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ArmyofMeJanuary 19, 2023
We definitely focus on the womens room issue here because most of us are women and feminists, but it absolutely is an issue both ways.
[Deleted]January 19, 2023
We definitely focus on the womens room issue
Yes and that's 100% fair. Both here and in public discourse about it. Because opening women's spaces to men will put women in danger. Opening men's spaces to women will make men feel a bit awkward. But I was surprised I felt that way
It’s really not that much of an issue the other way but I mean I’m not opposed to men having their own bathroom. They just need to be significantly smaller so women can have larger ones since we take longer and lines form. Rn the existence of men’s rooms annoys me. Give them a stall and save everything else for us
TortoisemouseJanuary 19, 2023
Most men have no idea what it's like to have to stand in a long queue when you need a wee in public. They just get to walk straight in, do what they need to do, walk out. Feels like a metaphor sometimes for how much easier and more straightforward the world is for men in many ways (and how little they are aware of it).
Well it doesn’t take very long to just piss in the general direction of a wall standing up like some kind of wild animal
TortoisemouseJanuary 19, 2023
Especially seeing as there seems to be no urge to wash one's hands after handling one's genitals and getting piss splashed everywhere.
Thank you. This thread is obnoxious. Like no, it absolutely is not an issue both ways?? This is not an actual problem that men have to worry about
It really isn't though. Men aren't in any danger when a woman uses the men's room. Most women can't beat up a man or want to rape men. I always assumed we focus on the women's room bc... this is literally a feminist site dedicated to women's issues
delicate_silicateJanuary 19, 2023
Normally, I avoid urinals because I think it's awkward being exposed like that
I've always found it odd that men are forced to accept this exposure from a young age. Privacy still matters, even when you stand to pee.
[Deleted]January 19, 2023
It wouldn’t even take up much more space to just put in dividers between the urinals.
My son hates them and always goes in a stall.
But thanks to flys and zippers, men and boys can use a urinal with very little of their privates exposed. The only thing that comes out of their pants is their penis, which they can keep partially or largely hidden with their hands as they hold it. (Not that most guys feel much of need to hide their dicks in the first place; on the contrary, lots of boys and men love the chance to "whip it out." )
Plus, the etiquette in men's rooms has always been for men and boys to keep their eyes in front of them when they're standing at a urinal and if they happen to look to their side where another bloke is standing, keep their eyes level. It's considered "bad form" and "not the done thing" to look down to check out other guys' dicks. Which is why when one of the Gallagher brothers from the hugely popular British band Oasis said he once checked out Bryan Ferry's dick when they were stood next to one another at a bank of urinals at some music venue or awards show, the comment made headlines in the UK:
Noel Gallagher has revealed that he once spied on Bryan Ferry’s manhood when he urinated next to him.
The former Oasis rocker found himself sharing a toilet with the Roxy Music frontman and he could't resist taking a sneaky peak at Brian's penis.
Noel insists he wasn't a jealous guy when he saw what notorious ladies man Bryan - who famously covered John Lennon's song 'Jealous Guy' in 1981 - was packing.
When asked if he’d ever spied on another celebrity's penis at a urinal, Noel answered: “Bryan Ferry. I can’t remember it being significantly remarkable either way. Let’s put it this way, I wasn’t a jealous guy! This was a long time ago."
Also, when you take into account their space efficiency, how much easier and quicker they are to use and to aim into, the small amount of water they use, how hygienic they are, the reduced amount of of spillage onto the floor, how easy they and the surrounding areas are to clean, how they eliminate long waiting lines, etc it makes MUCH more sense for men and boys to use urinals for peeing than toilets. So the small loss of personal privacy has to be weighed against the benefits for individual men and boys - and for the facility and society as a whole.
Most guys wouldn't forfeit being able to relieve themselves right away with a simple zip of the fly at a urinal without any waiting in line if the alternative was having to wait for a toilet stall for the way women and girls routinely have to wait. Especially young boys who can't hold it without the risk of peeing their pants, guys who are drunk and high on drugs, men over 50 whose enlarged prostates cause them to have a frequent intense urgent need to pee, and guys whose eyesight and/or penis aim is so poor that they have trouble getting their urine stream in the basin when peeing into a sit-down toilet from a standing position.
[Deleted]January 20, 2023
So the small loss of personal privacy
Idk, I feel like losing any sort of privacy when it comes to peeing next to strangers - especially during childhood when you're a kid trying to pee next to a grown adult - surely has some lasting negative psychological effects. We're animals, it's a vulnerable state. Like we can keep the urinals, just add some walls and a door. Surely it can't take up that much space.
ProxyMusicJanuary 20, 2023
I dunno. Men in various cultures around the world have a long, long history of loving having out naked together in places like bath houses. In ancient times, men did sports naked too.
On the broad-strokes level, the look-straight-ahead bro code at urinals sounds functionally identical to the studied lack of eye contact practiced almost instinctively by everybody (possibly excepting small children) in elevators.
[Deleted]January 20, 2023
They aren't. There are stalls in there too.
[Deleted]January 20, 2023
I really find it odd too. Like thinking of other animals, we all want privacy when we pee. It's a vulnerable thing for male and female animals.
I feel like growing up peeing next to strangers without privacy especially during childhood would instill a lot of anxiety in someone.
[Deleted]January 19, 2023
I used to have a TIF friend who would target inebriated gay men for bathroom sex to "validate" her "identity" as a "gay man". Ofc she would deliberately hide the fact that she was a she from them. She would do everything under the sun to them unless it required her to take her pants down or her shirt off.
That always disgusted me. It doesn't matter that she's a woman, what she did was rape by deception and cohesion. I'd personally argue that, even though female on male rape doesn't pose the same risk to the victim as does male on female, rape is rape is rape, and it's always objectively evil.
I'll die on the hill that says men -- but especially my gay brothers -- also deserve safety, respect, and dignity in their intimate spaces. It's sick when TIMs do this shit to lesbians like me, and it's sick when TIFs to this shit to gay men like you.
AmareldysJanuary 19, 2023
Having male-focused sex in which all the pleasure is focused on him and not on you feels like the most typical heteronormative patriarchy sex possible.
vulvapeopleJanuary 19, 2023
Gay men do it though. There are gay men who really enjoy pleasuring a man without reciprocation to the point some will pay for it. There was a Republican politician several years ago who propositioned an undercover cop with that same offer -- paying to give the cop a blowjob.
Straight men seem to find that confusing if not hilarious.
bluffJanuary 19, 2023
Yeah but women almost never engage in that type of behavior and when they do it's almost always female socialization at play, not a genuine enjoyment of giving pleasure.
Exactly, it's not a real problem that men actually have to worry about
SecondSkinJanuary 19, 2023
Sex by deception is a crime in the UK. She’s not fulfilling a patriarchal role for women by sexually assaulting men by deception. Women are not socialised to believe they are entitled to sexual access to men’s body’s and entitled to deceive them to get it.
I think the poster was just saying that accepting sex entirely/primarily focused on male pleasure is a part of female socialization, which this TIF is displaying.
SecondSkinJanuary 19, 2023
I know, I just disagree that’s the case because it’s not sex it’s sexual assault.
Predators focusing on the physical sexual response of the victim isn’t unheard of. Some peadophiles abuse their victims this way, it’s not pleasure just because it illicits a physiological reaction from the victim. It’s not sex focused on the man’s pleasures, it’s sexual assault.
m0RT_1January 19, 2023
she sounds like a frickin psychopath, what a cruel thing to do
[Deleted]January 20, 2023
She developed mega roid rage after doing T.
She once blew up at me for describing my own anatomy as my "lady parts" because my language wasn't "inclusive".
I think that every man I would be OK with in a public bathroom with me has NO desire to go into the ladies’ and is uncomfortable or even mortified at the concept. These things are related, I’m sure! And I’ve personally witnessed embarrassed fathers in public who need a place to change their baby’s diaper and are hat-in-hand desperate for a changing table (often not found in the men’s), and end up in the ladies’ with exoneration and door guards for the temporary and necessary accommodation.
I think too many people forget that there is an element of comfort and dignity for men, too. That public restrooms are places that witness some of our most vulnerable and uncomfortable experiences as human beings. Everything from miscarriages to bad tacos end up there and every single person deserves to feel like, while they’re curled up and moaning, or have their pants around their ankles, or have their penis exposed, they will not need to be made more uncomfortable by the presence of someone who can never relate to the experience of having that sexed body. For men especially I imagine that even if it’s a place you’re “supposed to” expose yourself, if a woman or little girl walks in, the only thing different about the situation than public flashing is the sign on the door. I think I’d feel so dirty and creepy if that happened to me as the exposed party, and violated as well because it’s involuntarily sex-offending!
pennygadgetJanuary 19, 2023
And I’ve personally witnessed embarrassed fathers in public who need a place to change their baby’s diaper and are hat-in-hand desperate for a changing table (often not found in the men’s), and end up in the ladies’ with exoneration and door guards for the temporary and necessary accommodation.
At my old restaurant job, I often had to clear the women’s bathroom for men who had a disabled female relative that needed help in the toilet. Even though no woman would object to letting an elderly man assist his disabled wife or mother, he still wanted to make sure it was clear so he didn't shock or frighten anyone. Because good men don't WANT those embarrassing situations if they can avoid them
I’ve personally witnessed embarrassed fathers in public who need a place to change their baby’s diaper and are hat-in-hand desperate for a changing table (often not found in the men’s), and end up in the ladies’ with exoneration and door guards for the temporary and necessary accommodation.
I wonder how many of those fathers requested that the managers of those facilities and the other facilities they use install changing station in the men's rooms. The wall-mounted, fold-down Koala types are available online for next-day delivery - and they're neither costly or hard to install.
If men are so embarrassed and in desperate need for a place to change their babies' diapers when out and about, you'd think they'd be clamoring and campaigning for changing stations in men's rooms, which as you note are "necessary accommodation" for the dads of the world. But instead, men seem pretty happy with the status quo. Coz that way they get to keep fobbing off nearly all the diaper changing outside the home on women like it's a job we're naturally suited to, and as though changing stations appeared spontaneously in women's rooms without anyone asking. That way, men with babies and little kids can also play the "poor pitiful me" card and make a big fuss of barging into the ladies with, as you say, "exoneration and door guards" whilst they inconvenience the girls and women who are forced to "hold in it" whilst waiting for the ladies' to be free once again.
Sorry, I have no sympathy or patience for the kinds of fathers you describe using ladies' rooms particularly in this day and age. When I was a little girl, my WW2 combat vet father showed me how men can change a baby's diaper in their laps pretty easily by draping a changing mat across their knees and laying the baby sideways, head on one thigh, butt on the other. That was when my little brother and sister were babies circa 1960-63 - long before there were changing tables in the restrooms for either sex in the US.
TortoisemouseJanuary 19, 2023
men can change a baby's diaper in their laps pretty easily by draping a changing mat across their knees and laying the baby sideways, head on one thigh, butt on the other. That was when my little brother and sister were babies circa 1960-63 - long before there were changing tables in the restrooms for either sex in the US.
I don't know about then, but nowadays you really cannot do that in any cafe/restaurant/bar/shop/public transport. You would be asked to stop/leave. Not surprising, as babies' nappies can really, really stink and if it goes wrong it's a genuine health risk.
Go out to the car, go out to the lobby. There are a million places to change a baby besides the nasty bacteria filled thing in the women's restroom
TortoisemouseJanuary 24, 2023
Hmm. This was rarely an option. I live in a crowded UK city with very limited parking, you can't drive to most places, you have to walk or take public transport, and if you do drive you have to park a long way away, you can't just nip to the car to change a nappy. There are no "lobbies" except in fancy hotels and you wouldn't be welcome to change a baby there. Where possible I have changed my baby in the boot of the car (boot open).
The nasty bacteria thing in the women's toilets is absolutely disgusting and the last place I would ever want to place my baby and then undress them. I used to take a travel change mat with me and put that on top of the changing table and then wash it when I got home. Sometimes I would prefer to use a clean corner of floor in the women's loo rather than use the gross communal table.
It is a problem, and another example of how the world is basically set up for men, and women are just an afterthought.
I’ve done this sitting on the toilet plenty. I’ve done it while nursing one twin in a sling, sitting on the toilet peeing myself. Because postnatal needs with twins meant it was easier than wait for the one disabled access toilet at the toddler group or hv clinic etc, where the only change table was located. It would be very easy for most fathers to use a foldable, cleanable change mat on their knees in a toilet stall. Most would do this if they didn’t want to inconvenience women or the workers at the facilities.
Thank you. Whenever I point out on Ovarit that fathers - and most mothers - can and often do change diapers in our laps, I've gotten a lot of pushback. A lot of women seem unaware of how recent change tables in public places are, and many seem unwilling to admit that the men they know could have changed their kids' diapers all along if only they had wanted to and been willing to use a little ingenuity.
There are many foldable, easy-to-clean change mats with a bit off stiffness to them that work well for changing diapers this way.
I think in reality this is actually easier for most men than women, at least in the first couple of months when we are still struggling with stitches or c sections healing, pelvic separation still being difficult and a postnatal body that still has extra weight in awkward places/lower muscle tone etc still at that point.
Outside of a much older father or a dad with disabilities it would be easier for him to change a baby on his knee or on the ground in a suitable place (park bench etc). Change tables in toilets here are mostly at too low a height outside of family room ones. (Because in disabled access toilets that of course need them at a height for parents in wheelchairs). So bad for a non disabled parents back. (Which is fine, because they really aren’t necessary given how easy it is to change them on knees🤷🏼♀️)
When I had my twins boots routinely gave a way a basic free change bag to any boots advantage card holders and it had a (very basic) fold up change mat in a zip up section in it. It worked just fine ime. I found figuring out changing one while having the other strange at first, unless I was somewhere where the only toilet for everyone was the disabled accessible toilet with change table, then I couldn’t fit a double buggy into the women’s toilets with the other twin in it. So I changed one on a mat on the ground or in the buggy plenty, or put one in a sling and changed the other on my knee etc. and I had very bad pelvic separation still because I have EDS anyways so all my joints separate more than most.
If I managed this with twins with my joints knackered then dads certainly can. I found the minute they were on their feet (so 8months ish) it was easier and quicker to change them standing up while they held onto the buggy or similar. Or sitting upright on me facing away from me (this was the best option if the other was nursing). Rather than fight them to lie down and not roll or wriggle during it.
nowadays you really cannot do that in any cafe/restaurant/bar/shop/public transport. You would be asked to stop/leave.
I wasn't recommending that any man - or woman - ever did or now do this in a cafe, restaurant, bar, shop, or public transport! But men sure can do this sitting on a toilet in a stall in a men's room or in a unisex toilet like on a train or plane. Cafes, restaurants, bars, shops, public transport, highway rest stops and so on that have toilet facilities for women with or without changing tables customarily also have toilet facilities for men with at least one stall with a sit-down toilet. And if there are not sex segregated toilets, men can change their babies on their knees in the toilets that either sex can use like on a plane. There's no reason any man would have to use my dad's method in the eating area of a restaurant or bar, the floor of a shop, the passenger compartment of a plane, an airport lounge or waiting area, or any other non-bathroom area of a public place.
If there's no toilet around, parents of both sexes can and do change their babies on their knees, the ground or in other improvised ways in out of the way places such as under a little-trafficked stairwell or unused alcove at church, under the bleachers at an older kid's sports practice.
babies' nappies can really, really stink and if it goes wrong it's a genuine health risk
Yeah, that's pretty well known, and always has been to the general public and especially those of us who have had or cared for babies. The fact that babies' nappies can really stink and be quite a mess of fecal matter, causing a real health risk, is all the more reason for fathers as well as mothers to be able to change diapers/nappies promptly and efficiently rather than a dad saying he had no choice but to let the baby sit in a stinky load for hours when because there were no changing tables in the men's rooms. It's also why fathers as well mums should carry not just baby wipes, but anti-bacterial wipes and plastic bags to contain the smell of stinky diapers they dispose in the trash in any public places, even in restrooms. It's gross when people out in public just toss stinky shitty nappies in the trash so they can stink up the place and emit poop particles into the air. It's grosser still when parents do this without bothering to fold and close up the poopy diapers first.
Confession: As a very inexperienced new mother, I did once change my baby in the outside area of a cafe, on the floor by the table. I was quite rightly admonished by the cafe owner and the shame has stayed with me.
Yes, absolutely agree with everything you say, Proxy. For some reason it didn't occur to me that the dads could be changing the baby inside the toilet stall.
I have changed a baby using a portable change mat on the floor of the women's bathroom before. It didn't occur to me that I could have changed the baby on my knee sitting on a closed toilet seat, which would have been much preferable.
Nobody teaches you this stuff!!! One of the side effects of an atomised society and the way women are isolated from one another. And that men don't really GAS to work any of this stuff out.
My thoughts exactly. Go out to the car or something. You know they aren't making any phone calls or demanding anything
EavaJanuary 20, 2023
I have had 2 kids and never in a million years would I have tried that, especially with a poopy diaper.
sarstanJanuary 19, 2023
I don't think men should be made to share bathrooms with women either. I'm embarrassed on behalf of women that women are doing this to men. I know there is not the same threat of violence against men, but privacy and dignity are important too. Those are the main factors for my not wanting to share bathrooms or other spaces with men, and although it's different for women bc of male violence and male sexualization of women (especially men who fetishize womanhood), I hope men start speaking out publicly against women in their spaces too.
Agreed.
I went to see a movie with a male friend recently, and afterwards we both used the restroom. When he came out again, I was still in line, and he told me I could just use the men's since it was empty then anyway. But I didn't, because I'm not a hypocrite.
I only used the men's room in such a situation once, years ago, and that made me so uncomfortable that I never repeated that. And not because the men there made me nervous or scared, but because I felt that I was making them uncomfortable.
sarstanJanuary 19, 2023
I've used it drunk when there was nobody in there or it was a single room. And not for a long time now.
jessebelleinhellJanuary 19, 2023
This isn't exactly the same thing, but I'm gonna share it anyways before I forget it.
When I was a young, wild teenager I got into trouble with drugs and ended up having to go to outpatient rehab.
One of the stipulations in treatment was that everyone had to be have their urine screened once a week..but what I wasn't prepared for is that they would watch me with the door open while I did it. It was so embarrassing and uncomfortable that it would sometimes take me close to thirty minutes to relax enough to pee. And I wasn't the only one that felt that way, the boys in our group complained about it too and sometimes couldn't even do it all and would get in trouble.
I mean, I know they had their reasons for doing it that way, but no one should ever have their privacy violated like that. It is so so humiliating..and what worries me is now they could assign trans people to fill these types of positions in treatment facilities (and mental health hospitals) where as before it at least had to be someone of the same sex.
It just amazes me how little people are thinking this whole thing through.
pennygadgetJanuary 19, 2023
I think I've heard stories of some rehab places and prisons already forcing women to be supervised by TIMs when taking a urine test
vulvapeopleJanuary 19, 2023
There was a story in the comments on GenderTrender several years ago. Of course, the woman couldn't complain since she'd just be punished for it.
jessebelleinhellJanuary 19, 2023
And you know they get off on every minute of it..they get to safely live out their voyeuristic fantasies. I hope to god I never end up in a nursing home, care facility or prison. They already let unsupervised male cnas provide intimate care to women in hospitals and nursing homes. Even if you put in a request for a female aide.
ProxyMusicJanuary 19, 2023
I mean, I know they had their reasons for doing it that way, but no one should ever have their privacy violated like that.
It's not just people in drug rehab who have to give urine samples by peeing in front of others, though. So do employees at some workplaces in certain industries, and so do all elite athletes who come under the purview of world and national anti-doping regulations.
Interestingly, I never have heard any athletes of either sex subject to the anti-doping testing say that "no one should ever have their privacy violated like that." Lots of big-name world-class athletes like Lindsey Vonn and Andy Murray have been caught off guard when sports officials showed up and inopportune times and places to make them take a pee test under their watch right then and there - and these top athletes have always dutifully complied like genuine good sports, so to speak. Because athletes who play fair know that if every athlete subject to anti-doping regulations didn't have to pee with two official observers from a sports governing body looking on, then lots of athletes would cheat.
https://www.espn.com/olympics/skiing/story/_/id/9345838/lindsey-vonn-goes-red-carpet-drug-testing
DarthVelmaJanuary 19, 2023
Well, when athletes do complain, they get multi-year bans from their sport. This happened to pairs skater Kyoko Ina. Someone showed up at her house for an unannounced out-of-competition test at 10:30pm. There were all sorts of shenanigans. Turned out the tester's license had expired. She gave Ina bad information that she could sign a form and be tested the next day. Ina tried to reach USADA's 24-hour hotline to confirm and no one picked up the call.
I think Ina put it best in her own words: "It is simply unreasonable and improper for USADA to send a person to an athlete's home late at night who not only is uninformed, but unlicensed -- accompanied by her boyfriend -- to observe me all night until I could perform a bodily function."
Yeah, you read that right. The tester brought her boyfriend with her to a female skater's home late at night to watch her pee. And Ina had NO choice but to let them in her house. And when she couldn't pee on command, she ended up suspended. No common sense is allowed when it comes to drug testing athletes. And if I was an athlete and knew what happened to Kyoko, I'd probably keep my mouth shut too.
jessebelleinhellJanuary 19, 2023
Well, I'll try to think of Lindsey Vonn or Andy Murray if I ever relapse and feel uncomfortable about having to take a piss test in front of someone. Thanks!
[Deleted]January 19, 2023
There might be a different protocol in those situations. When I was drug tested for my job, I had to leave all my belongings in a locker and they put some chemical in the toilet to make sure I actually peed. But no one was in there watching me, I closed the door and had privacy.
ProxyMusicJanuary 19, 2023
The protocol for urine testing of athletes under WADA is for two anti-doping officials to witness an athlete providing the sample. I believe the regulations say the officials must be of the same sex as the athlete being tested.
It's been a while since I looked, but the anti-doping protocols used by the ADA and WADA are all explained online in text and videos. The materials are very thorough. It's very clear that a lot of thought went into how to make the collection of urine and blood samples from athletes as easy for everyone as possible, and to make them ironclad against cheating, tampering and bribing. Once the officials show up and have face to face contact with the athlete, the athlete is not allowed out of their sight until the testing is done.
Once the testers showed up at Andy Murray's place in London to take his urine and blood as the tennis star was about to leave to go to Buckingham Palace, where was being given an award by the Prince of Wales. Even then, Murray couldn't get out of it.
[Deleted]January 19, 2023
TIL thanks! regular employment testing is thankfully way less involved
But I bet a lot of thought went into the employment testing to make it easier on the person being tested. And to make it less time-consuming for the employer.
When you were tested at your job, you say they put a chemical in the toilet to make sure you actually peed. So did you pee into the toilet or into a sample cup? If into the toilet, was it a special toilet with no water?
Also, did you have to strip and wear a hospital type gown? If they let you wear your own clothes, did they let you wear long sleeves or layers and did they go through your pockets, socks, etc beforehand? Lots of people over the years have tried to thwart workplace drug tests by smuggling in vials or tubes of other people's urine taped to their skin, hidden in socks and shoes, stuck up their sleeves, in hems of clothing, etc.
JuniperiusJanuary 20, 2023
Wow, this is really elaborate! I used to be an OTR truck driver, subject to DOT regulations including random drug testing, and I didn't have to do anything like that. When I was headed for one of my company's terminals, my dispatcher would send me a message asking me to go to the office when I arrived. This didn't give anything away because there were any number of reasons I might need to check in. So I'd arrive, be told it was time for a random drug test, and I'd go with the teat administrator to a bathroom, where I would use a toilet with a simple divider on the other side of which the admin would stand. She could hear what I was doing but not see, and I don't remember any other precautions being taken (I left that job nearly 15 years ago, though, so there may be details I've forgotten, but I definitely would remember if I'd had to put on a hospital gown!). Once I went to the restroom before going to the office, and when I learned I'd have to do a drug test, I had to sit around and drink water until I was able to pee again. I technically failed that test because my urine was too dilute, so I had to go to a lab to get a hair test.
[Deleted]January 20, 2023
I had to go to a lab that did the test (it wasn't done at my job). The toilet water had a blue chemical in it, and a quick google search (since I wasn't really sure why it was there) shows that it's so a person can't dilute their pee with toilet water. I did not have to strip and wear a hospital gown or anything. I think I took my shoes off. I don't really vary my wardrobe so I know I wore leggings and a tank with a sweater overtop, and I know they made me put the sweater in the locker with my shoes, bag, phone, etc. I guess they found a balance between giving people privacy and making sure it wouldn't be easy to game the system. Maybe they have a more rigorous procedure if an employer suspects something, but the initial drug test wasn't horrible.
Kinda crazy that athletes can be tested at anytime AND they still have people watching them pee. Like, they'd have to carry around someone else's pee hidden on their body everywhere....which seems crazy and a huge hassle to me but then again I guess some people competing at that level would do anything to win including that.
[Deleted]January 19, 2023
Men also deserve dignity and rights.
I really hate to be the one to say this, but until more men speak up more about these things, the onus has really only been on women and as we’re seeing, our voices just don’t seem to be as equal.
Until more men speak up, I don’t think we’re going to see any common sense prevail.
[Deleted]January 19, 2023
but until more men speak up more about these things, the onus has really only been on women and as we’re seeing, our voices just don’t seem to be as equal.
This is so true, people will listen to men sticking up for us before they even consider listening to us sticking up for themselves.
[Deleted]January 20, 2023
I wonder if more men ARE speaking up because they realize that they get the TIF side of the coin.
I don't talk in their favor much since I'd probably be accused of being MRA-lite, but I agree: they also deserve dignity and rights.
It just sucks that reason and those espousing it tend to be drowned out by privilege, entitlement, mental illness and the rotting garbage that is the majority of bad apples in the barrel.
[Deleted]January 19, 2023
Everyone has given well-said input already.
I want to say that I appreciate that you identified your sex and sexual orientation in your user name and flair.
Of course you don't but the bottom line is that women are not a threat to you the way men are a threat to us. This isn't even a real problem that men actually have to worry about bc women don't want access to mens single sex spaces
Even Ovarit can’t keep men from centering themselves, and the community just falls all over them to encourage it
Right? This post annoyed me and I was surprised at all the fawning. Like wow a dude literally doing the absolute bare minimum, give this man an award
What's with all the deleted comments?
[Deleted]January 19, 2023
[Deleted]January 19, 2023
RighteousIndignationJanuary 19, 2023
But what about muslim men? pretty sure theres something in their religion about not exposing themselves to random women, just as the women shouldn't be showing flesh around men.
for years we have been told to respect others religion and culture now its all out the window for the TRAs
This applies to several religions, men are expected to remain in men only spaces if undressed.
I don’t think many preteen/teen boys would be comfortable getting changed in front of a woman in the men’s. They aren’t scared of course, but they can easily be embarrassed by changing bodies/spontaneous erections at these ages.
Boys or men who have autism or learning disabilities could easily be confused and distressed by the social rules suddenly changing on them.
The couple decent men I know who I have discussed this with have expressed concern at leaving toilets or changing rooms when there’s a young TIF then left alone with other men. They worry she’d be attacked, but equally what if these decent men hanging back to ensure she’s not is viewed as creepy from her pov. Which isn’t a fair position for anyone either. Do they go and if she gets raped they are left with the guilt. Or hang around to protect her and risk making her uncomfortable. Or say oi you are a woman and offend her. There’s no good option for a decent guy in this situation.
Sex segregation for toilets meets these problems also,
nassimJanuary 19, 2023
My dad is a Muslim man who is worldly, has lived in different countries, traveled extensively, etc. Yet he is still very modest by Western standards. I am certain he would be deeply uncomfortable having to share bathrooms with random women, and might decide not to go at all. When men get older sometimes they need to go more frequently so it's a cruel thing to put them in this position (not as cruel as what's being done to women, of course).
There are no ifs and buts about it, the woke do not care in the slightest about people from other cultures, or the poor of any culture. I've been saying this for years, but they only listen to others in their bubble. They talk about killing all TERFs in the same breath as portraying themselves as champions of immigrants, but I assure you that immigrants of any region of the world - not just muslim ones - are more than 99% "terfy" as well (the one percent represents the rich people in those countries who live on social media and emulate the western woke).
pennygadgetJanuary 19, 2023
for years we have been told to respect others religion and culture now its all out the window for the TRAs
ALL rules go out the window for TRAs because they have decided that folks who want to LARP as the opposite sex are the most oppressed people ever (and, therefore, they're allowed to break any rule they want if it makes them feel better)
I absolutely understand what you mean. Even as little girls and boys we are taught to use separate bathrooms and changing rooms in public. It’s privacy.
It’s like for intimate medical procedures - I’ve been asked “what if your doctor was a lesbian” and it’s like... 😐 what? It is far, far more comfortable in such cases to have someone with the same anatomy as you. I don’t care about the sexuality of my doctor/nurse, I care about the sex. I’m sure it’s the same for men when discussing prostates or testicles or other personal matters that only effect men.
Ditto bathrooms and changing rooms. These spaces are based around anatomy, not personal feelings.
Non creepy men have no desire to share their bathrooms and changing rooms with self hating women, or regular women. Only the creeps are advocating for this nonsense.
Edited to add: I would feel immensely guilty invading the men’s room and making men and boys uncomfortable in their own space. TIFs are selfish.
Has there been a single lesbian gynecologist who was accused of preying on her patients? Meanwhile, there have been many male gynecologists credibly accused.
I'm really sick of this argument. It's really lesbophobic.
ItzpapalotlJanuary 20, 2023
Same. It’s a disgusting attempt at a “gotcha” but makes no sense. Same when discussing changing rooms “what about lesbians?”. It’s just disgustingly homophobic and misogynistic- how are homosexual women less deserving of sex segregated areas? You can’t even tell someone is gay or straight or bi (unless the person is making out with their SO in public 🤔)
Statistically and physically Lesbians are no threat to other women, unlike men. They are also female and know what it’s like to be a female and are vulnerable in all the ways any woman is vulnerable (to rapey, predatory men). It’s just a hateful and ignorant “argument”
As a SSA woman (people just assume I’m straight because I’m very private, don’t date anyone and am fairly “feminine”) I certainly don’t ogle or objectify other women. They’re just women like me, with the same anatomy and the same experience with the male gaze and being a woman. Same for lesbians, same for straight women. Women don’t treat women the way creepy men treat women.
Agree, I’ve never once felt threatened or perved on by lesbians I know.
I do daily by men. And gay men as well as straight. In high school especially there seemed to be the same entitlement from gay boys to fawn over girls and grab our curves and make vaguely sexualised comments or call us bitches etc. obviously being gay they weren’t getting the same rise out of it, but they clearly enjoyed the same power over us straight boys did and had the same entitlement to our time and energy as the rest of the boys. The problem is always just men. It’s nothing to do with them being attracted to us- which seems the implication when lesbians are used as the comparator- it’s about their entitlement to us and power over us and objectification of us-whether that’s sexual objectification or otherwise.
FeminaJanuary 19, 2023
You're not the only bloke who feels like this! I have a male family member who had anxiety crisis while being taken care of by female nurses in a hospital once when they had to bathe him!
It must have felt humiliating for him! It is a bad enough situation to rely on another person for even basic things like taking a bath and relying on a person of the opposite sex is even more humiliating and embarassing for most people even when there is no fear factor!
JoinMeOnThePeakJanuary 19, 2023
I once went into the men's at a small weird European venue where I was due to speak to a room of about 100. There was a separate room with a door straight ahead and I went in There and did what I had to do. When I cracked the door I saw a reflection (backs to me and the mirror) of two dudes and one unoccupied urinal. Slammed the door and yelled 'fellas, sorry, came in here by mistake. I'm going to run past you with my eyes averted in a few seconds. I'm so sorry.' Stood up in front of the whole room 10 minutes later, but I didn't know who they were so it wasn't too bad. I violated their privacy and felt terrible about it, even tho it was a mistake and I didn't get any kind of eyeful. That's how normal people should feel in such circumstance: chagrined, embarrassed, sorry. Lady who walked in on the two little boys said it: everyone deserves to be treated with respect & it's awful to cause discomfort in others. People who like making others uncomfortable are wrong 'uns.
MadCowJanuary 19, 2023
There was a story on Reddit about a guy who was in a bathroom and heard someone else noisily using another stall and waited around to see who it was. It was a gender neutral bathroom and the other person was a woman. Someone commented that this is why they hate gender neutral bathrooms and got downvoted. 🙄
chocolatefondant21January 19, 2023
They send themselves to the slaughter by going into men’s spaces. They’re too delusional to see it though.
DoomedSibylJanuary 19, 2023
I’ve wondered about this too regarding men. I’ve honestly wondered how comfortable they would be if a couple of grandmother types came in and surprised them at the urinal.
No, there isn’t the problem of physical threat, and all adults know what human parts look like but we’re trained and socialized that bathroom activities are private. And single sex when they can’t be entirely private. Most people are on higher alert in public bathrooms because of this even when there’s no physical threat.
Isn’t it most people’s policy to get in, get out and not get any biologicals on yourself? While also doing that for any small children in your charge?
NoNameJanuary 19, 2023
I too have experienced this (as a woman). I live quite close to a woke college town and my friend lives there. We go out there when we go out. There is one restaurant/bar where the toilets have two entrances on either side of the restaurant into the same group of stalls and there are a two, maybe three urinals on one side. I came out of a stall and I saw one man looking like he was about to use the urinal and he looked and me with a shocked face. I don't think he realized these toilets were unisex. I washed my hands and didn't look up at him again because it was awkward but he went into a stall.
bluffJanuary 19, 2023
Why don't you post this on one of the billion male-centric sites and try to reach your fellow males instead of posting this on a woman's forum where you are not welcome and we already know all this?
MobymaybeJanuary 20, 2023
I reported him. Like everything in the world is for men, why come on a site for women? Its doesn’t matter if you agree with our stance.
bluffFebruary 4, 2023
Because men are gonna men and if they can't have something, they'll make sure women can't either. I've come back to this thread since it looks like the mods deleted most of the comments calling him out. 🙄
I suspect these types of posts will become more popular (men virtue signaling and taking up space here), considering how much engagement and asspats this one got. We're doomed.
I’m banned from them for defending women against TRAs
I don’t have male friends except one, who I’m very close to peaking. I recently peaked my boyfriend. He’s a biologist, so it took about a minute. So that’s something
I requested joining this site to the owners on Twitter who invited me knowing I was a man.
bluffFebruary 4, 2023
Yes I'm aware ovarit allows men on certain circles. You don't need to explain that to me.
Just because you're allowed to do something doesn't mean you should. Many women have expressed being uncomfortable with your presence here and you don't care.
And oh really, you're banned from all other websites because you defend women against TRAs? Frankly I don't believe you and if it's true you should just make another account instead of bothering women.
SaltnCJanuary 19, 2023
Thank you for your post- it’s not a point of view I’d considered as much but ofc makes total sense. Solidarity.
ProxyMusicJanuary 19, 2023
Another point to keep in mind here is that men all start using male restrooms and changing rooms as little boys who previously used the women's facilities with their mums or female carers. It will make it much harder for boys of 6, 7, 8 to understand and accept that it's not appropriate for them to use the ladies' any more because girls and women are uncomfortable having "big boys" and men around when they are using the toilet and undressing if when boys go into the men's facilities they find women in there.
[Deleted]January 19, 2023
Yeah, I don't think someone has to be an unquestionable straight up threat to your physical wellbeing for you to be allowed to set up your boundaries. I mean, if there is an option to go to your own sex's bathroom, why would you not? That goes to women too - why would you deliberately go out of your way to get in men's bathroom without a solid reason (emergency). Makes sense to me why dudes would be creeped out by that woman.
AmareldysJanuary 19, 2023
I think when it comes to guys it may be more about fear of BEING a creep. You don't want to be that gross dude who exposes himself to women.
jadegreenJanuary 19, 2023
A gay bar near my old home had a setup that seemed to work ok - there were three stalls with real doors&locks (no gaps) and then a big stall that didn't lock but had a set of urinals out of view of the swinging door. I actually sort of liked the setup so I didn't have to separate from my friends - we could just queue together - but it really was a setup that was more akin to three single toilet rooms just with a common sink.
When a woman goes into this type of toilet set up and finds a predator on his own it’s then very easy for him to push her behind a locked door where no one can help her. This is much less safe for women and girls. In regular single sex toilets a man going in could be seen and stopped by men from the outside the toilet block, in the set up you describe this wouldn’t happen. If a woman walks into women’s toilets and sees a man waiting for her there it’s automatic to walk back out, the set up you described is for both sexes so many women would feel they should swallow their gut instinct and use them anyways, so will be at risk of these men. And in regular single sex toilets the doors are not floor to ceiling, so if a man attacks a woman in there then there’s a fair chance another woman will come in and then go get help because she will see or hear what is happening, and then others she gets to come help will be able to get to the rapist by climbing over from another stall. The set up you describe would leave a woman locked behind a flood to ceiling door, maybe no one would hear or see what’s happening and no one would be able to get in to help. Much much less safe.
jadegreenJanuary 20, 2023
Those dangers are all inherent with any single stall toilet, the 'mens' and 'womens' are next to each other in a dusty corner of a gas station. A crowded gay bar is a safer environment to have the setup than most.
SecondSkinJanuary 20, 2023
Nah, there’s no safer place to have this set up. And I explained the increased risk of this compared to regular single sex set up.
I honestly agree. While men are not going to be physically threatened by women entering their bathrooms, it’s not fair to cause people anxiety, especially in the case of minors who might be in the bathroom.
MamaGeeJanuary 19, 2023
Don't blame you in the least for feeling that way. How embarrassing. I think I would step outside (if I were you) and find a dark alley, or step outside and use one of those girl camping devices (me, if TIF) in a dark alley!
A group bathroom or locker room that everyone can use. What a stupid concept.
Thanks for posting in support!
I think men should absolutely feel okay in stating they don't want women in their bathrooms or changing rooms. I mean, don't use that argument for boardrooms or golf, but sex-based differences can be respected in sex-specific spaces where our bodies are on display or vulnerable.
It's also noteworthy that you didn't get to give consent. Social rules around the world assume men and women have separate restrooms...so these women are breaking that code and you didn't get a say and you didn't get to consent. Granted a gender neutral toilet is advertising correctly that men and women will be there, but if they didn't give you a male only choice, it's discriminatory, IMO.
worried19January 20, 2023
I've been in and out of the men's room since I was a kid, so your post gave me something to think about. I don't feel comfortable in public restrooms in general, and I tend to go where I think I won't draw attention. I've had so many bad experiences in women's restrooms, but I realize that doesn't entitle me to be in male spaces.
mgcullinanJanuary 22, 2023
One time when taking my wife to a clinic, I ducked into the men’s restroom for a quick pee. While doing my business a woman janitor started to come in. As soon as I saw her I let out a yell and she quickly backed out. She could not have seen anything because there were dividers between the urinals. Still, I didn’t want her in there with me.
She didn’t mean it. I think she was cleaning the men’s bathroom and went to the closet to grab a few supplies for restocking. In the meantime I went in there. I never felt threatened for even 1 nanosecond. It was just a momentary privacy violation, so no big deal. But it helps make clear how threatening and abusive it is for the other sex, who have considerable safety concerns as well as privacy.
I agree. Both men and women deserve the right to single sex spaces, not just women. I do think it's more of an issue for women because of perverts but I'm sure women being in bathrooms and changerooms with men makes some men uncomfortable as well. I'm not sure how most men would feel about TIF's being in men's bathrooms though. From what I've seen TIF's tend to pass better than transwomen.
[Deleted]January 20, 2023
[Deleted]January 19, 2023
PollyEstherJanuary 19, 2023
What bathrooms are TIFs supposed to use? They can't use the women's because they will scare women by posing as actual men.
They use the women's, but ideally are prepared to answer questions or offer assurances if their appearance seems to be making women uncomfortable. The voice gives it away!
JuniperiusJanuary 20, 2023
That voice is unmistakable! I listened to a podcast the other day where a scientist was being interviewed about coral. 200% nothing to do with trans issues. From the very first word I noticed it was a TIF, but it wasn't mentioned until about 55 minutes in.
[Deleted]January 20, 2023
Exactly! And it's not even the depth, I can't put my finger on it but maybe it's the tone? Even a deep female voice has less monotony in it and I can instinctively call it more "calming" for reasons I can't verbalize.
Voice and the way they walk. They way women’s pelvis are tilted means our gait is a dead give away they minute we move.
Besides, TIFs being female will have experienced female socialisation, so will respond like women if questioned why they are in the women’s facilities🤷🏼♀️
girl_pashJanuary 19, 2023
I'm nervous about some men trying to gaslight women into believing they're really TIFs at this point :( And yeah I don't care if TIFs wanna risk themselves and use the men's room but honestly some TIFs pass really well. I don't know how comfortable I would be with someone who looked like Buck Angel washing her hands next to me. I don't think I would know what to do/say and I can't count on the delusional trans person to explain to every uncomfortable woman what's going on with them every time they use the restroom. Ugh.
JuniperiusJanuary 20, 2023
There might be, like, a few hundred dudes in the whole world who could pass for TIFs if you're paying attention. They'd have to be very unusual men.
SecondSkinJanuary 20, 2023
Have you seen Buck Angel walk in real life? You’d tell straight away.
Have you read the Cass review? The TIFs you don’t care about using the males- who will almost certainly be sexually assaulted at some point if they do this- are made up of the country’s most vulnerable girls -35% have autism, many, many are lesbians victim of homophobia, or victims of male violence or girls in care. The TIFs you don’t care about walking to their own rapes are the most vulnerable groups of girls in the world. They need protection not condemnation. They are in no way less worthy of good safeguarding than any other group of girls. Sacrificing these vulnerable groups isn’t ok.
girl_pashJanuary 20, 2023
No, I have not met her. But I'm not so sure I'm confident in my ability to always clock a TIP. So why should I assume that someone who passes super well as a man is really a trans female and not some other male trying to take advantage? And those vulnerable trans females are making their own decisions, what am I supposed to do about it? I'm sorry but I don't like the thought of a bearded buff testosterone filed TIF scaring the crap out of my grandma if she happens to use the same restroom in public. Not all women are aware of this trans issue so their first thought isn't going to be, oh it must be a mentally ill/confused young woman, she's harmless. I know there are plenty of victims in this gender war but my empathy for them is running out when I see them on the front lines of these antifa-like protests directly against women's rights.
And no, I have not heard of the Cass review. Is it specifically about how autism overlaps with identifying as trans?
SecondSkinJanuary 20, 2023
It’s specific about how children with autism are massively over represented in % of girls referred to gids. 35 times more than the average population % of girls. Autism charities were targeted early by TRAs and as puberty and social expectations are both so much harder for these girls they are much more likely to be targets of trans cult grooming.
If you’d seen plenty TIFs in real life you would realise that your grandma would clock them straight away by how they move. Our tilted pelvis gives us away every time. There’s research on how our brains have been wired by evolution to clock the sex of a person even in the dark, and it’s their movement that makes our spidey senses click on. Women clock this much quicker than men in these studies (replicated plenty) and all age groups of women, including babies. If you’ve only known TIFs in pictures or edited videos it’s easy to think they pass, but in real life they don’t and I’d think your grandma would be very savvy to that -it’s a benefit to being an older woman.
[Deleted]January 19, 2023
Yeah, can’t say I have any sympathy for TIFs pushing their way into the men’s at their own risk, but I don’t want the testosterone-fuelled ones in the women’s loos either, even though it’s the correct toilet for them.
Most TIP school children are TIFs. There has been a 5337% increase in girls referred to gids between 2009/2010 and 2017/2018. 35% of whom have autism, most are lesbians, or victims of male violence and traumatised or in care. These are the worlds most vulnerable groups of girls, they are children. They are not deserving of lesser safeguarding because they are victims of a cult grooming and medical abuse.
[Deleted]January 20, 2023
It’s the adults I’m referring to, as in the comment I was replying to.
SecondSkinJanuary 20, 2023
The 18/19/20 year olds who were transed as girls will be just as vulnerable and just as much victimised though. Barely adult versions of the kids in the Cass review, just as much victims of culty groomy brainwashing from TRAs on social media or TRA teachers or medical abusers. There’s not a neat tidy line between girls who are vulnerable victims of gender ideologues and adult TIFs who are not victims, who we shouldn’t care about what happens if they use the men’s. I get some adult TIFs behaviour is awful and I loath those dripping with aggression and entitlement also. But it’s just not that clear cut, there’s many legal adults who are still very much children in any real way- in terms of assessing consequences of decisions and being vulnerable to predators grooming them, and so on. They are still very much part of the very vulnerable groups the Cass review refers to. I know a lot of TIFs, school aged and just above, all have autism (as do my own girls, which is how I know these families who have TIFs) and several have borderline IQs, some have been actual victims of men, all have been victims of the local schools lgbtq+ groups and trans cult teachers, many are likely ssa but have jumped on trans as the answer, the escape. Some threaten suicide and are obnoxious and manipulative and I don’t like who they’ve become, but they are still very much vulnerable children who belong to the at risk groups Dr Cass identifies. Being just legal adults doesn’t change that they are trans because they are part of these groups, desperately in need of safeguards.
I think if men and boys don't want TIFs who would scare girls and women in with them, then TIFs need to campaign for an additional space. That's what women did originally, and it's what people with disabilities had to do too.
Trans people are the only group I've ever seen to have created a huge amount of social problems for themselves and others by assuming they can ride roughshod over longstanding customs and norms and violate other people's boundaries by barging into spaces they don't belong in without bothering to ask if this is okay with the rest of the world first. Now that they are finding out, belatedly, that the world isn't going to give up sex segregation to suit TIPs and their pushy ways, it's high time they stopped with all the pronoun BS and strarted coming up with and campaigning for practical solutions and accommodations to suit them - without demanding that everyone else on earth forfeit our rights to privacy, dgignity, safety and comfort.
SecondSkinJanuary 20, 2023
Not true.
They are women so they are entitled to use the women’s facilities. 99.9% of TIFs don’t pass at all and it’s obvious they are female, so don’t scare women.
The rare tiny % who do pass are still entitled to use the women’s bathrooms. Victims of medical abuse are not excluded from the single sex facilities they are legally entitled to because they’ve been victims.
There was a really good Substack post written by a woman who accidentally walked into the men's and startled a pair of young boys who were at the urinals. She got out immediately but she talked about being eaten up with guilt about how she made them feel, and concluded that it's only a fucking sociopath that would conclude that their needs come before the comfort of the people (and children) who use those spaces.
Men deserve dignity as well.
My bf told me about one time he accidentally walked into a Girls'/Women's room last year, and was torn between dashing back out with that humiliated adrenaline rush thing coursing through his veins (like the Woman in the substack)—and forcing himself to loiter, because inside he'd found only an adult male, Pritzker-class size and weight AGP and a Girl who was a physically median 10-11 year old. 😧😧
He chose "loiter" and spent the most excruciating couple minutes of his life... well, loitering, until it became wordlessly clear to dudebro that he had installed himself as sentry and was more than steeled for a waiting game. Dudebro left and my bf went and stood guard outside the restroom door until the Girl had finished doing Girl thangz and came back out.
She turned around, made brief eye contact and mouthed the words "Thank you, thank you" as She walked off. Bf finished that part of the story with actual tears welling in the corners of his eyes 😭
I hope that TIM assumed your boyfriend saw him go in and followed to intimidate him out. That thought, that maybe he'll think twice next time (only because he fears other men of course), really warms my heart.
Yah, for sure.
Unfortunately, there's no real way to know how long the big blob of slob had already been in there when mah boy first mistakenly popped in.
Mental isn't it that with these public gender-neutral bathrooms will evolve to girls and women having to coordinate with a guardian/bodyguard to do something they use to do independently.
Goddess bless your bf for being one of the good ones
That’s part of the point of it though.
If women aren’t safe without a ‘decent’ man, then we are dependent on doing whatever these men want to keep their ‘protection’. They may be less violent than other men, but it will still cost us. Normally in sex and servitude and by biting our tongue.
God that's another fantastic point I hadn't thought of. Gender neutral spaces will only further enforce women and girls depending more on men and boys in their lives that they place trust in to protect them from other men and boys.
One thing I have learned from abuse is that trust in your abuser is...part of the abuse. It's what makes it so hard. There can be genuinely good moments and times in which you trust them with certain things. Then that trust gets broken or used against the abused person during a mood state or in some context. And abusers are generally trusted in most when it comes to "protecting" the person they're abusing from threats they consider to be worse than them.
And even if we take abusers out of the equation, a hallmark of women and girls' oppression is dependence on men and lack of independence that comes from that.
Yes, it is all a power game.
Access to single-sex spaces is not about just wanting to "exercise" or "pee" or whatever bullshit excuse they makeup - it is about making women submit. See this bit of freedom you have? It's mine now bitch.
We are reduced to having to appeal to other men for guardianship and safety.
Depends on how fast the coming backlash picks up speed though.
Did ya see this from last week? https://youtu.be/r05dvH-ASHU
Well worth the five minutes... I haven't seen anything else CLOSE to this level of near-mutiny at the tired tactic of just shutting down board meetings that get heated and running for the hills.
😍😍 It's Coming
Just waiting to see MENE MENE TEKEL UPHARSIN pop up on the wall ahahaahah
It’s like they’re trying to eventually get to women needing (and then requiring) male chaperones everywhere they go, like in the Middle East.
Thank you for sharing this story.
Of course.
I was impressed at his quick-draw decision to take control of the situation by ***de-***escalating it, both by maintaining calm patience, and by parking himself in the corner where his own presence would be as unthreatening as possible under the circumstances—especially given the nerve rush he described.
Mah boy isn't shy about pointing out boundaries, by explicitly saying little more than a string of very polite formal addresses—which I think is just him being him (*awfentic sewf??*🤩) but could well be deliberately formulated so that nobody can credibly smear anything he says in such circumstances as an explicit threat: "Sir. Excuse me. Sorry sir, I believe you may have missed this sign.—and he isn't afraid to step to a dude like that once the situation is one-on-one.
Complete de-escalation, in other words, is a conscious departure from his normal reactive instincts, so, he must have just intuitively read the whole situation as already unbearably tense for the Girl and known it would be a mistake to jack up the tension in any way, even if that kind of faceoff would chase Big Slobby out of there incrementally faster.
Very very cool.😍
Then again, there've been a couple times when he's sorta just drained all the static energy from some random room, turning it on the fly into an almost soundproof darkroom, as a place to just rest up and heal for a bit (once for me when I got really sick, once for a foster dog who was flipping his little shit from, most likely, accidental exposure to old abuse triggers) so, on second thought maybe it was just that set of instincts kicking in again.
hope you upgraded him from Boyfriend to Nigel, I love this story
I believe the basis of women’s fear at the sight of men in a female-only space has little to with seeing unwanted male features. It’s being in the presence of someone breaking an important social norm that has implications to our safety.
It’s like waking up to a strange cat at the foot of your bed and being afraid of it even though normally you like cats. Just the fact that this cat has invaded your house and planted itself in your bed is going to make you think something is terribly wrong.
Yeah but it's worse than that. The men who are gleefully invading Female spaces are the entirely self-selected vanguard—in other words, exactly those men who most want to breach Women's boundaries, with the least qualms holding them back.
Whereas a cat who randomly wanders into a house will still ultimately /1/ be random, and /2/ have just meandered in by some desultory, non-goal-oriented route.
And i frankly do not give the first, middle or last fuck what the stats say, —corrupted or no—because that bunch is going to have FAR greater concentrated malicious intent than any statsmongering could ever turn up in figures.
I'm sorry I know this is so off topic, just the whole desultory, non goal-oriented thing made me think of this time when I was a kid and my mother and I went on a 1.5 hour car trip running errands. Her cat climbed out of the hatchback trunk when we got home, in there the whole time. If it was a man it would have been a different story lmao
Uh, yeah😬😬😬 i'm being lazy about visualizing that at the moment, so for now i'll give it a temporary placeholder rating of exactly 1 yike.
FYI Separate capsule trunks (as opposed to the rear of a hatchback, which is continuous with the main interior) should have an emergency pull tab on the inside in any car of model year N or newer, where N is somewhere in the range 2004-2007 (exactly one of those, i just can't remember which one).
Typically these are fluorescent yellow or orange, and shaped like an upside-down 'T' with slight concave curves to keep fingers from slipping. At the base of the 'T' (physically the top of the upside-down letter) is attached a string that will release the trunk catch and 'pop' the trunk when pulled.
So, unless you drive a 20+ year old vehicle, hypothetical boyo could get himself outa there by his own motive power.
I just want to chime in with an unrelated comment and say that I absolutely love how often this site turns to using cats in their examples.
well, given our contingent of lovely Lesbians who are all about the 🐈⬛ the jokes all write themselves, do they not?
Plus with no other random men in there to act as checks. It's a "male-chaperone-free" space for those bad men.
Ooh, the mythical “protector”.
Men need to be afraid of US. Buy pepper spray
My fear is being attacked by someone who could really harm me. It's also not wanting to see dicks when I'm out shopping or living my life
I had nearly this experience except not waking up to the strange cat but just finding one sleeping on the end of my bed when I came into the room during the day. I was indeed creeped out because how could the cat have gotten in? Turns out someone had left a window open from trying to break in an steal shit which was in face very unsettling and creepy. Very apt comparison.
If a random cat came in all that’s wrong is that it was free to roam or a stray, both of which endanger the cat, not the owner of the house. A man using women’s toilets by intent, not accident, is a knowing, malicious act, aimed at harming women.
Difference is for me: man is not allowed to stay in my bathroom. Cat is 100% welcome to keep sleeping on my bed. Lol.
If I didn’t have my own cats, who would strenuously object, I’d feel the same!
God this is another great point. I love this thread.
This happened to me too. I accidentally ran into a mens room one day in grad school. When I got out of the stall, a dude walked in and looked like a deer in the headlights. He just walked slowly and awkwardly.
Only pervs and flying monkeys (see: narcissism) want gender neutral restrooms.
They're also useful for GNC people. I think the ideal would be female-only, male-only, and then gender neutral. I'd take advantage of a third space.
I had a similar experience just last year, only the opposite. I work with the public and will often have to use the public women’s bathroom during my shift. One day during my lunch break I walked in to find a man standing there washing his hands at the sink. No one else was in the bathroom, just me and him. I did my business and gave him the nastiest glare I possibly could before leaving. He flinched a little after noticing it.
A big part of me wanted to shout “what the hell are you doing in here?! This is the women’s bathroom, get out!” But decided against it because I was at work and I didn’t want to be reprimanded with “potential assault” to a customer. If I had been off the clock there simply shopping, I absolutely would have.
Separate spaces for men and women are extremely important, especially when it comes to bathrooms. Taking these away by combining them is a horrible idea and will only result in stories like the ones posted here.
No one, man, woman or child should have to experience this while in a private setting.
The one time I encountered a man in a public loo he was very old and had made a mistake - those loos had terrible signage, I’d used them for years and still had to double check - and he was extremely embarrassed and apologetic.
Yeah if it was an accident, I would've approached the situation differently. But, it became clear to me pretty fast the man knew what he was doing. He was anywhere from 25-35, pretty young and in my age group. Personally, I don't really think it was an accident. The signage at my job for the bathrooms is pretty clear.
It certainly doesn’t sound like an accident. He’d have apologised if it had been.
just checking—did you mean to cite his age three times with three different wordings?
Lol as opposed to, e.g., maybe the second item is meant as "-looking" and the third some slightly more specific shared class/group?
😅 srry if awkward q... these types of little things in written text are like fun easter eggs for me ahah
Do you mean this one I posted some time ago from the blog The Happy Talent (not on Substack)? There could be others though...anyone who hasn't read this one yet should!
https://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/i-accidentally-used-the-mens-room-at-disney-im-now-convinced-anyone-who-would-do-this-on-purpose-is-a-sociopath
That's the one, thanks!
I was at an overnight event where the bathroom/shower area turned out to be unisex. There was no advance warning of this, and once there I could not leave easily. I went to the restroom in the middle of the night, thinking the coast was clear. A teenaged boy was there. It was dismaying that young people could not count on privacy.
You know I never thought about it framed in that way. It's just an additional nuance to this whole thing. I feel uncomfortable when I'm even in situations where (for example) female toddlers are being changed in front of me, even though it's been a totally natural thing and in an appropriate context any time it's happened. Because I am an adult, and I do not have a close familial relationship with that child in which they depend on me and trust me to help them with those sorts of needs. So as a bystander, it feels like a violation to them just sharing that space with them while they're getting that help by a parent or other family member.
But it's extra different when it's a little boy, because with members of your same sex there's at least a shared sense of experience when it comes to having the same anatomy there. Like that's their world, I don't understand what it's like to have male anatomy and there's a sense of privacy and vulnerability that feels threatened when a member of the other sex intrudes on that even accidentally. Also when we as women do commit violence, it is generally child crimes. Children of either sex are a vulnerable group to us adults and I'm mindful of that.