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What are some issues lesbians face that bisexual women don't?
I saw a post where quite a few people mentioned bisexual women shouldn't be in lesbian spaces in certain contexts because they face different issues. An issue mentioned is that bi women have the privilege of straight passing because they can be with a man. I'm mostly attracted to women and haven't had any serious relationships or much physical contact at all with men, so I don't really know if that's accurate.
I would assume if I can't find a male partner I'm attracted to, to actually be in a relationship with, then that privilege wouldn't exist anyway, because forcing myself to be with a man without attraction wouldn't be that different to a lesbian forcing herself into comp heterosexuality for the passing benefits. The idea it's an assumed privilege doesn't really sit right with me. Or the fact that because I identify as bi means I'm projecting to men that sapphics aren't very serious about women, and center men. And because of this assumption, bi women more deserving of unwanted male attention/harassment than lesbians.
Those were some assumptions I've seen about bi people, and justifications of why lesbians face different issues, but I would like to see perhaps a less "they center men" explanation of lesbians and bisexuals having different issues, because I don't consider the centering to be a given for bisexuality.
Over 90% of bi women choose to be with men. So they spend time with men. They prioritize men - at least some man, at some point, usually a number of men, in their lives. And, in particular, they live their lives adjusted to, and cooperative with, male socialization and male sexuality. You have to make this adjustment and adaptation to be with men. Women who absorb male socialization and sexuality are inevitably changed and more deeply influenced by it than they realize or would admit. And it results in lots of subtle differences in how bi women are in all women settings for dating/finding partners.
Yes, I agree. And another result is that sometimes I have found it difficult as a lesbian feminist to do feminist work with bisexual feminists.
I'd be really interested in hearing you expand on those subtle differences in how bi women behave differently due to absorbing male socialisation. FWIW I agree with you, just curious to hear examples and learn more!
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That makes you a very small % of bi women.
There is usually 2 to 3 times more bisexual women than bisexual men. And around 2 time more gay men than lesbians in general population surveys.
We live in a "phallocracy" where women are conditioned to have too much empathy for men and little for other women.
This is why being a lesbian is revolutionary in a patriarchal male-dominated society, and also very difficult hence the figures.
That's why I admire and look up to lesbians. I feel a kinship with you, I truly do.
I'm a febfem, I've been physically attracted to only two males, but I find women to be by far the more attractive sex. I feel like bis are judged, even if we're hardly attracted to men, we're still seen as centering men, I think lesbians and wlw need to be united and come together, I was having a debate online, and the homophobes don't care at all, they shat on you regardless. I was told by a straight woman, you rub us the wrong way, and we hate you because you all are so paternalistic. It was so bizarre to me when i got that wakeup call. Straights don't like it when wlw or lesbians criticize heteropatriarchy and men. I learned the hard way. I also think it's easier to be bi then openly lesbian. I don't deny lesbians struggles, and I support my lesbian sisters. I get that there's mistrust between bis and lesbians,. regardless I know for a fact I don't center men, I'm a woman aligned feminist I say more power to us wlw and lesbian feminist women.
I feel like as a febfem, it's awkward for me, it's like I relate more to lesbians and feel admiration towards them, but if we febfems are seen as man worshipping just like the straight women, fine, but we could have been friends and allies. To those online who called me a bislut and male worshipping, you couldn't be more wrong, and your hostility is misplaced. Being attacked for being febfem online is honestly something. I just wanted to talk about feminist topics and have a discussion with likeminded feminist women, and it turned into a bi bashing fest. There are hardly any online spaces for wlw and lesbians to go to. It's a shame febfems like me have no choice but to seek out lesbian spaces, only to be attacked. Reddit has been taken over, if there was a good febfem or bi forum I'd go to that but there are none, as far as I know. Or a good rad fem forum.
I agree. There's an undercurrent of resentment I keep noticing, like you said it feels normalized for there to be random bi bashing, which I don't find helpful at all, considering many of us likely had very similar experiences, gnc lifestyle and harassment for being gnc and "gay". Like, at some points it feels like very personal stories being twisted into overarching facts. I'd seen women bemoan the small lesbian dating pool one moment (like really dramatically, "I'll never find a partner, forever alone! PLEASE ANYBODY", and then complain about bi women in the other, and that they "aren't as committed, and can't really be trusted" just because they had a confusing experience with someone. And imply certain things about the mentality and general morality of bi women, but then when confronted react in anger and deflect. Then when you talk with them more it seems like they just have a short fuse for bisexuality in general, and it really is biphobia coloring their judgement.
Like sorry if your bi girlfriend Sandra broke up with you and didn't give you a good enough reason, or you met a girl at a club, and you both were bad at communicating, and thus had an awkward on-and-off-again until you found out she wasn't really committed, but that doesn't mean that's the fault of bisexuality. That's just human relationships. And even if they want to pull out the "most bi women end up in straight relationships" (though I doubt the stats that are repeated), why do so many think it makes sense to hold resentment or "othering" towards bi women. That's not a good way to build relationships, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
As for lesbian/wlw spaces, yeah I wish there were more. But, I can't say I ever really felt like I belonged anywhere, by default every place felt foreign and I always felt like I have to adapt to wherever I am. It's nice to find ovarit I guess, I agree with many things here, but the biphobia throws me off. (And yes, the seeming purity culture that implies strong-independent-revolutionary-lesbian vs bisexual-secret-bimbo dynamic.)
I'm personally very woman aligned in my outlook and views, and I feel that we bis are treated and seen as being no different than the literal lesbophobic straights by the lesbians.Some feel that they have more in common with gay men than us bi and febfem women. What ever floats your boat I guess. We are loathed just the same.
Some feel that they have more in common with gay men
Yeah I saw that sentiment more than I would've expected to. I can get it if they just always hang out with gay men for some reason (but isn't that being male-centered?), but as someone who knew too many misogynistic gay men (and ones who would act predatory to me in private, making excuses that they're maybe bi, even though they were publicly, strictly gay) that's also fucked up.
You're really gonna say you have more in common with males than the "untrustworthy bi women". OK.
I do feel a certain solidarity with gay men myself, but at the end of the day, they are males with a male pov. As males, I don't think they can ever be truly woman aligned in their perspective and outlook.
I've definitely noticed this online too. The resentment towards bis. The idea that all bis are male aligned and center males is just wrong. I feel misjudged but also misunderstood as a febfem. I want to open up about the heteropatriarchy, and discuss things openly with people who I feel would truly get where I'm coming from, only to be shouted down and told, you're just a man worshipping bislut. I honestly just want to commiserate with fellow women I'm not the enemy just because I'm a febfem we shouldn't be treated as such.
Men try to turn us, and consider us a conquest.
Our dating pool is infinitely smaller.
I wanted to type this out when I was on a computer,
How one navigates the world is solely dependent on the social giving's granted to them by the overarching opinions within society.
We can absolutely have a bi woman relate more to a lesbian when she has only engaged with women, because society will treat her as such. But, it's also keen to note, that this relation is a sliver in the overarching span of how both parties are perceived,
Personally, if you want more niched differences (personal opinion, and it's very possible that a bi woman can relate to some of these - so feel free to pipe up),
The entire span around talking about men in every stage of my life was some of the most isolating, heart breaking experiences.
When I was younger, it impacted me because it made me feel broken, different, and I was very much ostracized because I would either blank or walk away from these conversations entirely. I didn't know what to say, I didn't give two rat's arses what men were attractive.
It was compounded more-so, when a couple of times people would half-ass some sort of awkward joke about being gay. And never in a "haha, good for you", it was moreso "haha, you're man game is weak so you must be a lesbian". It was treated lesser, always like a joke.
When I got older, it was side-swiped comments from relatives come Christmas or Thanksgiving. My mother would come to me about conversations relatives brought up, and concluded that since I've never brought a 'boyfriend' around, I must have been sexually abused. I had aunts with good intentions try and defer me to clinics (their heart was in the right place, but the context, and where it was coming from, made me feel again, broken).
I don't offer any sort of conversation about my personal life, as my romantic status has previously become the center of the wrong sort of companies attention. Bi friends (dating men), would keep tabs on me (information they offered, it's happened twice from two different couples). On whether or not I'm 'available to fuck'. But it doesn't end there. Older friends who have drifted, gotten married, and haven't spoken to me in years. Will reintroduce themselves into my life by asking to sleep with me (both bi and heterosexual(?) alike). So I feel guarded and protective with my speech patterns and pronoun usage when referring to my partner,
In company, I'm awkwardly treated like a strange sort of ambassador for the rest of the community, I can imagine the TQ+ crap doesn't help. There's a lot of eggshell-walking, a lot of people running through me the formalities about how to treat X and Y. It's alienating. I'm just like you, my partner will be a woman. That's it, there's nothing more to tell.
I have to constantly fly thoughts like;
"will holding my girlfriends hand or kissing increase the likelihood of us being assaulted or harassed in the moment?"
"Will we have our services denied or disregarded because we're lesbians?"
"Will my parents treat her as a person?"
My safety and comfort is no longer within my power, as it's subject to the opinions of those who perceive me, and they make it abundantly clear that I'm a sex object/porn category at best, and a god-given waste of a woman at worst.
I love who I am, I'm proud to be a lesbian,
But everyone else makes it their mission to make me feel lesser, and that's what I loathe.
I would say I generally relate to the issues yeah. Just because I feel attraction to men doesn't mean I date them. I just don't feel the need to lie about my orientation nor be ruled by it. I've been abused and ostracized and objectified. I've been physically abused by men so I did not have an easy time around them, and it wasn't easy unlearning trauma responses years after.
I've worried about safety for being a woman and for possibly being targeted for being visibly wlw, but I've also been assaulted by strangers in the past for less so I don't really hyper-focus only on that because I myself have bad luck or some sort of aura that makes me a target for violent people, so I know it's luck based. Some people may go their whole lives without experiencing wild violence, some just need to look at a psycho the wrong way or turn their back.
As for verbal putdowns, I've also had the displeasure of knowing a lot of people with personality disorders, so I've experienced so many teardowns of my being and identity, I've seen that some people will latch onto anything they can get their hands on about you to make you feel inferior. It never made me any less attracted to women.
I don't really see any of these as exclusive to lesbians, the worries are valid for any wlw so I don't really know where to "pipe up." If you're with a woman, these are issues you will worry about. If you are a woman your safety will depend on the opinions of those who perceive you, and unfortunately no matter if you're lesbian or straight, you are a porn category for many many many men.
I understand,
But you speak as if you're mentally relating to it, I'm referring to what's been consistent dating my few long-term girlfriends,
And, I'm sorry. Most of what was mentioned was your damaged dynamics with men? I'm sorry about that, by the way, they can be wretched creatures,
But I do fail to see how our experiences correlate in that regard, help me out?
Most of the worries you spoke on were your fears about men harassing or attacking you, or seeing you as an object. It's frustrating you would mention all that then pretend somehow that's different from my experience. You mentioned hard words from other women, and I experienced that too, as I mentioned from people who would tear me down for everything, from acting like a d*ke or anything else unsavory. It just seems to me you're twisting words to keep some sort of purity separation, though we worry about the same-things, and there really isn't much of a distinction between a lesbian dating women and a bisexual woman dating women. Other than anxieties that many lesbians apparently hold about being betrayed, which they pin on bisexuality itself somewhat vindictively.
I'm not pretending, it's completely different from my experience. Which is why I'm asking you to clarify what points specifically. I made mention about men once or twice, but most of the discouragement has come from close friends, family and strangers reacting DIRECTLY towards my same-sexed relationship. She was there, we both were. General opinions can absolutely be experienced by both, but direct confrontation is WORLDS apart from what you're speaking about (some, of which I don't even understand)
Purity culture..? are you okay? what are you even talking about?
I'm sorry you want to relate, but it's one-sided. And that's okay. I've given you specifics, and you countered with nothing in association. And then, instead of clarifying. You go off on this tangent?
I don't think your attraction to women is lesser, I don't think any bi woman intentionally seeking women to date treat their partners as lesser.
I'd advise collecting yourself before responding, it's not good to come into these things looking for a fight, keep that shit on reddit if you want one-sided opinions where lesbians can't speak
I think this whole bi vs lesbian thing is getting ridiculous. I don't get why there can't be solidarity. I'm not exclusively attracted to women like you are, but it doesn't mean we have absolutely nothing in common or have no common ground to work with. Why can't we work together. I feel probably just as strongly as you do about certain issues, I am all for letting lesbian women be free to love who they want to love, but you just don't want to give bis a chance. bummer. Heteropatriarchy sucks for all non straight people. Biphobia is real, i cant believe we're being attacked and $hit on.
I will say that i think all this judgement and prejudice against bi women seems pretty stupid considering there are male identified lesbians like Megan Rapinoe. I like her straight teammates like Alex Morgan way better. Rapinoe supports TIMs in women sports and is loud and proud of it. I relate to other woman identified women the most, because I am a woman identified woman before i am anything else. I think this infighting amongst bis and lesbians seems silly and pointless. They literally have an entire thread dedicated to traitor lesbians who support TIMs on lchat, but they direct all their vitriol towards bi women. It really has turned me off to the idea of there being a greater lgb community where I belong. I'm sorry if some bi woman hurt you personally, but it truly ain't cute the way some lesbians attack and insult bis. The chip on the shoulder and victim mentality of some lesbians is so off-putting. The minute I was attacked for no reason, called a bislut and man worshipper, was the minute i stopped taking them seriously. I've since detached, and stopped caring about the community as a whole. I'm just not emotionally invested, I'm only for myself now Being febfem, bi, or lesbian isn't a choice, but being an abusive a_hole is.
I relate to this, I've also experienced comphet even though I'm bi. I think when people talk about "straight-passing privilege" (which I do believe exists) they're using specific examples of bi women who are in a long-term relationship with a man and are fine with that. In some cases, they may even identify as bi even though they somewhat view their attraction to women as a past phase. I don't think people should assume that homophobia or harm is taking place where it actually does not, so I think it's okay to take the women at their word when they say they're satisfied in that relationship.
Bi experiences can vary a lot, so some people view themselves as somebody who's mostly straight but happens to be bi. Whereas some others view themselves as mostly gay. Others firmly always identify as bisexual/pansexual/whatever other label.
Now, yes, many bi women don't want to end up with a man. So bi womanhood definitely shouldn't be defined that way. I personally am not comfortable dating men unless it's some kind of relationship with a bi man. Still, you could say that there's a psychological privilege if a woman is able to be attracted to men, because it wins you some favor with men. Men are controlling and jealous towards women, so they may particularly dislike lesbians because lesbians don't want any man at all.
Or the fact that because I identify as bi means I'm projecting to men that sapphics aren't very serious about women, and center men.
Yeah, bi women definitely shouldn't be penalized for simply being honest about our orientation. But there seems to be a straight-ification happening to the definitions of bi and lesbian. I hope that trend reverses...
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I dated a bi partner who claimed to have the whole "bi cycle" thing and it felt so degrading. Personally I can't imagine meeting someone, falling in love, building a life together, and then suddenly losing attraction to them because of a "bi cycle." It's not something I've ever experienced in myself. I'm either pairbonded with someone, or I'm not. Being bi isn't like being a werewolf, with your orientation beholden to the cycles of the Moon or something.
Plus if your orientation can shift from heterosexual to homosexual on the short term, doesn't that imply your orientation could shift permanently?? Isn't that kind of homophobic? People don't change sexual orientation.
I have the suspicion "bi cycle" is mostly something used by bi men to excuse dumping/cheating on people.
The only possible exception I could maybe see if for single people, whose social circle happens to shift from mostly straight people to mostly lesbians. I.e. "I mostly dated men, most of my friends were straight, so most of my attraction was directed toward men. But then I moved to a new town with a better lesbian social scene, so now I'm mostly dating women and my attraction is mostly directed toward women." But that's not an internal change of sexual orientation, it's just a matter of which way your attraction is better able to express itself in a given situation.
Anyway, just a little rant on the whole "bi cycle" thing.
From a lesbian perspective, who hid behind and labeled herself bisexual despite not having sexual interest in men when I was younger, being the actual minority and not having a choice like bisexuals do. The anxiety I have that a girl will leave me for a man if she doesnt like women 100%. Watching your friends prioritize male romantic interaction while you sit on the side lines feeling kinda awkward. Some women will think we are the "predatory lesbian" to our female friends. Feeling alone because most of your bisexual friends choose heterosexual relationships. Thinking you have a chance when a cute girl says "Im bisexual" but what she meant by that was she just thinks skinny white women are hot and then you dont actually have a chance with her, so womp womp! Embarrassing.
People say to you "you are too pretty to be a lesbian, you dont look like one". cringe. And lastly: if you have lonely issues, the suckiness of feeling you are going to be alone for the rest of your life. All these are my experience.