant to the discussion.
Look up Robert Jensen on YouTube, he talks about this a lot. I posted one of his videos a while back, so you can also look at my post history.
E: I’ll just leave it here https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KbxBJf9UtWg
Patriarchy hurts men the same way the recoil of a gun hurts a shooter.
Or a punch hurts the fist that threw it.
Capitalism hurts the rich, too!
"The drug trade hurts drug dealers too!"
Good.