Reminds me of that person on twitter who complained that terfs are impossible to argue with because "they read books".

How on earth does one handwave away admittedly well-sourced, well-supported, well-crafted arguments as dogshit?

Wouldn't "dogshit" arguments typically be those that - again, admittedly! - "aren't convincing enough" and comprise little more than "trans women are women and they're hecking valid"?


No, it's the terves who are wrong.

[–] spacykate 29 points Edited

They're dogshit because they come to the wrong conclusion. So they just need equally valid and cogent arguments that come to the right conclusion, obviously.

eta - I'm being sarcastic.

They won't find any. These people, like Young Earth Creationists, start with a conclusion, and work backwards; and since their conclusion violates physical reality observable to anyone, anytime, they really have no hope of ever coming up with an argument that will fit the conclusion they want. The fact that there is a conclusion that they want at all, instead of just starting with a question and searching for the answer no matter what it is, is a huge problem. But they don't see it that way. It's fun to watch them flail around and try, though. (lol, I should like an edgy 00s atheist.)

I don't think I've seen a TRA argument that's not based on mind-body dualism. They even rationalize fetishistic transvestism with it, e.g. "euphoria boners are an expression of subconscious womanhood".

This reminds me. It's astonishing how someone like hbomb can put all his faculties into producing a hilarious video about flat earthers and fail utterly when it comes to gender. I mean yes, ideology plays a part and women don't matter to people like him, but intellectual honesty seems only to go so far and it's sad because I used to think he was quite bright.

[–] spacykate 4 points Edited

Sorry, I was being sarcastic. I guess it didn't come through. I've seen a couple of posts like the one posted here, like why do terfs have such good arguments and what are our arguments etc and they can never come up with anything. But the idea that they're wrong never seems to enter their thick skulls.

eta - I should have put the /s on my comment.

This is exactly the underlying situation in the post where the man gets some women to state an opinion on "transwomen" [men] in women's sports and to state their reasons for their opinions and then to discuss what might convince them to change their opinion. And, the junior TRA women just full out state that there is absolutely NOTHING which would help them change their minds. NOTHING.

I read an article elsewhere which discussed why it's so difficult to have actual conversation and debates and it's because universities are the source of a lot of these beliefs and they can force students to conform because otherwise they'll kick them out. Which means that no one is REASONED into any of these beliefs, they're just handed them, complete, and there's no competition or real examination. Then these young people go out in the world and just expect that they can order people to see things from their viewpoint and that's not how anyone who's older than 40 and not in academia or ANYONE who never went to college thinks.

It is exactly the reason why you can have all the diversity in skin color and sex and "gender" and whatever, but when you don't have diversity of THOUGHT and OPINION, it's not really education at all. Most of these young people are just being failed in actually thinking critically. They're spoon-fed beliefs and pretending that they know what they're talking about and they can't handle it when people who can think and argue a point show up and wipe the floor with them.

universities are the source of a lot of these beliefs and they can force students to conform because otherwise they'll kick them out.

I mean, this is completely counter to everything university was about when I went.

[–] BlackCirce [OP] enby jinping 35 points

TRA: some boys are actually girls.
Me: No they aren’t.
TRA: yes they are bc gender is different from sex.
Me: ok then they’re still boys but they like stuff associated w girls.
TRA: it makes them sad when you say they’re boys.
Me: I don’t care.
TRA: if we do a lupron they look like girls. You can’t tell the difference.
Me: looking like something isn’t being that thing. TRA: death threats

Their arguments are so dumb and flimsy there’s really nothing to argue with. 99% of trans is emotional appeals, ad baculum, reasoning backwards from the desired conclusion, lying and 1% is bad research.

[–] [Deleted] 🙉🙊🙈 13 points

For real, they have such a small pool of possible retorts they all take from, I could literally have these conversations with myself by this point.

[–] BlackCirce [OP] enby jinping 17 points

The OP doesn’t seem to realize that the reason why we beat them at arguing is because there’s nothing to argue about. He(?) thinks they need to have a sit down and think out some better arguments but that’s not the problem. There are none.

The best trans argument is that some people are so naturally gender nonconforming and uncomfortable with the gendered norms of society that it’s compassionate to allow them to pretend to be the opposite sex. This is predicated on a few caveats: very few people will do this, pretending to be the opposite sex doesn’t hurt anyone else, and it allows the pretender to have a normal life (education, work, marriage / children, friends). The best, most practical trans argument is failing in all of those cases: the numbers of trans identifying people (especially girls) is exploding, trans is hurting women who are forced to accommodate males in all our sex specific provisions and trans people themselves are becoming more and more associated with deranged behavior, failed relationships and mental illness.

Everything they’ve come up with to support the compassion position: gender identity, sexed brain theory, transhuman sex denialism (eg everyone is changing sex all the time, sex doesn’t exist as a binary, people should be free to change sex at will) is on a fault line. Human brains have been found to be monomorphic, gender identity as a concept is incoherent and unfalsifiable, and sex is a very real, binary and stable feature of most living organisms.

There’s nothing to debate except when should people be allowed to disguise themselves as the opposite sex and how to accommodate disguised sex in a sexist society. They want to argue theory because the practical arguments drag a harsh reality back into view: all trans is, is people pretending to be the opposite (or both or neither) sex.

[–] [Deleted] 🙉🙊🙈 6 points

I am a woman of color (hate the word but, let's go with it), but I could pass as Spanish or Italian or something, especially if I don't get much sun exposure (skin color being an actual spectrum.) I sometimes use a shortening of my name that sounds ethnically ambiguous, I work on my accent, etc. I basically capitalise on looking ambiguous to make more about myself ambiguous/white-passing to navigate a racist world while avoiding some amount of microaggressions. I don't actually lie about my identity, I simply try to make it easy for strangers to make advantageous assumptions (being perceived as a single woman from a poor country can attract less than scrupulous people)

Now that doesn't make me white, that makes me someone who goes around trying not to be perceived as "other", and some people see through it and some people don't and there's nothing I can do about those who see through it; they are right, after all. I bet people did that all the time with sex and gender. Women wearing oversized hoodies to avoid being perceived as female and harassed is something that happens routinely where street harassment is common. There's nothing suspicious about wanting to pass, at least in the direction of privilege. Wanting to pass as what you're not does not make us someone else, nor is it the sign of a super special identity. It's normal. But this movement shows that with enough entitlement and self-centeredness, even something benign can become deeply problematic. I find it almost sad that a lot of women here, myself included, can no longer see cases of men and women dressing ambiguously without feeling deeply suspicious that they might use it to justify a lie. It's the same as women who dislike feminism because of liberal feminism taking the "sex positivity" thing way too far or pretending women are not different from men.

TIL that walking sticks and leaf bugs are literally sticks and leaves

What does 'woman' mean?

Yeah, we have our definition, and we've been patiently awaiting one from your side that isn't circular or just based on flippant, du jour, ever-shifting stereotypes. So by all means, please, tell us what you think a woman is. We're dying to know.

Exactly, we keep asking them over and over and over again, and all they can say is that our definition is wrong, but they NEVER offer one back.

Or they do, and it's long and overly-complicated and rooted in circular logic and fickle sex role stereotypes.

[–] Hollyhock 27 points Edited

Love how he's fishing for arguments because he obviously can't refute the arguments from the crafty Terven. "And I would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for you crafty witches..."

"They actually craft arguments. But those arguments are dogshit"

This is why you all suck at arguing lmfao

Funny how just stating plain facts and truth is now "crafting arguments." Bro, we're just stating the truth.

Guess it must be pretty hard to create "winning arguments" when you have to obfuscate the truth 24/7. You already lost before you even started.

emotional appeals

First, yes. TERFs use them. I find it pretty tragic when women are sexually assaulted in the lowest moments of their lives, like in hospitals, women's shelters, and prisons. It does indeed make me angry that children who can't give consent are being sterilized and medically experimented on. I'm outraged when women are punished at work for acknowledged that biological sex is real and important.

But so do TRAs. This pedophile's feelings will be hurt if you misgender him. TiMs feel excluded when lesbians won't let them fuck them. Your brother will feel invalidated if you stop him from masturbating in your underwear.

I guess there are some emotional appeals I just find more compelling.

[–] spw 18 points Edited

"Right they have actual arguments when we don't. Ok, I'll ̶r̶e̶p̶l̶y̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶s̶e̶ ̶a̶r̶g̶u̶m̶e̶n̶t̶s̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶m̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶e̶l̶o̶q̶u̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶a̶r̶g̶u̶m̶e̶n̶t̶s̶ ask other people to come up with more eloquent arguments cause I can't think of any myself. But clearly, they're still wrong"

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