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Computers are TERFs
0, 1
binary
There are always a few crazies /tiny minority
Does she keep her car and house unlocked? Why not? Sounds like she needs to get over her prejudice and bigotry. Can't just lock your doors for a tiny minority of crazies
That's what she sounds like
I know. You know how they are. They don't listen. They start talking about semen packets in vents.
I hope you take this as a compliment because it’s meant to be one:
So this friend and I were in a car, she was giving me a lift after an event in our social circle. She asked me if I was still terfing online. I said yeah. She asked an impassioned, "why??"
This feels like the bit in a cowboy movie where Clint Eastwood has ‘to do one last job’ and his wife/partner protests as he stares laconically into the distance.
Being a terf is just something I gotta do.
Being a terf is just something I gotta do.
Awww. That's sweet and kinda rad. Well, if she doesn't understand why after the email I sent her that she claimed she would read but doesn't seem to have... then oh well.
She encouraged me to watch the TV show, "Pose," which is set in the 1980s/90s around gay ball culture (I assume in NYC)
She thinks most of them are gay effeminate men, then?
Good point
Maie sure she knows most are female attracted and keep their penises
Yeah I realized after that it was so stupid. What the fuck does effeminate gay men prancing around in clubs have to do with women being trapped in prison with men having their awards and scholarships taken by them?!
Since the deal is that you have to watch a (fictional) show, I suggest having her also watch a visual medium, like a podcast. The detransitioner who I think would appeal to her the most (based on her Pose interest) is Shapeshifter—a gay man who thought larping as a woman would help him feel better about his gender nonconformity when ultimately it didn’t and now he’s been left mutilated and medically harmed.
Sadly, your friend doesn’t seem to care enough about women to peak due to feminist arguments. But if her self image centers on being an LGB ally, then she needs to see how homophobic trans ideology is. Impressionable gays and lesbians are being told they are not good enough as they are, and so they see transitioning as a way out of this inferior state of being. If she could take a few minutes to think about how trans ideology is working against the goals of LGB liberation, then maybe she’d be less inclined to support it.
Point out to her how Iran routinely executes gays and lesbians, unless they agree to transition to the opposite sex. This article is a good read: https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2019/04/04/why-iran-is-a-hub-for-sex-reassignment-surgery
Something else that might give her food for thought: if she believes straight men have the inalienable right to identify as women, she’s implicitly undermining the interests of lesbians. What does it mean to be a lesbian if men have a claim to that word now? It means nothing.
Your friend is prepared to put the wants of men over the safety of women, and there is nothing you can show her that will change her mind. You really need to grasp that she does not have the same moral compass as you and she doesn't care about women who have been harmed.
There is nothing in the TV show you need to see. This isn't a gay rights issue. Its a 'woman have said 'no' and our consent cannot be given away' issue. Don't watch the show, don't try to convert her and stop letting her control the conversation!
Next time she brings it up, focus on consent and boundaries, express disappointment that she refuses to respect yours and change the subject.
To be honest, I was the one who brought it back up. The conversation went like this:
"Are you still terfing online?" "Yes" "Why??" "Because I think it's really important to protect the rights of women and girls." "I don't agree with you" "I know."
I said "I know" firmly and there was this understanding that saw I'd made up my mind and even if she disagreed with me, she understood that I was convinced of my reasons and also I am not a crazy person so I must have some reasons, even if they're wrong. And that was that.
I appreciated that. I think it's important to be firm and also not try and badger people into peaking them. If they don't want to listen, they won't. I'd already tried to peak her multiple times to no avail. I can say my piece, but not pester them endlessly. That's just being an asshole.
But then some minutes later, I brought it back up. Because of course, despite my noble intentions, I really did hope to peak her. And when she advised me to watch "Pose," I was like, "Great." Because most TRAs will NEVER actually read anything you suggest, they only want to scream, vilify, and preach. Actually taking IN information is foreign and dangerously sinful in their eyes.
So I admit I'm glad. It's simply an exchange of information. I even think I know what articles I'm going to send her from Reduxx. But it just pisses me off how so many women I've talked to about this, INCLUDING women who've been imprisoned with these men and were scared, will respond by telling me to mind my own business, that it doesn't affect them, that women are psychos too, etc... all with a dumb smile on their face. Like woman, I just told you (and I use the word "woman" because the word I really want to use is a misogynistic slur and probably not allowed on Ovarit) that women ARE LOCKED UP WITH THESE MEN AND RAPED BY THEM. How the fuck can you tell me some bullshit about how women have gotten impregnated by choice by passing packets of semen through vents?! HOW THE FUCK IS THAT RELEVANT?! DO YOU PERSONALLY NEED TO LOCKED IN A ROOM WITH MALE INMATE AND BE RAPED AND IMPREGNATED FOR YOU TO STOP TALKING ABOUT SEMEN PACKETS IN VENTS?! How the fuck can you just stand there with your smile after I JUST TOLD YOU what's happening to women prisoners and repeat, "but it doesn't affect anyone..."
You can use the stats from Corrections Canada showing that 44% of trans women in prison are there for sexual crimes.
But it sounds like your friend is a rape apologist 😬 tbh it doesn’t sound like there’s a lot getting through to her. She clearly has not dealt with creepy TIMs and doesn’t understand that the MAJORITY if not ALL of them are sexually motivated creeps.
I've never tried to peak someone like that. I just have nothing more to do with the few I've known. Mercifully they've mostly been online.
Not harmless wants, either. Perverted lusts. This movement is driven by rapists.
The prison is such a double standard... why are men in prison given the chance to transition or be transferred?! They are criminals, if they did the crime, they should do the time, no? This angers me so much, they cant even see the accomodation made for pedophile and rapist who claim to be women all while saying female prisoners should get no accommodation, which isnt what they are asking for. Women dont want to be victimized while paying for their crimes! Compared to what these male prisoners are asking, it's nothing!
This angers me so much, they cant even see the accomodation made for pedophile and rapist who claim to be women all while saying female prisoners should get no accommodation, which isnt what they are asking for. Women dont want to be victimized while paying for their crimes!
Come on now, just be kind! Stop hating! Love is love!
Hey I know what, why don't you watch a screening of Cabaret? Open your heart while you watch!
I don’t know why so many Americans think that rape is an acceptable punishment for committing crime, both for males and females. So many jokes about prison rape and it seems to have influenced the debate on letting men rape female prisoners too.
Or my favorite
The reward for rape is being moved to a harem of incarcerated women
Kara Dansky asks her friends
What is a TransWoman, anyway?
They already have learned to turn off to ‘what is a woman’ because of Matt Walsh
But what is a TransWoman? And when they don’t know, she asks why so many laws are being changed for them. And why women have to give up safety and rights
Your friend is trying very hard to stay comfortable and virtuous. Pat answers et al. So I don’t know if you will get anywhere. There is no social benefit to being intellectually honest
This may work, but likely not
Kara Dansky asks her friends
What is a TransWoman, anyway?
I tried that once and I got, "Well it's someone who used to be a man and now became a woman."
So I asked again, "so what is a woman?"
And of course that was waaaay to complex to even define. And the argument petered off. I knew they'd just derail so I was like, what's the point of trying and let it go.
You may never have luck. You may have to cut your losses
But
How does one change into a woman?
How can a man know what it is to be a woman, all he will know is his idea of what a woman is
Why is their idea of a woman so sexual?
What happened to all the fetishistic cross dressers, peepers, and flashers. Why is the safety of women and girls NEVER a consideration?
Why do they never want a third space
Why is it only women giving up safety and rights?
Andrew Gold Heretics videos!!!! like this one
There are soo many good ones, interviews with detransitioners, doctors, therapists refuting all of these points and then some!
Edit to add: Helen Joyce on Heretics talking about men appropriating breastfeeding
Richie Herron talking about detransition post-op
I really like articles on the website Women are human:
Any compromise to be made should be made by men. Just as women and girls share sex-specific facilities while some of us wear skirts and others wear pants, and have managed on a daily basis over decades of sharing facilities to not rape or beat up one another over differences in fashion, men in pants must get comfortable urinating and changing alongside their brothers in skirts... Women are not human shields that should be placed between two warring factions of males. If the two male groups choose not to get along and share spaces civilly, then the male individuals who identify as women must fight for their own facilities – just as women once fought and won sex-specific facilities. Continue reading Why it’s Impossible for Women to Compromise With the Transgender Movement | Women Are Human. Read more at: https://www.womenarehuman.com/why-its-impossible-for-women-to-compromise-with-the-transgender-movement/
We just want to pee beside you, change beside you, shower beside you, sleep beside you, be in the scrum beside you, stand on the podium beside you, take from you, do time with you, and F#@! your lesbian vagina
And I forgot — we also want you to stop calling yourselves women, stop referring to your pregnancies, menstruation, vaginas, uteri, cancers, or breastfeeding in any way that associates those with women — because that hurts our feelings. If you cannot accede to every one of our wishes, we’ll threaten you with rape and death online, if possible get the police to act on our complaints about you, and notify your employer of your bigotry. Because your words are hate. If you don’t like any of this — stay home. We just want to pee. Continue reading We just want to pee. | Women Are Human. Read more at: https://www.womenarehuman.com/we-just-want-to-pee/
It affects all women and girls; it's only when you don't cater to TIPs that it affects very few people.
So I'm not sure if this is right, but my hunch from what you've said here is she's in the mindset that she's safe to 'be kind' and if things ever went beyond where she considered to be 'too far,' she'd be able to make it stop then and there by stopping playing along. That she has faith that there's some kind of safety net in place that actually isn't there, that her rights and wellbeing are safe and protected and something she can take for granted, that if she was wronged and tried to do something about it people would be reasonable about it. So that might be the angle to attack this from, because sadly it seems like the terrifying plight of female prisoners isn't making an impact on her. Impressing on her that because she's so busy eagerly saying 'yes' she hasn't realized that her right to say 'no' is being stripped away. So maybe look for more testimonials of women like her who found themselves on this ideology's bad side and realized too late that nothing about this is reasonable.
Side note, she sounds particularly clueless about all of this if her push is to get you to watch a show focused on drag queens.
she's in the mindset that she's safe to 'be kind' and if things ever went beyond where she considered to be 'too far,' she'd be able to make it stop then and there by stopping playing along.
I think that's a big part of. I don't think any of my female friends I've spoken to about this truly understand the legal implications of this in my country. I know for myself I just thought, "well people will just be cool." I wanted to believe that it wouldn't be abused (this is not even counting men who believe they're women but other men who are not deluded but simply use the law to commit sex assaults and other shit). Somehow I just believed, everything will be okay, everyone will act nice and respectful, and it'll all work out. I know that sounds ridiculous but that's what I wanted to believe. Because I know what it's like to have the law or a social situation stacked against you and I believe that's been done unfairly to me. So I want others to enjoy rights too. So I wanted to believe it.
That she has faith that there's some kind of safety net in place that actually isn't there, that her rights and wellbeing are safe and protected and something she can take for granted
I find this is what so many women (and even some men) think in general, and not just about women's spaces. It's so obvious that this is insane, that I think the default thought it, "well, I must not be understanding something. Surely someone will do something if things go wrong. Surely if we want a fair society, somehow this all works out with an acceptable level of risk and we're building a society that will be better for everyone. Even if there's a few speed bumps, those will be smoothed out. So even though it looks precarious, surely this is all being worked out."
One time a woman responded to my concerns about trans-identified men in women's bathrooms and prisons that, "you have to do stuff to be designated trans legally," as if that solved the problem. Of course she had no idea what the "stuff" entailed.
that if she was wronged and tried to do something about it people would be reasonable about it.
Lol yeah a lot of women, and a few men, thought people would be reasonable about it if things went too far. A lot of women whose careers have been destroyed, who've been vilified and been treated as social pariahs, equated with racists, etc... thought that if they just explained their qualms, or brought their grievances, people would be reasonable about it. But I guess my friend will be fine because after all, it doesn't affect anyone. And certainly not her personally. And she'll never have to deal with the fallout. So she believes.
Impressing on her that because she's so busy eagerly saying 'yes' she hasn't realized that her right to say 'no' is being stripped away.
I might try to incorporate that in some of the articles I send her. But this is one aspect I don't think a lot of women get. That it's about more than just the issues themselves (spaces, legal designations, etc... ) It's about women's right to say NO. It's about slowly, and covertly, pushing women into a space where they are compelled to say yes for fear of being the Demon Woman Who Says No. It's about wearing down the COLLECTIVE protections that women have from men so that individual women feel compelled to rely on a familial male "owner" (spouse, male relative) to protect them rather than trying to take on the system as a whole.
This is something leftist women don't understand generally. This is also something conservative women, who are much more vocal about rejecting TRA demands, also fail to understand, because they still want to fit into that patriarchal structure and figure they will find other ways to be "safe" from male violence.
I'll give you an example. A couple years ago, an Ovarit poster gave an account of a situation at work whereby during a meeting, people were asked to introduce themselves in the circle, including stating their pronouns.The mixed-sex group had people in standard gender-conforming dress. All of the women declared pronouns (except the poster). None of the men did. The poster pointed out that this whole exercise was basically a declaration of submission by women.
The point (though probably not conscious) was that the women felt compelled to provide "woman service" (which includes many tasks including mothering, caregiving, self-sacrifice, self-effacement, etc...) lest they suffer consequences at work (and likely in their friendship group and probably in their own minds as well as they were socialized to believe this is what a "good" woman does. And they didn't want to suffer what happens to "bad" women who don't do their duty. The men had been socialized that they didn't have to care or go along with the ridiculous spectacle and that they would not be penalized. Because THEY were not expected to be self-effacing, walk on eggshells, check themselves every second, be pleasing and appealing, providing emotional caregiving to other random people who might be in distress (cuz trans). They were not socialized that to FAIL to provide this or behave that way might cost their jobs or social circle or wrestle with internal torment over being unacceptable morally and practically.
The POINT is that whether a woman is declaring that she is a proud submissive wife, or that she would never have an abortion, or sex before marriage, or that she is an "ally" or sharing her pronouns (especially in situations where it's obvious that no one is trans-identified) is to declare, "I'm a good person. Don't beat me up. Don't cast me out. Don't do the things that happen to women who didn't do the dishes right or know their place back in the old days."
Most women, either left or right, are not actually conscious of what they're declaring.
The men had been socialized that they didn't have to care or go along
I was taught "if you can't say something nice don't say anything at all." My brother was taught "if you can't say something nice say something else."
That's sexed socialization in a nutshell.
Yes to all of this.
One of the things related to this that comes to mind is how after experiencing a sexual assault, many women go through a 'promiscuous' phase. And I think that's a maladaptive coping mechanism because as long as you always say 'yes,' you can pretend like it's your idea, like it's what you want, like you have some power in the situation, and you never have to face what might happen if you AREN'T compliant and say 'no'...and then men do what they want to you anyway. As if it makes you unrapable as long as you always 'consent.' Smiling and nodding, laughing, pushing down your feelings and 'playing along,' can make it feel bearable, like it isn't just being done to you, like you COULD say 'no' if you wanted.
The reality that this is being done to women even if we refuse, that any and all harm done to us isn't being treated as worth considering and 'opting in' is meaningless if we don't actually get to opt out, is a lot scarier. Going into denial about that is comforting. 'Of course you're welcome here, TWAW <3 !' you say to the man who would aggressively force his way in anyway if you told him he wasn't welcome.
after experiencing a sexual assault, many women go through a 'promiscuous' phase. And I think that's a maladaptive coping mechanism because as long as you always say 'yes,' you can pretend like it's your idea, like it's what you want, like you have some power in the situation, and you never have to face what might happen if you AREN'T compliant and say 'no'.
Wow this hit hard. It's been a recurring theme in my life. Sexually but also for general violence and other stuff.
'Of course you're welcome here, TWAW <3 !' you say to the man who would aggressively force his way in anyway if you told him he wasn't welcome.
Yes, and it's also about internal conflicts. I think people DO want to generally be a good person and I think we're collectively traumatized by the horrific harms from racism so there's the desire to "be on the right side of history." I feel that phrase gets a lot of scorn on Ovarit and it's called "virtue-signalling" but I think people really mean it. They want to do something different, better. Truly good intentions are behind that. But also there is the "virtue-signalling" because women don't want to see themselves as bad people. But the expectation of a "good" woman is not quite the same as for a man when you read the fine print.
Agreed. I'm definitely someone who's been known to refer to 'the right side of history' with a heavy dose of sarcasm, but think understanding motivations is pretty important and that usually includes understanding that people usually find some kind of way to rationalize whatever they're doing in a way that makes them feel like they're on the 'right side,' that they're good people (or better...or at least not worse than the people they see as their opposition). Think people who do significant harm to others without relying on mental contortions to justify it as 'it's actually not as bad in this case when I did it because...' are pretty rare. With fanatical movements, no matter how deranged and horrific, they're powered by devotees married to the idea that this is the path to creating a better world. Criminals, likewise, almost always have a 'reason' for why their victims 'deserved it' or why it wasn't that bad and people seeing it as that bad is at best a misunderstanding or at worst a malicious smear (again, the sheer number of rapist men who are happy to talk about the rape(s) they've committed...as long as you don't call it the 'R' word). Very few people are comfortable with the idea that they're bad people (although a rare few seem to get off on it).
women like her who found themselves on this ideology's bad side and realized too late that nothing about this is reasonable.
Effectively JK Rowling
Anyone got a good timeline summary of JK Rowling's pre and road to peakening?
There's also Shannon Thrace's excellent book about her husband going down the AGP path, but that's going to be longer than an episode of Pose.
They have segregated areas in male prisons. I totally support making ALL prisons safe for EVERYONE in them - men included.
I saw a documentary about prisons around the world - the United States has a terrible prison system, compared to some other countries. I don't see how it helps to subject men to the sensory deprivation ALONE of your typical US prison, even that is so damaging. If you want to decrease recidivism rates, you don't need to make prisons PLEASANT, but at least make them so that you are helping those who want to change, to change. And even those who come in not wanting to, create as many opportunities for them to change their mind about changing.
I'm not being Pollyanna - if our social goal is to reduce recidivism, for everyone's sake, then make prisons in line with that goal. If someone's going in for 11 years, I want them to come out as well-adjusted and able to make money as possible. Don't treat anyone like animals, and then be surprised when they come out, they're not able to change their ways. I think decreasing recidivism rate even by a "mere" 5% is a worthy goal. 35% would be phenomenal.
They also need to pay a lot more to the people staffing prisons, and also training. And also social workers. The "Helping Professions," rather than the shall we say, "Helping Yourself Professions."
I think this is all important. But who exactly is supposed to give a shit? Who is supposed to do the work and advocating? Women.
I was on a mailing list for a prison rape abolition group called Just Detention International. I finally unsubscribed a couple of years ago. In the auto-generated form that asks why, I gave two reasons.
The elephant in the room, the rape of women by trans-identified men that they were refusing to acknowledge or discuss.
I had realized that while I passionately gave a shit about men being raped in prison by other men, most men probably didn't give a shit about women being raped in prison. Whether rape by man or sexual assault or coercion by a female inmate, none of this fucking mattered to them. So why was I spending all my energy and concerns on a mixed group when half the group was never going to reciprocate that concern and care?
Part of the problem is understanding that a) Some people really only care about themselves and only ever will. b) most people are self-serving, prone group-think, and kind of stupid. This sadly includes women. If all these women I talk to tell me to "mind my own business" because "it doesn't affect you," then that's pretty self-serving and dumb. But a critical insight is also:
c) Both sexes know that women are more likely to do something useful about a social problem, and that men are more likely to let it fester. Because of this, both sexes get angry at women for not taking on the role of caregiver/moral voice instead of recognizing that men are responsible for themselves collectively and it's not our responsibility, even if they sadly just do horrible shit to each other and kill each other.
Honestly, the argument that there are some bad apples in every group is hard to refute.
However, when a group refuses to condemn those bad apples, it is fair to say the group is collectively morally bankrupt.
The tricky part is always about the "good ones", some of whom actually do speak out against the bad apples. You could argue that even the good ones are enabling the bad ones in the first place. But what if the good ones completely distance themselves from the now largely bad group?
If both of you are ready to argue in good faith, it probably will come to some kind of compromise or agreement to disagree.
The thing about "a few bad apples" is that the rest of that saying goes "spoil the entire barrel."
It can help to bring this back to a matter of consent. Do women get to insist on our boundaries, particularly when it comes to particularly vulnerable, private, sensitive things (such as who we undress around)? Do these men listen to us and respect that? No? Then they're not good apples.
Shift the focus from it being an 'identity' to a set of unacceptable behaviors.
Do women get to insist on our boundaries, particularly when it comes to particularly vulnerable, private, sensitive things (such as who we undress around)? Do these men listen to us and respect that? No? Then they're not good apples.
I agree. No matter how "legitimate" their circumstances of transition were, if they can't see why women need female-only spaces, it is hard to consider them good apples.
I know it may be controversial. I would even argue that TIFs and female detransitioners, if they have gone too far and their presence causes distress to regular women in spaces like shelters, they should have their separate spaces.
Exactly!!
Every single group will have awful people in it, and every single attempted solution for this won't be perfect. The goal is to find a solution that does as much good as possible and minimizes the amount of harm it causes.
A small but still significant amount of people are wrongfully convicted of crimes they didn't commit. It's an awful, horrible thing for them to be imprisoned for something they never did. Does this mean we should throw the entire justice system out the window and let actual criminals roam free so that we can solve that problem and guarantee no one will ever be wrongfully convicted?
Back to the "trans-identified males in women's spaces" debate, in contrast to the above argument which is similar to the current M.O. for TIMs, there is a solution that minimizes harm to both parties and therefore TIMs should (emphasis on "should"!) be fine with: separate spaces. You know, like women fought and bled for!
Again, the focus is on minimizing harm and maximizing good. If the sole reason it's ~so important~ for TIMs to not be in male spaces is because they're at actual risk there, then a space exclusively for trans-identified males solves that problem without compromising the safety and dignity of women. It does what TIMs ask ("ask") while doing no harm.
And yet I've never seen or heard of a single TIM or TRA support this idea. In fact, if anyone brings it up, they get mad at the thought of it! It's almost like they don't think it solves the actual ""problem"" of making sure every TIM is cocooned in validating feelz every second of every day and doing anything to halt their narcissistic-supply train is ""unkind."" But throwing potential rapists into women's spaces isn't unkind because they're not as important oppressed (""oppressed"") so who cares what happens to them.
(I realized as I typed the prison abolition argument that there actually are people who believe this and have been quite successful at convincing others on social media so maybe we're too far gone, humanity never was capable of critical thinking, and the Internet was a mistake)
Again, the focus is on minimizing harm and maximizing good.
A common argument by trans people is how about "trans men"? It is true that if a person looks like a man, regardless of their actual sex configuration, this person will cause distress to rape survivors and DV survivors.
I honestly think TIFs and female detransitioners who have gone too far should have their separate spaces as well. The goal is not some kind of ideology, but to minimize harm.
I definitely understand why that could be a problem, and it really does highlight how having third/separate spaces for trans-identified people (or just sex-neutral spaces alongside sex-specific ones) is the best compromise. And the complete refusal by TIP to third spaces highlights how entitled and often-antagonistic they are: I think some TIFs don't want third spaces because they might actually like the idea that they'd scare/intimidate women in female-only spaces, because their response validates the TIFs' belief that they have somehow actually escaped being female. And we all know how common it is for TIMs to either not care at all about women's feelings on the topic and/or become consumed by their male entitlement and "most-oppressed-subgroup-ever" narrative (written by said male entitlement) that tells them they should get what they want at all times, of course.
Overall, TIP and TRAs have shown over and over that their priorities aren't about minimizing harm--especially not to women, but neither to TIPs even--it's about maximizing TIP's validation and happiness at the expense of everyone else.
I realized as I typed the prison abolition argument that there actually are people who believe this and have been quite successful at convincing others on social media
I had multiple SM friends/acquaintances advocate this and all I could think was... what the fuck is wrong with you?! Where the hell has your brain gone??
I've always said, I'd love to run a poll on these people to ask "have you, or has someone you love, ever been the victim of a violent crime?" (And if we wanna get real spicy, add a poll for "what is your parent's/guardian's annual salary?") I think I already know what the stats would show, but it'd be cool to verify.
That's the thing though. You don't have to personally be a victim of violent crime. I generally err on the side of not wanting endless punishment and find the US system draconian. But the idea that you get rid of one law force and people will just... be nice to each other is insane. OBVIOUSLY the only thing that will bring is mafias. They will become the new "law" and "enforcement" but unfortunately we won't have much say in what the laws and enforcement protocols are. This is just... basic.
People say the stupidest things like, "if someone steals something, that means they need it." And it just isn't true. YES, sometimes it IS true. But a lot of the times it's not. Another problem is that a lot of people cannot accept the contemporary psychiatric model of anti-social behavior and accept that a small percentage of people are "born that way" and there is little to nothing that can be done to reform them based on "moral" grounds because the grounds just aren't there. Even without psychopathy, a lot of people aren't "evil" per se and can change, but are caught in drug addiction or their own anti-social behavior anyhow.
I honestly just couldn't understand how the people around me could fail to think more than one step ahead and consider the larger implications of what they were advocating for.
Oh of course people shouldn't have to be affected first to have sympathy for victims and understand why prison abolition is a horrible idea, I so wish that were the case! But much like how many men apparently need to be told to either imagine if their female victims were someone they loved, or be reminded that she is already someone's loved one... idk I might have lost hope in innate human empathy lol.
I'm sure some of these people (the bulk of them men I imagine) have some hero complex or main character syndrome where they'll get to be the new law and in charge of vigilante justice, but I wonder how much of the movement and belief in it is by well-meaning people trying to desperately cling to the last strands of a just-world fallacy. And/or have never extrapolated past the emotional high of the thought of freeing (what they believe to be) a bunch of victims of the system, either because they don't want to think about the consequences past that... or they're so far removed from what the consequences would be that they decide it's a worthy sacrifice (that everyone else has to make).
Like your "people steal only because they're in need" example is a perfect one! How many of these people would be willing to let thieves steal from them? How many of these people have actually been a victim of theft, or know someone who has? I have a relative who literally had to close her small, self-run business because of repeated theft and repeated lack of the police in her town doing anything about it. But I guess because sometimes people stole food who would otherwise starve to death then theft shouldn't be outlawed for anything I guess.
It also definitely has to do with the fact that they're in a social media echo chamber where the only time they ever hear about theft is all of the "legally wrong but morally good" cases, where they can and do put themselves in the other's shoes and think "well if I were homeless and starving I'd probably steal food too!" And after enough repetition of this, eventually their version of reality genuinely doesn't include malicious thieves in it at all. (And ironically, mysteriously, these people are often the same people who claim to be for civil rights and protecting victims of society too. Just not when the downtrodden are inconvenient for their just-world "I'll get to be a superhero beloved by all" narratives I guess.)
Your points about psychopathy (and it being ignored by these people because it's sad to think about and inconvenient for their narrative) and the fact that most people aren't innately "evil" or "good" but just go with the flow of societal norms (which means if we got rid of prisons and laws, a lot of people--men--would take that as "everyone says it's okay to do whatever I want now awesome!" as you said) is spot on. Too many people have drunk the Kool-aid of "I judge myself (and people I like or agree with) by my intentions and I judge others by their actions" and don't even realize it. It's depressing really!
I honestly just couldn't understand how the people around me could fail to think more than one step ahead and consider the larger implications of what they were advocating for.
I can't tell you how many times I've thought this exact thing in my life oh my god. And I've realized recently just how much this cycle happens because the people in it are never experiencing the effects/consequences of their beliefs and actions. As long as they don't have to deal with crime (because they don't live in a bad area and/or they, again, have never been affected by it themselves so their reality was, is, and always will be crime-free to them) they'll have no reason to ever see the light.
I can't tell you how many times I've thought this exact thing in my life oh my god.
Well... I guess it's... comforting to know I'm not alone?
In the case of TIMs, outside of the ones forcibly transed as kids and SA/trauma survivors I would argue that they are ALL bad apples.
They’re doing it for a sexual fetish. Are we okay with regular men flashing women and masturbating in public?
And the saying is "a few rotten apples spoil the barrel". Even if it was "a few" bad TIMs to begin with (it wasn't) the entire barrel is completely rotten now.
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How does a woman or girl discern good from bad? Do rape survivors and DV survivors not matter? Don’t these women deserve safe spaces apart from men?
A common argument by trans people is how about "trans men"? It is true that if a person looks like a man, regardless of their actual sex configuration, this person will cause distress to rape survivors and DV survivors.
I honestly think TIFs and female detransitioners who have gone too far should have their separate spaces as well. The goal is not some kind of ideology, but to minimize harm.
JK Rowling's 2020 piece on this might be a good start if she's never read the actual text of it.
And send her to r/MTF on Reddit. She can scroll through that awhile. That's pretty good evidence these are the most misogynistic of straight males.
While that's maybe the most horrific, it just pisses me off that it's not enough that harm is done to women. People just don't care. They can't even say, "do you feel comfortable changing next to a man in the gym?" It's always, "do you feel comfortable having your young daughter changing next to a man at the pool?" Obviously the second one is worse, but why isn't the first bad enough??
To help You argue that even the 'lesser' elements of gender ideology are still deeply sinister and dangerous, Pronouns Are Rohypnol by Barra Kerr is an absolute must.
My friend ended the conversation saying, once again, "but if it doesn't affect anyone..." with a stupid grin on her face
What about these two "not the onions"
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2024/11/06/girl-with-autism-banned-transgender-opponent-man/
Anyone else got more?
Edit:
TIM who went after a woman's rape shelter (among other things) awarded a meritorious service award: https://reduxx.info/canada-trans-identified-male-who-campaigned-to-defund-rape-shelter-awarded-medal-by-governor-general/
TIM who flashed breasts at white house assaults TIFs (and they grovel): https://reduxx.info/trans-identified-male-who-exposed-his-breasts-at-the-white-house-now-accused-of-sexually-assaulting-another-transgender-person/
Father of trans kid is a pedo, despite this certain parties want him to continue being a father and partaking in activism. If you were ever wondering if pedophila was worse than not affirming your child, apparently it's the latter: https://reduxx.info/exclusive-details-father-of-nh-state-champion-trans-athlete-sentenced-to-federal-prison-for-distributing-child-pornography/
Taiwanese TIM politician threatens to dox women over publicly available information indicating he is in fact a TIM: https://reduxx.info/trans-activist-taiwanese-politician-threatens-to-release-addresses-identification-numbers-of-women-who-oppose-gender-ideology/
Usual TIM protesting of GC escalates into explosion. Also see the lovely calls for violence- "One TERF, one bullet, social justice": https://reduxx.info/francia-transactivistas-provocan-una-explosion-en-un-intento-de-sabotear-una-conferencia-critica-con-la-ideologia-de-genero/
Men in Spain discover they can abuse self ID... again... and again...
https://reduxx.info/spain-man-avoids-abuse-charges-after-changing-legal-gender-identity/
r/honesttransgender tackles the least honest trans of them all, trans that insist they are "done transitioning" and are now "cis" (how they managed to invent time travel and change their 'birth gender' is anyone's guess): https://archive.ph/SA7gn
"Informed Consent": https://www.tumblr.com/redditreceipts/749491216954114048
50 year old TIM chooses to swim with young girls by abusing the "and up" part of the age category wording as well as the fact everyone is clearly scared to tell him no. It is not normal for an adult to be at these kinds of events. There are swimming groups for adults, by the way. Literally no need for an adult to do this: https://wpde.com/news/nation-world/police-called-on-50-year-old-trans-swimmer-sharing-locker-room-with-young-girls-toronto-sun-womens-sports-transgender-lgbtq-sports-athletics-fairness-riley-gaines-canada-ontario
Isla Bryson aka Adam Graham, the double-rapist who only changed his name and gender after it looked like he was headed to prison https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-63823420
My friend ended the conversation saying, once again, "but if it doesn't affect anyone..." with a stupid grin on her face.
It affects every single female on the planet because allowing men to steal our words and silence us about our experiences, our bodies and our history is to deny reality, including the reality of sex based oppression around the world and throughout time.
She and all the other 'just be kind' women are selling out women and girls and spitting on the graves of all their aunties and grandmothers. Ask her why she has so little self respect. And tell her you're still terfing because you do.
To me this is bigger even than men or women and the boundaries between them.
Once we are persuaded not only to go along with one obvious and absurd lie, but to actively support it, we are vulnerable to many more. Women have been persuaded to support an absurdity that is not in their interests. What will we be persuaded to accept next?
People already think the truth doesn't really matter. No society can survive long with that attitude.
Anyway... not quite what you were asking but I liked this Heretics interview with Dr Az Hakeem, who probably knows more about all the men and women who fall under the trans umbrella than anyone else alive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whvkEmLi9aQ
Honestly, if she thinks this is about drag queens, I’d counter with this: https://www.city-journal.org/article/the-real-story-behind-drag-queen-story-hour
I just stopped trying to explain, because they don't hear me. I've boiled it down to (1) It's cultural appropriation of women and (2) it's a lie, and I'm uncomfortable saying stuff I don't believe. It doesn't begin to cover it, but that should be enough, and in my experience they stop listening about the time I start explaining anyway.
Well said.
I like to consider why these ppl should be included in womens spaces.
Because they say they feel like women. Because they feel uncomfortable or unsafe with men. Because they will feel validated.
It is ALL feelings. So if their feelings matter, why not women's?
It's not a text, but what about sending her the behind the looking glass documentar? It's about the abuse trans-widows women suffer
Barbie Kardashian
Yeah that's a horror clown for the ages. But I think she'd just go, "there are always exceptions." After all, women get pregnant by passing semen packets in prison so it all works out, right?/s
I think I know which ones I'll send. May post an update in the future.
The TransLogic and ThisNeverHappens circles have a lot of peak-worthy material.
Also the pinned Peak Trans Uncensored threads in o/GenderCritical, with many contributors' stories of what peaked them.
Throwing sources at people rarely works. Youre better off letting her try to convince you. She thinks this is important, ok, hit me with your best argument. What makes that guy more of a woman than any other guy? Because he says he is? Ever heard of "lying"? Because the doctors say he is? Ever heard of hysteria, recovered memories, or multiple personalities? Let her find her best arguments, and concede as much as you can. Yeah, i get why you want to beleive in doctors, but you know medical scoence evolves and what aboit the Cass review?
If youre set on using sources, i liked the Pronouns Are Rohypnol article.
See this just proves she not really listening or thinking, shes just repeating. Letting her try to convince you forces her to engage her brain instead of just repeating the next talking point. Obviously it affects someone, otherwise why would people be pushing it so hard? It obviously must matter to the TIM, but the argument is that it doesnt matter to anyone else. Ok, then have him wrote it on a napkin, fold it up and put it in his pocket. Its a sort of contradiction to say something is absolutely vitally important, but also has no impact on anything or anyone.
The problem is that all your points rest on TIMs being men. Which they obviously are. But within her worldview, they arent. Theyre unfortunate looking women with a serious medical condition. None of your arguments will work with that as a foundation.
Worldviews, like empires, do not fall to outside attack. They fail from within. If you tell a fundamentalist christian about scientific proof of evolution, its not going to work. The devil put that there to test them. You have to climb into their worldview, and show them where the internal contradictions are. And the best way to do that is slow, respectful conversation.
All good points.