I'm barely 8 mins past the 1st episode of this season, and I'm already cringing at 'Viktor' and the classic TIF frog voice. Although it feels more like they're straining to sound lower/deeper??
Ellen continues to look like a sickly Victorian child wearing their father's clothes. The short haircut really does nothing flattering, either. It's just a sad state of affairs all around.
Idk if I'm gonna be able to get through this season--I kinda enjoyed it in the beginning, but now it's one of those shows where I just sit through it because I've already gotten this far... but that voice. It's bad enough the characters act like it's completely normal and that they're A Man™️, and that we--the audience--are supposed to be convinced of it too, but yeesh.
I'll probably cave and finish it, but I don't think it's a good sign I'm already eyerolling as much as I am barely 10 mins in as of typing this lol.
It's difficult enough to try and suspend your belief that this tiny little croaky lady is A Man for the show, but the writers trying to convince the audience that not only is lady a man, but she's also a stud that has slept with all the women in town? Come on now
I just shook my head when that line in the bar happened lol like suuuure
I will never stop thinking "but... Vanya is a man's name"
Um, excuse me, America and sometimes Western Europe are the only countries that matter. In these countries an A at the end of a name is feminine and therefore highly triggering for any self-respecting transmasc.
The exception is anime, where all the cute Ryuugas, Kuramas, and Tanakas just might be transition goals uwu.
I will never stop thinking "but... Vanya is a man's name"
Silly TERF. Countries, cultures, and languages outside of America aren't real. They're just Epcot attractions. 🤣
Yeah. Isn’t it a Russian diminutive for the name Ivan?
Viktor just doesn’t work name-wise, IMO, lol. Either go with Ivan (or John).
Not that you can change your sex, anyway…
I stopped watching after season 2 when Ellen made her announcement and they decided they were going to keep her in the show.
HA this is about the point I dropped off too. I think I started season 3 but couldn’t continue after the super awkward, weird scene where Vanya “came out” to her sister.
I work as an editor and run into situations sometimes where an author has broken something in their story badly and the only solutions are either unraveling the story back to that point and rewriting tons, or trying really hard to put a bandaid on it and “make it work.” We’re talking fuckups like forgetting a prominent character has cancer after the third chapter, then getting to the end where they are supposed to die, after writing them as if they’re totally healthy for 87% of the book. A similar situation is when an author writes a book intending a certain fate or consequence for a character, but they change their mind when the book is nearly finished (often because they’ve grown attached to the character and want to spare them that fate or consequence.)
I feel like this was the situation those poor writers had to deal with when Ellen decided to “man up.” They probably had a whole arc planned AND mostly written that actually made sense and picked up from where season 2 left off, with events and character development that followed logically. Come to find out that a major character (some might consider Vanya the MAIN character because of how often she is centered in an ensemble cast) is going to just change her performed sex stereotypes now, and that their job is to make it work. I’d be SO pissed and phone it in, and it feels like that’s exactly what happened in the writer’s room.
“Oh. OK, so fuck the story, fuck everyone else, fuck the weird time loop everyone is in. We have to pull something out of our asses to explain why a beloved character’s sex change is her priority instead of maybe stepping up emotionally for her siblings after being at the epicenter of every major crisis in the first two seasons.”
I think that THE hardest thing for many writers is consistent motivation. If you’re writing a static honorable paladin he is not going to murder someone just for shits and giggles. If you’re writing a coming-of-age story where the character has to make a difficult choice and dump her boyfriend to go to the college of her dreams on the other side of the planet, you’re not going to have her immediately get into a new relationship in her hometown right before she packs her bags. A motive for Vanya to trans makes ZERO sense and comes out of nowhere. I hate it! I hate it so much lol.
HA this is about the point I dropped off too. I think I started season 2 but couldn’t continue after the super awkward, weird scene where Vanya “came out” to her sister.
Its hilarious that everyone immediately cheers Vanya on when she "comes out". Its so unrealistic. Like, NOBODY so much as said, "where the fuck did THIS come from!?" or "We have more important shit to deal with than getting you a new boy wardrobe, Vanya!!". They just exist to be cheerleaders for "Victor"
I’d be SO pissed and phone it in, and it feels like that’s exactly what happened in the writer’s room.
One of the former UA writers is in hot water because it turns out he was pissed about having to write around Page's decision to conversion therapy herself
Its hard enough when a writer has to write around an actor dying, getting pregnant, taking a break from the show, etc. Thats something they expect in the industry. But having to suddenly trans a character that wasn't supposed to be trans? It must be a nightmare
Oh, God, the frog voice. I was just thinking about that today.
A random small YouTuber I used to follow uploaded something recently, and I thought "Oh, I haven't seen her in while, I wonder what she's been up to." I was shocked to discover that she'd transed herself. Short hair, thin pedo moustache, ill-fitting clothes, and the most grating and uncomfortable frog voice you've ever heard.
You have to understand, back when I still watched her channel, she was smart, funny, extremely charismatic, and an all-around cutie patootie. Like, the kind of person you wish you knew in real life because they seemed like such fun to be around.
Her current self seems sad, low energy, detached, and that voice - my God, I was genuinely upset by that video and unsubscribed from the channel after spending about an hour trying to track her "journey" via older videos, and reading various comments on social media and Reddit. I was crushed seeing her like that.
I know, parasocial relationships are bad, yada yada yada, but this one upset me. She was always super nice, and I'd feel weird about posting her channel info here, so I'm not going to. I hope she finds her way back, and I hope the same for Ellen.
There's been quite a sad handful of prior lesbians who TIF'd out who are really engaged in social media like that :/ It's def concerning that they're no doubt influencing others to go the same route
Ellen Page is one woman, you can call her "her."
Yeah, sorry. While I desisted a few years ago, it's still ingrained in me to conform to respecting pronouns in some way, since I still have connections to a TIF and a HSTS TIM... Sigh.
Hopefully being in a safe space like this with helpful reminders from users can help me break that, haha.
All good! No need to apologize and I'm sorry if my comment came across snarky at all. :) I'm glad you're here!
I feel sorry for Ellen in many ways. She had it all; great career, gorgeous wife, money, beauty but she didn’t have her mental health. The drs who should’ve treated her psychosis, self-harm and ED then sent her spiralling down the path of self-destruction. They truly are a set of disgusting fetish crazed butchers who were happy to stick a dish rack in her stomach and call it a day.
I do worry, of course, that lots of young lesbian and bi girls are watching her example and thinking this can be the answer for them but I feel like even with the apologia of Pageboy and the media coverage it is obvious that all of Page’s problems are still there.
It is sad. She was never given the chance to overcome her trauma. And now her body is wrecked. Her marriage is over. And she is very limited in the roles she can play going forward because of the state of her appearance and voice. She is fucked even if she detransitions. And this cannot be helping her already fragile mental health
I see it as similar to what happened to Anna Nicole Smith. She's being surrounded by enablers who benefit from her destruction
Ellen continues to look like a sickly Victorian child wearing their father's clothes. 😂😂😂
Although it feels more like
they'reShe’s straining to sound lower/deeper??
We don’t use made up pronouns here, real sex only. It’s one of the best things about Ovarit, no nonsense language :)
You're right--While I desisted a few years ago, it's still ingrained in me to conform to respecting pronouns in some way, heh...
Hope being in a space like this with helpful reminders like these can help me break that, haha.
Understandable, the brainwashing is strong! Glad you found your way out of the nonsense and back to reality and to Ovarit!
I saw a post on Reddit last night gushing about how wonderful her voice was and how she should do audiobooks because they'd be so relaxing to listen to and it was so performative and cringy that my inner Hermione just said "Excuse me, I have to go vomit"
I'll watch clips and summaries just to know how it ends, but this show was ruined after season 2. Just unbelievable, I really have to stop watching shows live and wait until they're got like 3-4 seasons. The way I'm fucked everytime I try and actually follow a show. It's cursed fr.
Honestly, same.
Looking at you, The Dragon Prince... sigh.
Can't even be GNC without having to fall into the weird pronoun/identity game 🙄
Funny story, I went to college with one of the show's writers and she's been a fujoshi since day one. Not surprised that she's on the queer bandwagon.
I felt like the writing quality of S3 was noticeably worse than S2, and transing Vanya definitely didn't help. It was pretty cringey to me when "Viktor" gets invited to Luther's bachelor party. TBH I am curious about how they resolve some plotlines, but I can see why S4 would be a struggle to get through.
A while back, one of the showrunners got accused of being abusive behind the scenes. One of the complaints against him was that he sent other writers a text when Ellen came out that basically said:
"So Elliot is trans and now we have to completely re-write EVERYTHING we had planned for Vanya's character in, like, a week. OMG Fucking kill me!"
So, yeah, no wonder the writing sucked 🤣
It's so absurdly selfish, right? Like, hey, writers, I know you've spent months if not years working on plans for a female character but ME ME ME, re-do ALL your work and don't you dare fire me, transphobe. Also, I will be now heavily scrutinizing every word you pen for genocide.
I can't imagine how demoralizing it must have felt to be told that you have to throw out your work, re-do it, and be fucking happy too, or else you're committing genocide.
I honestly would not be surprised if someone really texted that opinion lol It's understandable bc trans shit has taken over everything nowadays
It always has to be a plot point and full of affirmations, with characters acting like changing your identity & switching pronouns is normal lol
Ohmygod is this true this is amazing 😂😂😂 I have to find the source of this
I haven’t watched since she became a TiF. Loved the show and I do wanna watch more but it’s just difficult, I loved Vanya. I also liked Ellen. So finding she put herself through gay conversion therapy and basically did the same to her character who is also gay like yikes
It’s also annoying in that the sisterhood between her and Alison was something I really loved. And now she’s her ‘brother’ god they must have had to scrap sooo much, probably had a female love interest planned for her too and everything. The fact they wrote everybody to accept this without question was uncomfortable too.
I’m curious how do they handle her childhood scenes now? Did they make bring the trans even into that?
It’s annoying she had to force the change on her character who many girls loved - Vanya and Alison are the only girls of the siblings. So now Alison is the lone woman like 😭
It was pretty cringey to me when "Viktor" gets invited to Luther's bachelor party.
Probably still better than having her not be invited, and then the whole episode is a struggle session over that decision.
A major factor in why I didn't pursue medical transition is that I'm very similar in stature and features to Ellen Page (not that I really look like her, but we have the same type of bone structure and approximate proportions).
Even in the most serious depths of my dysphoria, I knew that the best transition could achieve would be to make me look like a Dickensian street urchin.
In my opinion one of the more insidious lies of trans activism is the notion that transition is the only "treatment" for dysphoria. Because look, even if we assume for the sake of argument that resembling the opposite sex would be good for dysphoric people (I know but just pretend for a sec), the reality is that a significant percentage of people will never be able to achieve that no matter what drugs or surgery are used. A lot of us have frames or features that will simply never "pass." A lot of us have bodies that cannot be made to fit what our dysphoria demands, because humans are not meat LEGO and we can't just swap bits around until we've got the build we want.
Saying that transition is the only option for dysphoric people is fucked up because, in reality, transition is not an option for a lot of people and you're effectively telling those people that they might as well go die or something.
Wow I could've written this. I have gender dysphoria, and have my whole life. I never wanted to transition though because as someone in touch with reality I knew that I would never pass as male, or even pass as androgynous, so what was the point? My experience with dysphoria is what sent me down the radfem rabbit hole, because I had all the trans people in my life (which there a lot of because I'm very involved in my local LGBT scene) saying transition was my only option. But I always knew that wasn't true, because how do you handle a persistent delusion? You sure as shit don't validate it. I still struggle with dysphoria but I know the source of it now, and it's living in a patriarchy. I wouldn't feel this way if being a woman in this world wasn't so shit, if I wasn't sexualised at every opportunity, and if growing up female hadn't been so traumatic.
I don’t have gender dysphoria, but I have body dysmorphia and I’ve come to realize as well that this is a big reason.
Solidarity.
I think my brain has some kind of tendency toward "body anxiety" (for lack of a better term), which probably would have manifested in some form no matter what. Living in a patriarchal world caused it to manifest as an obsession with the sexed aspects of my body. In a parallel universe without gender, I might have become obsessed with body building, or had an eating disorder or something, but like you I'm pretty sure the only reason I'm fixated on my sexed traits is because of the significance they are given in our sexist world.
I frequently read the detrans subreddit and it's sad to see women (it's usually women there anyways) post about "I'm finally back to looking like a girl!!" And they show their pictures from when they were on T and... they always looked like a girl 😬
Maybe a girl with a faint mustache, or a girl with acne, but yeah. The vast majority of them never looked male.
Yeah see this is my usual point when I'm trying to discuss this with people. Honestly I try to be as empathetic as possible and can fully understand the allure of looking like the opposite sex, I'm not dysphoric but holy crap if I could convincingly boy mode just when walking home alone at night my life would be better. Or not being worried about people's reaction to my body hair etc
But a lot of the people I talk to are the "be kind" crowd, so aside from all that I try to point out that even taking everything they say as truth there's still a lot of unkindness happening.
As you say, even if dysphoria could be fully cured via transition that would only work on people who could pass. It's unkind to tell people who will never pass that one day they could look like what's in their heads when they can't. And then 1000s of dollars and possible surgery complications later they realize that themselves when they look in the mirror. That's brutal, that's cruel, why would you do that rather than help with treatment thats attainable?
I'm glad you had enough presence of mind to realize that for yourself and made it through.
And what about people who have dysphoria and also an unrelated medical condition that makes it impossible for them to pursue medical transition? Like clotting disorders that make cosmetic surgery unacceptably dangerous, or endocrine disorders that preclude taking cross-sex hormones?
Oh right, but if we admit that there might be alternative means of managing dysphoria for those individuals, then we'd have to acknowledge that maybe those alternatives could be options for everyone with dysphoria.
If we admit that there are people for whom medical transition isn't "life-saving," but instead would be immediately life-threatening, then we have to engage with questions about why it is ever "life-saving" and how we can recognize whose lives will be saved by it versus those whose lives would not. That's far too empirical and exclusionary! We might wind up with objective metrics that result in some people not being told what they wanted to hear!
It was this line of thinking that really led me to step back from transgenderism and realize how fucked up it is. Transgenderism is so deeply hateful toward people with dysphoria when you follow the implications of their ideology through.
Trans orgs' own data show that non-passing TIPs fare the worst of all of them.
In my opinion, the vast majority of trans-identified people want to convincingly fool everyone else (most do not "know what they are", although there are some who like broadcasting their transness as a power trip), and many simply won't be able to fool anyone. How does it benefit them to have them medically transition in pursuit of something that will never happen, and, in the absence of passing, makes them extremely mentally unwell even to the point of suicide?
The old practice of doctors denying medical transitioning to those who would never pass was the correct approach; although, they really shouldn't be doing it for anyone.
Exactly. If the idea is that assimilating as a member of the opposite sex will successfully treat dysphoria, then transition should only be considered a treatment option for those patients with a reasonable chance of "passing."
Remember that “bagel baby” video that went viral, some really angry short dude being mad about bagels, I don’t remember, but he got clowned for being short and angry.
My point is if I one day decided to transition even bagel baby would look like Jason momoa next to my tiny ass
IIRC, he wasn't mad about bagels, he was angry that women supposedly don't want short men and, for some reason even he probably doesn't understand, he decided to go off about it in a bagel shop.
And, on that note, very short women who transition would do well to consider how short men are treated. I don't think short men are necessarily destined to being forever alone, but I do think they tend to be treated like they're invisible. (And I wonder if any TIFs desist because they got that treatment once they started passing.)
lol oh yeah, it’s been a minute. I honestly thought the height preference meme was more male delusion but I am actually seeing women say they’re not inclined to date shorter, so I guess it’s a thing. (My one advantage having every man tower over me I guess.) But I also think many TIFs want to be invisible on some level. Just a dude in the crowd.