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A recent study attempts to quantify the extent of trans discrimination when it comes to romantic and sexual relationships.
There is NO SUCH THING as "relationship discrimination". Nobody owes anyone else a date or a fuck. I don't care if their reasoning is "trans people are gross" or "brunettes are ugly". Romance is the one area where a person can (and should) be as discriminatory as they want!!
Romantic relationships are one of the most important sources of social support for adults. The fact that most cis people would not consider trans people as potential dating partners is yet another serious risk factor for increased psychological and physical health problems among the trans population.
Maybe the gender-specials should think about that before they decide to wear silly looking drag 24/7 and/or destroy their bodies with hormones and surgeries. Also...nobody is stopping trans people from dating each other. Why are they insistent on a "cis" partner?
Surprisingly, among the 127 participants open to dating a trans person, almost half selected a trans person of a gender incongruent with their stated sexual orientation. For example, 50% of the trans-inclusive straight women and 28% of the trans-inclusive gay men were willing to date a trans woman, even though one wouldn’t expect either straight women or gay men to be attracted to women.
Its because trans-women are MEN, Genius!
It is also possible that at least some of the trans exclusion is due to the fact that for some people, sexual orientation might be not (just) about a partner’s gender identity, but attraction to specific body types and/or judgment of reproductive capabilities.
How DARE those filthy cis bigots choose partners who can give them children that they want!? Don't they know that they can just spend thousands of dollars on reproductive technology and exploiting surrogates instead!?
so more research is needed to understand the extent of this form of trans exclusion and the reasons driving it.
LOL its not rocket science. Most people don't want to date someone who is so mentally ill & fragile that they need to be coddled in a gender fantasy 24/7. Not to mention the uncomfortable sexual issues that go along with dating someone who transitioned medically and got the "bottom surgery". I'd rather die alone than be some gender-special's emotional support animal!
SaintHedwigMay 23, 2022
How DARE those filthy cis bigots choose partners who can give them children that they want!? Don't they know that they can just spend thousands of dollars on reproductive technology and exploiting surrogates instead!?
I'm straight and dated a straight dude for a month. I wanted at least the option of having kids in the future; he had two past kids, a vasectomy, and was done with more kids. We broke up because there is no compromise when it comes to having/not having kids like that.
And so many TRAs try to sweep that under the rug like the biggest non-deal ever. It's baffling.
pennygadgetMay 23, 2022
And so many TRAs try to sweep that under the rug like the biggest non-deal ever. It's baffling.
It really is. They claim it doesn't matter because adoption and reproductive technology exists. But why go through that when it's more sensible to just choose a partner who can make kids with you the old fashioned way?
There is NO SUCH THING as "relationship discrimination". Nobody owes anyone else a date or a fuck. I don't care if their reasoning is "trans people are gross" or "brunettes are ugly". Romance is the one area where a person can (and should) be as discriminatory as they want!!
This, except I'd go 2 steps further.
1/
Nobody needs to justify their choices here, either.
i.e., this goes beyond just saying I don't care whether their reasoning is X or Y thing—because even that phrasing could be twisted into saying that they have to give reasons for rejecting someone's advances/interest.
Which they don't... and absolutely shouldn't (Women should take every opportunity to practice making ourselves less 'answerable' to complete strangers).
and 2/
To speak of 'reasoning' at all here is to fundamentally miscast the whole scenario.
Non-interest is the DEFAULT situation here. It's what obtains automatically, when there's no 'reason' for things to turn out differently.
The entire idea of 'reasoning' here is specious.
The easiest way for me to explain is by analogy: I regularly walk a route along which there are 11 takeout food places. What I'm saying is,
• On days when I don't get any takeout (= MOST days), I don't have any actual 'reasons not to get takeout'. That's just the normal outcome.
• And even when I DO decide to hit up one of these places for some food, I still don't need to—and won't—have 'reasons' to 'reject' the other 10 places. I'm not even really rejecting them, so much as they just don't exist to me one way or the other for that day.
pennygadgetMay 23, 2022
Nobody needs to justify their choices here, either.
I get what you mean. "No" should be a complete sentence. But a person should also be free to state a preference without being attacked for it
I agree, of course, but I think that "no as a complete sentence" is an objectively better choice than stating a preference (except in the company of trusted friends).
If the answer is just "No[, thank you]", then that avoids any potential situation where somebody will get embittered if your preferences evolve, and/or if you make exceptions to them, and/or if it turns out later that you misidentified the actual thing you want or don't want (which is pretty easy to do TBH, given that all this stuff is so far below conscious).
And even if none of those things ever happens, it's still not a great look to 'justify' choices/actions unnecessarily, because the more someone does that, the more she/he gets locked into a pattern of doing that—which others will eventually come to expect or demand (especially from Women), and most importantly because practicing a habit ingrains it more deeply.
real_feministMay 23, 2022
I cringe whenever I see people use the word 'discrimination' in the context of dating/sex. It's so rapey.
OneOddBirdMay 23, 2022
It reminds me of the incel concept of height discrimination (where they whine and complain women won’t date them because of their height and use it as a means to justify violence). I think some of these TRAs don’t hear what’s coming out of their own mouths or they were once closet incels
First of all, big congrats to the 99% of straight woman who are certified TERFs lol
The high rates of trans exclusion from potential dating pools are undoubtedly due in part to cisnormativity, cissexism, and transphobia… It is also possible that at least some of the trans exclusion is due to the fact that for some people, sexual orientation might be not (just) about a partner’s gender identity, but attraction to specific body types and/or judgment of reproductive capabilities.
DING DING DING.
It is not about some irrational hatred of transgender people but sexual attraction is about someone’s sex. It’s literally in the name. Also who would have possibly thought reproduction could be important in sex eh?
(I like how biological sex is defined as just a ‘body type’, like curvy/thin, now too lol)
Sexual attraction also explains why the apparently ‘unexpected finding’ is totally unsurprising:
an interesting pattern of discrimination against trans women in particular emerged among those who would be expected to be attracted to women: 28% of trans-inclusive bisexual/queer/nonbinary folks and 38% of trans-inclusive lesbians said they wouldn’t date a trans woman — only a trans man.
Yes, lesbians are attracted to biological women. Shock horror.
Lilith-FairMay 23, 2022
There is nothing wrong with being normal.
All these crazy terms . . . "Cisnormativity", "cissexism", they're unhinged. They're theorizing in some off-tangent realm and framing something normal and fundamental as if a normal human behavior (sexual attraction) is a behavior that needs correction. It's insane,
I'll repeat again: there is nothing wrong with being normal.
[Deleted]May 23, 2022
Definitely! It all started with the stupid word ‘cis’ which simply meant ‘lack of a mental disorder’ ??
I think the ‘normativity’ language is one massive cope for simply being loser outcasts: don’t worry you’re not the weird ones, the 99% are instead!!
OranginaMay 23, 2022
It is not about some irrational hatred of transgender people but sexual attraction is about someone’s sex. It’s literally in the name. Also who would have possibly thought reproduction could be important in sex eh?
You know what, though? The more they try to eradicate this particularly boundary, the more I actually hate them.
[Deleted]May 23, 2022
Yeh fair, I would say I hate TRAs and the ideology more than trans people themselves, especially the younger trans who I see more as victims
sicktodeathMay 23, 2022
I’m bisexual but I wouldn’t date a TIM or a TIF. Instant turn off.
Same. Major turn offs:
- Drug addiction
- Desire for cosmetic surgery
- Wanting me to lie
TIPs check all those boxes.
pennygadgetMay 23, 2022
Bisexual means being attracted to men or women. Not being attracted to some horrific, medically induced mix of both (ie a man with fake boobs or a woman with a flesh tube sewn to her crotch)
Attraction specifically to medically transitioning trans people (as opposed to regardless of it in certain cases), isnt part of sexual orientation, it's a paraphilia or fetish--attraction to medical experiments, lifemong medical patients, to manmade unnatural alterations that are virtually to wholly impossible in nature and false (eg implants aren't breasts, they're hunks of silicon, not even endocrine disorders give those levels of cross sex hormones). Indeed those changes, when possible naturally, are a disease state, not a healthy one. It's actually rather disturbing. (Also relates to my breasts comment in that fetish thread recently eg the "chick w a dick" phenomenon of male porn fantasy is rooted in phallocentricism, defining sex in terms of the penis, clit/vulva erasure from childhood onwards, denial and erasure of clit vulva-centric sex, female genitals seen as vagina & vagina as hole, as lack...)
[Deleted]May 23, 2022
Exactly. Why would I want someone with unchecked (in fact, encouraged) serious mental issues and a mish mash of confusing sexual characteristics??
[Deleted]May 23, 2022
Which is why it’s pretty sus that they categorised bisexuals with the queer and NB folk?
[Deleted]May 23, 2022
Lesbians are 3x more pressurised (30%) into dating a man than gay men are pressurised into dating a woman (10%).
Wonder why that would be!!
butchpleaseMay 23, 2022
Love how lesbians were the most likely to date a trans person but we are also the demographic that is deemed the most evil by trans people
orchideaMay 23, 2022
Surprisingly, among the 127 participants open to dating a trans person, almost half selected a trans person of a gender incongruent with their stated sexual orientation. For example, 50% of the trans-inclusive straight women and 28% of the trans-inclusive gay men were willing to date a trans woman, even though one wouldn’t expect either straight women or gay men to be attracted to women.
So surprising. So very, very surprising. Almost as if- and I'm just stabbing in the dark here, folxx - people's attractions are dictated by their sexual orientation and not your magical, made up identity or your questionable fashion choices... [Head explodes]
AmareldysMay 23, 2022
I love this paragraph so much, every time I read the word "surprisingly" I laugh hysterically
"Surprisingly, among the 127 participants open to dating a trans person, almost half selected a trans person of a gender incongruent with their stated sexual orientation. For example, 50% of the trans-inclusive straight women and 28% of the trans-inclusive gay men were willing to date a trans woman, even though one wouldn’t expect either straight women or gay men to be attracted to women. Similarly, 50% of trans-inclusive straight men and 69% of trans-inclusive lesbians said they’d date a trans man, even though both groups are presumably only attracted to women. And 33% of the trans-inclusive bisexual/queer participants said they would only date a trans person of one gender but not the other, even though one may expect this group to be attracted to multiple genders."
LadylucyMay 23, 2022
Not wanting to date someone is not transphobic or discrimination. I’m heterosexual, and I like men who look like men. In other words, if a TIM has intact genitalia, I’m not attracted to their play acting as women. It’s creepy to me. I don’t hate TIMs (well, maybe sometimes), but they are unattractive to me. If I prefer blonde men, that doesn’t mean I hate men with brown or black hair. Maybe TIPs should work on their narcissistic tendencies.
OranginaMay 23, 2022
Not to mention, there's a certain element of wanting a man who can carry his weight and sometimes yours, too. Even if I were attracted to a particular TIM, why would I date them -- they're needy, expensive, and make everyone uncomfortable. I need someone to be able to share the load.
Of the seven participants who themselves identified as transgender or nonbinary, 89% were willing to date another trans person.
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
6 out of 7 = 85.7%
7 out of 7 = 100%
So they're reporting fractional persons now? Are we now counting each of N separate personalities in someone with DID/multiple-personality disorder as 1/N of a person?
Using the 'traditional' method of counting exactly one person per person, you need at least 9 people to get a percentage that rounds to 89% (8 out of 9 = 88.9%)
ETA: also i'm not sure how to reconcile the presence of these 7 non-"cis" people in a study that's first described as comprising "1000 cisgender folks" •__________•
[Deleted]May 23, 2022
Using the 'traditional' method of counting exactly one person per person...
lol. so TERFy
MonstrousRegimentMay 23, 2022
Rational analysis is terfy
...Sometimes.
TRAs are all too eager to perform 'rational' analysis where it's completely inappropriate, and where subjectivity and individual preferences DO rule the day (i'm thinking mostly of sexual orientation and attraction here).
In those areas, naturally, it's the correct—absolutely NOT rational—analysis that's the TERFy thing to do.
OranginaMay 23, 2022
well, you know how it is. Some days I feel transgender, some days I feel enby, yesterday I was hardly genderfluid at all.
QueenofdogsMay 23, 2022
I mean I wouldn't say the vast majority of people are radical feminists (unfortunately)
Funnily enough my super woke friend only dates guys and is now dating a trans woman. Even the wokesters don't really see trans people as their claimed gender
Out of curiosity—Super woke Female friend or super woke male friend?
QueenofdogsMay 23, 2022
Female 'non binary'
Thanks.
Srry for playing 20 Questions here, but, when you say she only dates guys, is that your empirical observation? Or has she actually declared at some point "I only date guys" or equivalent?
Knowing the soft taboos of the super-woke, I'm comfortable guessing that she hasn't actually declared any such thing explicitly—but I don't know all that many über-wokesters myself and don't wana assume anything.
This is always why I’ve been v concerned for young people trying to trans
Relationships can bring people the greatest joy in their lives and TRA are destroying kids’ hopes of it, as dating is hard enough as it is without presenting people with some mish mash man/woman eunuch combo mutilated mix!
LadylucyMay 23, 2022
And according to trans surgeon, Marci Bowers, the kids she has treated who took blockers and then hormones have never had an orgasm and never will. It’s unconscionable that doctors would do that to anyone. The kids will have a hard time forming intimate relationships. God, I hope that someday soon all of the affirming doctors and therapists are sued and lose their licenses.
OranginaMay 23, 2022
You know, I worry about what their answer to this is going to be. Because Bowers doesn't say let's stop the blockers. He says that there has to be a solution. What do you think that is? My guess is teaching tweens to masturbate as part of their "journey."
vulvapeopleMay 23, 2022
He wants to "pause" blockers (so kids can have a little puberty), which seems illuminating to me, as if blockers are inevitable and puberty isn't. I'm guessing he knows that blockers play a big role in children choosing to go all the way, so dropping them entirely is unacceptable.
SpicymeatballMay 23, 2022
It is also possible that at least some of the trans exclusion is due to the fact that for some people, sexual orientation might be not (just) about a partner’s gender identity, but attraction to specific body types and/or judgment of reproductive capabilities.
Congrats to the researchers who have discovered the existence of sexual attraction.
Radical_PhoenixMay 23, 2022
Who would have thought people would know that they have to have sex with someone of the opposite sex in order to have a baby. Twansfobia!!!!
[Deleted]May 23, 2022
If I had to choose between dating a trans woman and sawing off my leg, just call me a pirate because fuck that.
alpinepunchMay 23, 2022
Why then is it that trans people can mobilize and take down studies that don't directly support their agenda and ruin the careers of academics who try seriously discussing the issue? Why does this majority of people not push back against them and why do they have such institutional power?
People are afraid to speak out when the illusion of absolute consensus is maintained by large institutions. Same way authoritarians keep power.
It's beyond awful.
yikesforeverMay 23, 2022
Okay but now do trans people. How many trans people will date a trans person? How many of them prefer a muggle? :P
pennygadgetMay 23, 2022
Okay but now do trans people. How many trans people will date a trans person? How many of them prefer a muggle? :P
I'm waiting on the study for how many would date a Hufflepuff over a Slytherin.
89% said they would date another trans person
That was only 7 people tho... I mean a whole study, lol.
Edit: also, I think rather than just asking "would you?" it'd be more precise to ask if they have, cause anyone can give the pro trans answer on paper, but it's different when it comes to actually being in bed with that person
RighteousIndignationMay 23, 2022
do we think this is real? I doubt 29% of lesbians would date a trans, probably closer to the number of heterosexual women IMO, its "being kind" while filling out a survey because they get attacked a lot more for saying no thank you.
ArmyofMeMay 23, 2022
If you read it says of that 30 percent, 80 percent of them would only date TIFs. So It’s too early to math but only 20 percent of that 30 percent would date a TIM. And that is what they admit. People lie in polling to look better. It’s a thing.
There's no indication of how many of the survey respondents 'identifying as lesbians' were actually lesbians. If there were few enough lesbians in the sample—and all or most of the 7 trans-ID respondents were 'transbians'—then that surprisingly high percentage could just be another manifestation of lesbian erasure.
Given that the article starts out by describing the sample as "1000 cisgender folks", though, I'm tempted to conclude that any sort of analysis is just way above this author's pay grade... SMH. ("Cisgender" means "not transgender", right? Just wana make sure it still means the same thing it meant yesterday—you never know with these guys)
Agreed. I think TiMs place a lot more pressure on lesbians to date them than TiFs place on heterosexual women (in fact I've never actually heard of TiFs doing this). I could see some lesbians, especially those deep in the libfem sauce, capitulating to this pressure and feeling obligated to date them even if they find them disgusting and ultimately wouldn't choose them if they were given a free choice.
There are also spicy straight women who like to claim to be "lesbians" because they're willing to date TIMs. (Lots of women like this on Tumblr.) It's baffling to me that "lesbian" is now some sort of fashion statement.
TiFs usually try and put pressure on gay dudes instead afaik, but they're typically more firm in saying no. Mostly they just post homophobic tweets though.
BoleroMay 23, 2022
29% of lesbians being trans-inclusive in their dating preferences. Bisexual/queer/nonbinary participants (these were all combined into one group) were most open to having a trans partner
Sorry, what does this mean in the context of "lesbians are non-men who love/bang non-men"? Yet another place where gender ideology makes things confusing and difficult to communicate about.
an interesting pattern of discrimination against trans women in particular emerged among those who would be expected to be attracted to women: 28% of trans-inclusive bisexual/queer/nonbinary folks and 38% of trans-inclusive lesbians said they wouldn’t date a trans woman — only a trans man
presented without comment.
The high rates of trans exclusion from potential dating pools are undoubtedly due in part to cisnormativity, cissexism, and transphobia...It is also possible that at least some of the trans exclusion is due to the fact that for some people, sexual orientation might be not (just) about a partner’s gender identity, but attraction to specific body types and/or judgment of reproductive capabilities.
you don't say
Some lesbians will date other lesbians trying to larp as "men". The relationships often don't survive for long. The woman pretending to be a "man" may ask her lesbian partner to now call herself bi or straight, which lesbians are going to object to. And some women who larp as "men" become very toxic as a result of testosterone, being immersed in the TCult, or a combination of things.
Any supposed "lesbian" who says she would date a man pretending to be a "woman" is either bi (and falsely calling herself "lesbian") or was afraid to answer honestly.
The two most telling things are:
-
People date based on sexual orientation, not gender nonsense.
-
Pretty much no one wants the men who call themselves "transwomen". lol
momofreyrellaMay 23, 2022
My experience with a TIF was this, she was married to a woman, went on T and started cheating on her wife. I saw firsthand what transition did to a woman and the garm it causes
pennygadgetMay 23, 2022
My experience with a TIF was this, she was married to a woman, went on T and started cheating on her wife. I saw firsthand what transition did to a woman and the garm it causes
The high doses of testosterone seriously fuck up some women's sexualities. Not only does it jack up their libido, but many TIFs who were once exclusively attracted to females suddenly start wanting to fuck men. Its literal conversion therapy for lesbians
CigarsofthepharoahsMay 23, 2022
Not to mention the fact that those who use the testosterone gel often end up accidentally transferring it to anyone they're in close contact with.
CalifasaurosMay 23, 2022
Yeahh...this study just, once again, points out the true priorities of the gender identity lobby: its lobbyists are not really trying to lessen the alleged suicides and murders of trans-identifying people. NO!!! They're trying to not only ensure that female-/non-binary identifying males have as much access to vulnerable girls and women as possible by granting them access to female sex-segregated spaces, they also feel the need to compel people who know what sex they are, primarily women, have sex with them.
"Trans Rights are Human Rights"? You mean the right to access female sex-segregated spaces, services, and sports? And, the right to compel as many women as possible to have sex with them?
I don't think so, Jack.
(participants were recruited using online advertisements, listserv messages, on-campus announcements, in-print magazine ads, snowballing methods, and invitations sent to previous study participants)
😂 So actually, the stats are waaaay worse and terfy because their survey pool was already rigged towards mostly woke college crowd (average age 26). What a gross and rapey article. It’s not “discrimination” to not want to date someone, you incels.
BlahdyblahdyblahMay 23, 2022
I love this so much. No matter how much these rapey incels stomp their feet and scream to get us to parrot their lie, they will never get what they want. Why on EARTH should anyone want to date a trans person when the vast majority of them are pushy, insufferable, narcissistic, and mentally ill? There's no advantage to getting into relationships with delusional people who can't cope with reality. Sorry not sorry, TRAs.
HalfMentalAlchemistMay 23, 2022
"New"
It's a few years old. I wonder how much is changed with the huge TRA push lately.
cranberrysaladMay 23, 2022
They’re also severely mentally ill. It’s the same reason I’d avoid someone with say a personality disorder. It is toxic and scary and harmful to be with someone that is severely mentally ill. Said with love because I have very close family members with severe mental illness, but if you’ve been around it or been abused by it I know you get this. It’s not like a trans woman is someone with no major mental afflictions. They’re fucking whacko, and that’s ignoring the deep misogyny and physical attributes which are not insignificant.
MonstrousRegimentMay 23, 2022
It is indeed toxic and scary and harmful, thank you for saying this. It takes years and a lot of emotional strength to learn how to deal with this in one's family. No way would I take it on unnecessarily.
Why are non binary and bisexuals and queer put in the same category? They’re totally different??
This is incel rhetoric. Fuck us or you are oppressing and killing us
Not surprising. People are not attracted to gender identities. People are attracted to sexed bodies based on their sexual orientation and a variety of other factors. Stop acting like this is shocking info.
The other half of people were confused and thought that they were picking the correct sex that matches their sexual orientation.
Or people in denial about their bisexuality, or who completely live in fantasy land about all trans people getting surgeries and how it's totes the same, can easily be transformed into the opposite sex, the fact more and more men and some women are attracted to femininity (make up, heels, lingerie, wigs, plastic surgery...) mostly and not femaleness, etc
Yeh I was super confused on the difference between ‘trans man’ and ‘trans woman’ for a long time tbf hahah
I was about to quote that first one as "creepy".
You know what the #1 factor in successful relationships is? Being happy with yourself before you get into a relationship.
I wouldn't be into anybody who was addicted to cosmetic surgeries, trans or no. Just the... falseness of it all. It's off-putting.
Which incels have often turned into “fuck us or we’ll kill you”
Considering the threats TRAs throw at everyone who doesn't want them, I would say that's where they are as well.
Incels and trancels, a match made in heaven, I guess.
TIMs are probably mostly incels anyway trying out a new desperate method!
This. A lot of TIMs will openly admit to being former incels and will say how stumbling upon trans content in online spaces saved them. There’s an unacknowledged link there, and it’s why (in my personal opinion) a lot of young TIMs are uber misogynistic and have backwards ideas about women in a way TIFs don’t exhibit because young socially challenged men spend a lot of time online and are more likely to get radicalized into incels, neo-Nazi shit etc
The "incel to trans pipeline" is definitely a thing.
100%
Oh the femoids get sex ALL the time!! I should try that!!! SUCK MY (GIRL)DICK!!
At the most desperate, their true rationale (besides the background causes, including the obligate eleventeen shitloads of porn) may just be that their odds of getting some kind of attention—even of the totally negative variety—are better as TIM than as just rank-and-file male losers who don't feel like practicing basic self-care or rudimentary social skills.
Nonsense. "The fact that most atheists would not consider religious fundamentalists as potential dating partners is yet another serious risk factor for increased psychological and physical health problems among the religious fundamentalist population." Same idea. Or straight men not wanting to date gay/bi men. Or lesbians not wanting to date straight/bi men. Or gay men not wanting to date women, or straight women not wanting to date women... The first is belief system, the second set sex, and trans identification communicates both (religious beliefs eg sexed/gendered souls and that one's sex is different from how one identifies).
Of course, only trans people are entitled to social support from a partner of their choice. The rest of us who still live in the real world have to suck it up and accept whatever crumbs they allow us to have, while we stroke their bloated egos and suffer. The narcissism just explodes off the page, doesn't it?
This is unreal! These people are living in a delusional bubble. Of course nobody wants to date someone who doesn't have the right equipment you fucking homophobic, misogynistic morons!
You picked out the two quotes I was going to.
Also, I can't believe how head-in-the-sand you have to be to seriously say "a gender incongruent with their stated sexual orientation" and still not accept that SEXual orientation is based on biological SEX.
How many months do we give it before they begin to rename it "genderal orientation"
It’s so childish and entitled too. They want to force everyone else to take responsibility for their mental well-being. Incels.