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[Deleted]September 10, 2021
This is what infuriates me about what e.g. Judith Butler says, that the "anti-gender"/gender critical side hasn't read or listened enough to their arguments. The assumption being that if we just listened enough or read the right texts we would magically come to the same conclusions they have. She requests that we engage in intellectual inquiry when what she actually mean is that we should allow ourselves to be indoctrinated. It is the trans activists that dodge intellectual inquiry like their life depended on it, and keep on attacking straw men as a result.
piruca [OP]September 10, 2021
It's religion, period. I have a Jehova's Witness grandma, I've listened to her beliefs my entire existence, it's exactly why I'm opposed to her ideas, yet she, and her community, deeply believe that if people actually listened to them, they would become JW. It doesn't matter that you have counterarguments for their logical fallacies and historical inaccuracies, because THEY'RE THE ONES WHO ARE NOT LISTENING. Queer ideology and religion is basically the same: a belief system set in ideas and not in material reality.
[Deleted]September 10, 2021
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piruca [OP]September 10, 2021
Most lesbians I know peaked years ago when they were told to suck dick or else.
ShotTopicSeptember 10, 2021
Pretty much. My friends who use reddit have peaked or are borderline, while those who only participate in the offline lgbt community haven't.
platypusSeptember 10, 2021
TRAs: listen to transwomen!!
Transwomen: massive milkers and girldique!! breed me daddy! I'm a sissified bimbo cumbrain!!! watch me jerk my peepee in the girl's bathroom!!
TRAs: wait, not THOSE transwomen!
bellatrixbellsSeptember 10, 2021
Oh yes, those transwomen. I've had some male TRAs recommend some of them because they also write about how they wanna slit their wrists if they don't get their way. 😑
Because you know those gross things they say about us are just coping mechanisms for their distress 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
CarthimundiaSeptember 10, 2021
My problem is I listen to trans people and allies but they are incapable of answering the most basic questions about their position. They can’t tell me what a woman is ! So I have no reason to change my position.
GoodGoneGirlSeptember 10, 2021
I wasn’t a libfem but listening to TIMs is one of many things that peaked me.
NoNameSeptember 10, 2021
It's through listening to trans women that I've gone from being sympathetic to realizing it's an entitled group of sexual fetishists masquerading as a marginalized group. That and there's "no debate" because there can't be a debate.
AltheaSeptember 10, 2021
This is so true! It was reading the forum Susans and the asktransgender subreddit that made me peak. Before that, I blithely accepted that trans women were women. I knew nothing about autogynephilia.
desertnightsSeptember 10, 2021
The women's sports conversation going woke was what pushed me over. Testosterone is a performance enhancing drug. Women do not make that androgen. Therefore, no one with testosterone is allowed to compete in women's sports.
SistersovermistersSeptember 10, 2021
It's almost as if the transwomen who constantly shit on terfs forgot what gender critical even implies.. 🤔🤔🤔🤔
mg2000September 10, 2021
this is so true. I used to be very supportive and never questioned anything... until I noticed that the predators and extremists who Blaire White calls out often aren't exceptions.... but the norm.
actualdykeSeptember 10, 2021
this is basically how i peaked. tried to listen to transwomen, all i heard was "we're better women than you inferior cis bitches and you need to shut up and do whatever we tell you to or else you get burned at the stake labeled a terf"
I still don't understand the whole "listen to xx" sthick. I'd rather see actual change.
Also, "trans women" are so freaking loud on so many platforms, I really don't see how we could listen even more.
I agree, and listening does not mean just being silent. It means hearing what people have to say and engaging from a more informed place, having a conversation and working toward a solution.
But nowadays what they really mean is my way or the highway, the speed in social media engagement, as well as the public aspect of it really serve to depersonalize discourse between people, that it's not longer a conversation, but rather an attempt to "win" the argument in the court of public opinions.
With TRAs, each time they engage is a calculated attack against the person they're going after. Their attempts are made to provoke a reaction or just agitate. Most certainly their end goal is to hurt he people they disagree with. The lack of critical thinking, the ability to form an actual argument and not just a slew of vitriol is also worrying. It's sad how it truly is the loudest of idiots that dominate the space, simply because they take up so much of it.
I think the biggest problem is that they'll say "listen to X" but not when X has suffered from it.
Listen to sex workers: but not those who speak against prostitution, those are swerfs. Listen to trans people: but not those who regret it, those are terfs.
You are right. The reason we are supposed to "listen" to those groups (or more specifically those subgroups) most likely is so that they can put a spin on things. It is glaringly obvious that prostitution is not great. But hey, listen to the fringe group of women who actually chose to be "sex workers"! It's not fair if you only consider the perspective of the about 400000 women in Germany who are in prostitution because of extreme poverty or by force, we need to consider the voice of the disenfranchised minority of those who got to choose between becoming scientists or strippers and decided to ecome high class escorts!
Here in Spain the "swerf" argument is specially absurd considering that 80% of prostituted women are victims of human trafficking, Spain is a sexual tourism destination because of this. This is what happens when you actually protect Johns and pimps but not prostitutes, it's cruel and it's ridiculous to ignore them.
If these clowns actually listened to prostitutes, they'd be disgusted and become abolitionists in a heartbeat. Listen to Johns, it's what I'd like to tell TRAs, I dare you, go listen to freaking Johns, then come back and tell me you want to defend their reasons for choosing prostitutes over conventional, consensual sex. I don't know if there's an equivalent to this in english or other languages, but in Spain there's an account that infiltrates John's spaces and posts what these men actually talk about:
extreme racism and exotification: comparing races of women and deciding which one is the best for sex.
aggression: threats and incredibly violent thoughts on women who left them unsatisfied or were under horrible work conditions and were too tired or too young to let them do certain things i.e: anal.
pedophilia: literally asking for "children's menu" as a code word for underage prostitutes, and complaining when it's "not available"
general misogyny: "no women like sex so why bother finding one the regular way (dating)" "my wife would never let me do this" "only prostitutes know how to pleasure a man because normal women don't enjoy sex/are prudes"
I can only read small snippets from time to time because it's way too brutal, but THESE are the men the "anti-swerf" movement are defending. I followed several "high class escort" accounts for a while, and actually have a friend who works in fetish stuff, these women are not happy. They might be rich, yes, but they're jeopardizing their identities, still exposing themselves to great risk, and most of them fall in love with clients who are unable to see them as human, and they suffer from this; normal men don't want to date them and Johns don't think they're people. My friend who does fetish work doesn't let men touch her, she does mostly dominatrix stuff and she's the one making the rules, it still affected her mental health in a deep way, and made her connections with some sketchy characters that she still regrets.
High class escorts only do it because they want luxuries on top of their already normal lives, they aren't women who do it out of necessity, it's women who want to buy 400$ designer shoes every month and think that's a must to reach happiness. Too bad they actually develop intense trust issues and severe self esteem problems.
That's what you learn when you listen to "sex workers", really listen to them, not just read the FAQ on their bio, or read their "empowering" stories they post only so Johns won't stop buying their stuff, TRAs forget that these women are still running businesses, and that unless you actually speak to them and unless they actually open up, you're not getting their full story, just a pamphlet.
I'm in Germany, which is the greatest country on earth for punters. Also, the number 1 hub for human trafficking in Europe. Go, us! Not.
We also have a website dedicated to "listening to Johns". Like you, I can only stand to read very little on there.
I used to work with several organizations looking to help women in prostitution. One person I worked a lot with was a police man. He really, really is a good guy. And a very broken man. Sometimes he and I would have coffee and he kept saying how much he would like to be able to give a voice to the women and how alienating it is to work in such a field in a country that simply chooses to ignore the problem.
Yup, police turns a blind eye to most severe problems: human trafficking, drug lords, child abuse/neglect, domestic violence, but then go apeshit on kids smoking weed or doing graffiti. I legit saw policemen almost beating up a romani kid for not having his passport with him, then I personally know policemen who were reprimanded when they did the right thing, usually, decent policemen hate the police, too much corruption in the forces. I think police is a necessary thing but the way it functions now it's only to protect the powerful and the rich.
Have you seen the truly ridiculous arguments around that gay dude who was scarred during sex with a john? The amount of people going "oh, so he was payed to be scarred? fine by me, then!" is INSANE
And all the homophobic people jumping on to hate him, in the end, no one is going to help him or people in conditions similar to him. They're either praising sex work or using this as fuel to further hate prostitutes instead of Johns. It is indeed insane. Not to mention Devermut's incident.
I find it super sad, he is just 20 years old and I bet he is scared as fuck. I don't believe he lied for kicks, he probably was (justifiably) wary of coming out with the exact circumstances in which he got hurt (which he still did, wtf???)
And the Devermut stuff is maddening, I don't like them BUT STILL? It feels like people were just waiting on them to be in a scandal to attack them because they are "terfs"
Exactly everything you said. He's a kid like many others, who resorted to prostitution because he didn't have any other way out of it, STILL GOT HURT, and people can't see an aggression for what it is.
I don't like Devermut either, but I don't think that makes them deserving of homophobic harassment? The footage is literally being tampered with to make them look bad, it's absurd, plain ol' misogyny and lesbophobia at it's best.
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It was supposed to be "listen to the people your decisions actually affect", i.e. democratic decision-making. So TRAs should for example listen to women in sex-segregated shelters before erasing biological sex in law. But the mantra has become entirely self-serving: listen (only) to those who share the beliefs of the person telling you to listen.
I think some of them also mean that you should listen to "xx" telling you about their suffering. Mild TRAs are usually quite taken by the poow widdle twanswimin narrative.
They let their compassion towards the claimed suffering of these men overcome everything else, all they're bothered about is easing that suffering and they think that the people who oppose their demands are simply unaware of just how much TIMs "suffer" if they can't control and redefine women on their terms. They think that anyone who'll listen to the plea of TIMs will be moved by it like they have or is a cruel, heartless person.
Problem is they have never actually thought it through, or won't because it doesn't personally or immediately affect them so they can't understand why we get our panties all in a bunch over word meanings and privacy ?