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[–] gnarlyfem 65 points Edited

I always like to point out to those that think sex work is a legit job, that if it were to become fully legal, there’s nothing to stop your boss from requiring you to perform oral sex on him. If you neglect some of your job duties, you’re fired. There’s no argument they can use without looking like total hypocrites.

Exactly! Right after the initial COVID shutdowns, there were stories on the news about landlords trying to solicit sex from female tenants who were suddenly unemployed and unable to pay rent. If "sex work is work", why is this request any more outrageous than a landlord allowing a tenant to do maintenance or gardening around the property in lieu of paying rent?

And then there are issues regarding government assistance. Like, if a woman is receiving unemployment and refuses a job offer to work in a legal brothel, she could lose her benefits (this actually happened in Germany). Once governments start treating prostitution like any other job, it becomes hard to justify letting desperate women opt out of it

Yes! and it makes the fight against sexual harassment in the workplace nil!

Then again, why would I expect rich woke women to give a damn about the female worker?

Wasn't there a situation in Germany where women were denied unemployment benefits after they had refused to take up a job as a prostitute? Most people would agree that if you refuse a job you're qualified for, even if it's working at a grocery store or being a janitor, you shouldn't be collecting benefits. Basically every young woman is "qualified" to be a prostitute. I'd love to hear people bending themselves into a pretzel explaining why refusing work as a prostitute is different from refusing work as a janitor. Society considers people who think certain jobs are beneath them and then beg for money lazy and entitled but I've never heard of anyone calling women who don't want to have sex for money that. Actually, women who do have sex for money are the ones being called lazy and entitled.

[–] thebaroness 8 points Edited

This is exactly where I see this heading so I looked it up. This article is dated but the agency admits that if they could require women to prostitute themselves under current social norms, they would.

https://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/outrage-after-job-center-suggests-brothel-job-for-young-woman-in-germany-a-882021.html

"Other duties as assigned."

If sex work is just regular, everyday labour, workplace sexual harassment doesn't exist anymore.

I actually don’t know about that. There are a lot of things that are work that’s legal and your boss can still not require you do that and you can go to management and HR about it. Like if you are a teaching/research assistant your professor can’t expect you to clean his car and get his dry cleaning. That’s not in your job description. I know a few professors did that when I was in graduate school until the Dean had a meeting and asked the professors to quit doing that or they find themselves with no assistants and told assistants that they didn’t have to do things that aren’t in their job description. Should sex work ever become legal we all should remember that.

It can be put in the job description, though. "Other duties to be determined" would probably suffice as well. Then you run into the issue that pennygadget raised above - what do you do when women refuse to take the job? Can they get unemployment?

[–] [Deleted] 1 points Edited

They can’t. That’s when you go to HR. There is in no circumstances where an engineer or a teacher needs to give a blow job for anything to do their jobs. It’s the same as asking an engineer to get coffee, you can and should say no. It’s not part of an engineers job duties. Or a teacher to clean the principals house. Those are beyond the general job duties of a teacher and they can say no and keep their jobs.

It's unlikely to fly in professional jobs, sure. But what about jobs that are already mostly or entirely about keeping customers happy, like sales or the hospitality industry?

Not in the US. It's illegal to ask a director level employee to wash your car. That director level employee can quit but not sue you. It's just bad management to require stuff like that. And someone higher up might not approve of you doing it. But again, not illegal.

In other countries, where workers protections are stronger, employers can only require employees to do things in their job description. But they can still change the job description and add more things to the list.

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I'm listening to a podcast about the Long Island Serial Killer. He/they (could be multiple ppl, no one knows) targeted incredibly petite prostitutes. Most of the women had terrible childhoods. They were abused, addicted to drugs, suffering from PTSD, or struggling with mental illness. They didn't deserve to die. The police didn't investigate their disappearances and deaths because they were seen as just trashy prostitutes who no one would miss. I kept thinking last night, when people say sex work is work, they never picture these poor women. They never think about the realities they faced, or why they turned to this to survive, or the men making them do it. It's always depicted as a safe, healthy, independent, care-free quick and easy thing to do. The glamorizing of sex work hurts women and girls, and now it's seen as a normal thing to aspire to for many girls.

It breaks my heart how some of the most vicious defenders of "sex work is work" are privileged women who think they're being woke. And even when you tell them the reality (or ask why they or their daughters aren't working the street corners if its such great "work"), they get defensive and angry. Internalized misogyny is a hell of a drug

I have worked with women in prostitution a lot and this makes me so angry! I carry those women in my heart and across my shoulders, simply because I always had to think about how when my niece was born, her whole family was over the moon and we all kept doing everything to keep her safe and happy (first niece/grandchild) and how there never ever was a doubt she was and is loved. Those women didn't have that. They were unlucky, my niece was lucky.

I know one woman who is suffering from, I guess, bulimia and essentially only eats candy. I'm not a decorater, but whenever I fix her an (unhealthy) snack, I go out of my way to make it look pretty. I guess I do so because I have no other way of telling her that she has value and would have deserved so much better.

My family was briefly homeless when I was a kid. And I know that the ONLY reason I didn't either turn to prostitution or kill myself is because my parents gave a damn about me and I never had to fear sexual violence from male relatives. Something so basic would save so many women from a lifetime of misery

Robert Kolker's book on the victims, Lost Girls, does an excellent job at humanizing them. It also includes a quote from Amber's sister who is also a prostitute. She says in no uncertain terms that prostitution is not empowering. I think of her and her words often.

A man wrote it? Wow

I know, right?! He also wrote about the death of one (possible) victim's mother, focusing on her strengths without overlooking her flaws. It's an excellent article.

The police didn't investigate their disappearances and deaths because they were seen as just trashy prostitutes who no one would miss. I kept thinking last night, when people say sex work is work, they never picture these poor women.

That’s been true since centuries. I remember reading about Jack the Ripper and he targeted prostitutes exactly because people treated them like trash. A lot of crime novels talk about dead prostitutes because police usually don’t take those crimes seriously. It’s a well known fact and I don’t get why we should pretend that this isn’t the case.

[–] yesisaiditxx 8 points Edited

No of course they don’t think of them. People claim to actually know “sex workers” and 95% of who they’re talking about are young, hot city girls with an onlyfans.

Also...they talk as if it’s just the “stigma” that needs to be taken away for it to magically become totally safe. Do they really think men will become less depraved sexually and less violent to these women if there’s no social shame in using their bodies as living masturbation and fetish vessels? Do they really think a world is even POSSIBLE in which men wouldn’t preach “feminist” attitudes to sex work for the sake of getting it easily while simultaneously thinking he of course wouldn’t date, marry, or have kids with such a woman? No matter what you do most men who solicit prostitutes look down on them and some will abuse them. That is almost as inherent in our biology as other sexual characteristics IMHO. I honestly think giving them the green light would make it worse.

ETA the trans autogynephilic fantasy of being “used and abused” by males coupled with the libfem “the only way to overcome your sexuality’s subordination is to be totally free with it” is a horrifically perfect storm for this BS.

That's a great point. if it's work, it's shitty, exploitative, dangerous, degrading work. Work nobody should be asked to do.

Also, if it's just a job like any other, they should be delighted for their children's school career service to be suggesting it to their children as a career path and for their own kids to go and do some work experience on street corners for their resume. No, thought not.

Yes, let's not forget children can do some types of work under certain conditions. So say your teenage daughter wants a summer job but all the fast food gigs are taken, guess these people would be just as okay with her going to stand on the street corner as they would with her flipping burgers somewhere. Work is work, right?

Yep, me staring at excel spreadsheets for even 10-11 hours a day cannot be compared to a woman having to have men violate her body repeatedly. How disingenuous

The fact that pro "sex work" people act as if they're standing up for the little guy or some shit is so insanely disingenuous. The vast, overwhelming majority of prostitutes are exploited. If these libfem-types wanted to protect and empower these women, they would fight to shut the whole thing down, not legalize it.

I have said this before too.. they think sex work is Only Fans. Anyone with a little bit of clout runs to sell their nudes on Only Fans these days. I was reading on the Twitch Reddit sub that many female streamers are just there to build clout to market their Only Fans and will dress protectively for the streams and fill their Twitter with lewd photos. Twitch recently banned the word "simp" and "whore" and using them is an instant ban because the Twitch to Only Fans pipeline is lucrative business.. similarly the reality tv show 90 Day Fiance has picked up so many people featured there head off to Only Fans.. sitting in your room and taking a few nudes and having big bucks roll in because you had some clout is an extremely privileged position to be in.. and they want us to respect it and value it as a white collar 9-5 job which requires some real skill and a degree.. when sex work is actually those who stand on the street corners, have to go in hotel rooms and cars of randoms, have pimps, put their life and wellbeing in danger, get exposed to biohazards and medical waste on a daily basis, cant access medical care.. but they will never mention the street corner workers because it debunks their narrative and will instead engage in semantics "i am not a prostitute nor do i do porn, I just sell nudes on the internet"

...but they will never mention the street corner workers because it debunks their narrative...

And the ones who do acknowledge the trafficking victims, the impoverished, & the women on the streets treat them like rare anomalies instead of the norm when it comes to prostitution

You should have a read of some of the defences of the Leeds managed some in Holbeck.

I read one by a street worker, and it was just so sad. She was essentially arguing that it being decriminalised made it easier for her to report the abuse she received. My view on this is if a factory was suddenly supervised and it was found that there was an increase in reports of serious injuries, you wouldn't be 'yay! Let's keep the factory open and supervise it!' You'd shut it down!

But apparently the act of making it easier to report the abuse is the justification to keep it decriminalised. I just don't get it. Have a system that means the women don't have to sell their bodies and the men that buy them are treated and shamed for the criminals they are.

The same argument is used in favour of only fans. "It is behind a pay wall, if anyone leaks it or screenshots it, we can sue". Nothing has ever been safe behind a paywall in the entire history of pay walls.

90 Day Fiancé people go on Only Fans?

Plenty. Their only fans get leaked on 90 Day Fiance subs all the time. Mods delete them eventually, but usually one person takes one for the team, signs up and screenshots and shares to the sub.

That's a good one to keep on hand. I also liked this crib sheet from Feminist Current a few years back: https://www.feministcurrent.com/2018/12/17/prostitution-not-work-crib-sheet/

This is excellent, thank you for posting (and I'll confess the Shakespeare comment made me chuckle).

I also like to point out to the woke bros who try to justify prostitution by saying all labour under capitalism is exploitative that if sex work is work and all work under capitalism is coercive, then sex work is also coercive. And we have another word for coerced sex - RAPE. By their own logic, sex "work" is rape.

A lot of them think all work is literally slavery. So basically the nurse that works in the ER working a stressful but high paying and respected job is every bit of a slave as a child working in a sweat shop. They also think sex is no big deal and that in many ways prostitution is the ideal job because women can actually make so much money! I stopped even trying to debate with the pro prostitution crowd.

YES!!!!!

We need to pass by the “work” argument and focus on how harmful sex “work” is to women.

No matter what you call it, camming, prostitution, etc is harmful to women.

What do you guys think about the legal, licensed brothels operating in Nevada? And women freely obtaining money through OnlyFans when it comes to porn?

I'm legitimately curious. I know that many radical feminists prefer the Nordic model approach to prostitution and the abolition of porn as an industry, but what do you think about approaches that allow it while at the same time giving women more autonomy and protections?

[–] [Deleted] 8 points Edited

Legal prostitution has been shown to increase trafficking and make it harder to catch pimps.

Also, sex without real consent is always wrong. If a woman doesn't want to have sex with someone and does it because she needs to pay the rent, there's no real consent there

[–] llkit 2 points Edited

Julie burchill did a good expose of the Nevada brothels. There's plenty of sources that critique the brothel model. You seem to have access to the internet, so I'm sure you can find them.

Only fans is certainly portrayed as the acceptable face of sex work. Only the face is very much a fake one. There's been numerous doxxing issues. Concerns about the normalisation of sex work, the sex bias in such work, the propping up of a cultural norms that locates women as sexual objects. What exactly changes there? At the core a radical view cannot accept the legitimacy of comodifying and selling ones sexuality. The notion of autonomy is a lie. The person with the autonomy is the buyer. They choose the images and create the market. I very much doubt much of only fans are people selling images of their own version of sheer sexual joy. Have you seen an authentic orgasm face? Hardly photogenic. And what protections? There are none! Sole trader...

If you genuinely want resources, if you ask, people with more time will share them with you. At the moment, your post comes across as trolling. Asking something like 'what's the rad fem view on only fans' would get a better response I think.

Ah, I'm sorry! I don't mean to sound like I'm trolling. I'm just ignorant of the radical feminist point of view on those two things specifically. I appreciate the writer's name and I'll look up her expose.

[–] Rae 8 points

You're absolutely fine, these types of questions should be welcome here.

You didn't say anything wrong, please don't be sorry! You asked a legit and interesting question, and nothing about it even remotely came off as trolling.

Thanks, it's hard to tell. In Reddit fake naivity was really common in my experience by trolls. You'd expend a lot of labour for snarky replies or they'd just disappear.

It's ok to be new, obvs, but it helps to do some specific asks of your own a opposed to counter case asks in a thread. It was that that looked potentially trolly to me as it has been my experience. All the best in your search.

[–] Rae 7 points Edited

I'm not quite sure how she came across as trolling. She was just asking a question, and such questions should be welcome here. Asking questions are how we will gain a better understanding of these topics.

I couldn't give a shit about Onlyfans' existence. I admit I'm not quite in line with most radfem views on porn and some sex work. If the vanishingly small amount of women who really want to do this and are fine with this being their lives want to take easy money from dumb men, cool, legal, safe, great. Much more concerned about how 'start an OnlyFans' is becoming the new GoFundMe in this pandemic and the idea of selling your body is normalized as just another side hustle like tutoring or driving for Uber.

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