Maybe ask them: "If a woman is hungry and needs to feed her kids, is it more ethical to offer her a sandwich, or would you ask her for a blowjob so that she can earn the money for a sandwich?"

Then tell them to go fuck themselves [Edit: and ask if you can record it to post on the internet. Tell them you'll pay $20)

Whenever the sex work conversation comes up, I ask this:

Why does Harvey Weinstein belong in jail? If sex work is work, than why is he any worse than a CEO who has his secretary fetch his coffee and his dry cleaning? If sex work is work, than it's not unethical for a landlord to tell a struggling tenant that she can fuck him once a week to avoid being evicted. If sex work is work, than it shouldn't be a problem for a McDonald’s manager to give promotions and better hours to employees who are willing to give him blowjobs. And if sex work is just a job, than a rapist can atone for his crime by giving his victim $100.

And if the person I'm engaging with says those examples are horrible, than it's proof that they don't actually see sex work as a normal job

1 - Porn is paid rape. Rape is generally defined as unwanted sexual intercourse. Adding money into the equation does not change anything - the woman still does not want to perform intercourse but is doing it because she is desperate. Money only creates the illusion that a woman is prostituting herself of her own free will, when really it was a system of exploitation created by men. It's manipulation - "Give them the idea and let them think it was theirs." Also, there is inherently no such thing as "consent" in a system built on a vastly unequal power dynamic between men and women. In porn and prostitution, a man is literally paying to own another human being's body. There is nothing "ethical" about that.

2 - Porn shapes harmful behaviors by men and boys toward women and girls that are enacted in real life. This is no longer theory - this is fact. For example, this is why, as a woman, if I wanted to date a man, I would now have to wonder not if, but when he would ask to strangle me. And even if one specific piece of porn does not involve overt violence, it still normalizes the subjugation of women. There is nothing "ethical" about proliferating a culture that believes in subordinating women to men and violence against women, but this is what happens when people purchase or endorse porn.

My answer always is : "If porn could be ethical, you wouldn't need a redundant adjective to prove your point".

Can we make rape ethical? Murder? Aggravated assault? Felony larceny? Some things just aren’t ethical no matter what shade of lipstick is used. The fact that we have to develop arguments against this is very disturbing when you take a step back.

Some children choose to work and enjoy their jobs. But that doesn't make child labor okay.

Also, we don't allow people to sell their organs for money because we recognize as a society how that would lead to the wealthy harvesting the bodies of the poor. Prostitution is the same thing.

I typically ask them why they aren't doing it then, most don't seem to have a real answer for that.

Ask them if they're cool with bumfights. Tell them that bumfights are just another form of MMA. If hungry, impoverished, and/or drug-addicted men "choose" to beat the shit out of each other for other men's entertainment and cash, who are we to judge?

You can also ask them if they would like to fellate random men for groceries, get anally penetrated for rent money, or get smacked around so they can support their children.

I just ask them to describe their process for determining consent.

How do you verify that the women consented to everything that was filmed? How do you verify that she consented to have that film made available to you, as opposed to (for instance) happily making a film with her partner but with the assumption that he wouldn't share it with anybody else?

Usually you can see the hamster fall off the wheel just by asking these questions. It doesn't occur to most porn users to even consider these questions, let alone to genuinely attempt to vet their porn.

Honestly, I've found that if somebody 'comes at you' with these kinds of bold acclamations, it's on them to justify 'why', not on you to justify 'why not'

This applies to most topics,

I'd respond with;

"Ethical for whom?"

Let them lay the groundwork for the debate. Because that's where their credibility and reason usually slips up is when they're asked to expand more.

If they bring emotions into if and try to pull the ol' 'I'm a victim so obviously my opinion weighs more', or 'you're clearly not a good person because you believe X'. Than you know their ground to debate was weak to begin with - and absolutely call them out on it.

There's ethical meat, too, but something still has to die.

There is zero way to confirm that porn is "eThICal". Didn't pornhub literally delete like half of it's rape on tape because they couldn't verify ages? And that's just the surface level stuff. Fake IDs, trafficking, etc. These women and girls are very good actresses pretending they enjoy and consent to what they do.

Oh and the "ethical porn" that you buy? Those fucking shits for brains know that entire subreddits exist to repost paid OF rape on tape, right? Surely she didn't consent to having her rape on tape stolen for people to watch for free, right!?

If porn is just a job, why is it illegal for kids to become child porn actors?

Edit: What makes it different than other kinds of acting? And if they say, well, they can't consent at that age, ask them why don't we actively encourage kids to go into the 'ethical porn industry' when they grow up? What's the difference between taking it up the ass in porn vs becoming a fireman?

What comes to your mind first when you get asked that question?

I would first ask how they define, precisely, "ethical porn", and then I would question based on what they say in response. For example, I may ask how can they guarantee the people involved really consented (people would swear everyone in every TraffickingHub video consented but turned out there were millions of r*pe videos and child abuse videos...) and I may also ask about proof of the physical and mental health of the "performers" being properly taken care of (dissociation, drug and alchool abuse, prolapses and the likes, STDs are all a "normal" part of this very abnormal industry).

I feel like the search for "ethical porn" is, for most people, just a way to feel better with themselves for continuing with their habit/addiction of masturbating while watching pornography.

I guess another angle might be, to give them a thought experiment in which they replaced all the women in porn with only one non-white racial demographic. If they saw that they entire world was beating off to the use and abuse of one race, would it help them to see the underlying racism, and that any so-called "fully consenting" member of that race was in fact being used to reinforce the sexual use and abuse of that race?

Watching porn = training the mind to objectify women, and usually abuse women. There is almost no porn that doesn't either mold sexualities to either objectify or abuse women.

Re: the production of porn... monetary quid pro quo makes sex non-consensual.

How about a small thought experiment if you’re in a public place. Tell the person, male or female, to imagine fellating the next six men that pass you. Or imagine a busy restaurant with a wide range of clientele and tell them to imagine having sexual contact (the men’s choice as to what) with every man there from 16 to 80 over the course of a few “shifts”. That is only the tiniest sliver of the reality of prostitution.

some women 'choose' to prostitute themselves etc.

Being young, naive and apparently endorsing your own exploitation doesn’t make it less exploitative, it makes it more so.

"Why aren't you doing it then? Prostituting yourself, not paying for it."

Beyond the fact that it'd be hard to regularly verify that your "ethical porn" is truly "ethical" in its production, there is also the fact that porn leads to people desensitizing themselves to regular sex, and seeking out more extreme content. Over time, porn normalizes sex acts that previously weren't common, which is why more women report having engaged in anal sex, "aggressive" oral sex, and choking. Porn influences our sexual culture and expectations in a way that harms women.

We never make choices in a vacuum. People also choose to drink and buy drugs, but why? In the case of women choosing porn, it's always a coping mechanism for trauma and bad mental health. For male porn buyers, it's just another addiction. Not seeing anything ethical here, both sides are harming themselves and those around them.

Recommend they look up the word "oxymoron" in the dictionary.

Ethical porn is an oxymoron, because pornography literally translates to "depiction of cheap prostitutes".

So technically, a couple consensually filming their sex wouldn't even be porn. (I'd still consider it porn for the purpose of ethics, because you don't know whether that video was really homemade or whether people were simply paid to enact such a scenario. Except, of course, if you know the people - but I wager most people wouldn't want to watch porn of people they know but aren't in a relationship with, nor secretly lusting after.)

The only ethically okay thing possible would be a couple watching their own sex on video, after filming it. Which I don't think many are interested in. (There's also giving each other nude photos for the purpose of using them to masturbate, but I am not sure those are even considered porn. I theoretically wouldn't judge a man who has a nude photo of his wife to wank to, but only theoretically, because in practice, I either wouldn't know, or would judge the hell out of him for keeping that photo where others can find it ...)

I would ask them how they know for sure what their porn sources are. How do they know for an absolute certainty that the women involved want to be there? What the working conditions are, how the women are treated? An outfit with a mission statement isn't enough, anyone can just lie. Where's the regulation and enforcement? Is there a regulatory board, licensing of some kind?

These replies have been really helpful, thank you

is there ethical slavery? some would say yes

(e.g. live-in migrant domestic workers in the care economy in developing/developed countries, but they are paid; also the gendered industry needs its on spotlight on Ovarit which i'll get to at some point)

What does ethical mean in this context? If you pay for your porn, you're supporting the business model of exploiting women, providing a financial incentive to for men to find vulnerable women to groom into "choosing" prostitution.

The only vaguely ethical situation I can think of is an ordinary couple filming themselves then sharing their tape because they genuinely want to, for whatever reason. Even in that situation there are probably caveats and things to consider.

Ethical porn is if you film yourself and then give the tape to someone you have given specific permission to, without coercion, completely autonomously and without the exchange of money. This person does not get to show to anyone else unless you say so, nor can they keep the tape if you decide you want it back.