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MobymaybeOctober 10, 2023
Remember when the US abruptly pulled out of Afghanistan and there was a photo of one of the last planes out…..filled with men. That plane shouldn’t have been allowed entry anywhere. All those men left their wives, mothers, children. Only women and children should have been on it. Make the men deal with the problems they create.
Most of the illegal migrants in the US and Europe are men. If you look at the photos it's insane actually. They are NOT refugees, they are young men. You don't see any diversity in age or sex. Coincidentally we now have even more drugs, rape and random violence in the cities accepting these men.
pennygadgetOctober 10, 2023
It really goes to show that they're dishonest about being desperate refugees. What kind of man leaves his female relatives to rot in a country he claims is to oppressive for him to live in?
Its a marked difference from previous generations of immigrants (who almost always came with their families).
IrishTheFrenchieOctober 10, 2023
I personally think a lot of these young men are the "extras". They come from countries where men take multiple wives, and/or they kill so many female babies/women that there "aren't enough to go around".
So they ship out the extras because males with no hope of ever enslaving, I mean marrying, a woman always turn into violent mobs.
magicianly7October 10, 2023
i saw a woman from algeria mention that they were feeling a lot more peace in her village in the last few years because the excess males have left in such droves.
m0RT_1October 10, 2023
I think in countries where women have no freedom and are unsafe to even walk down the street, the assumption is sending the young man first so he can get work, a place to live, and the financial base to help the rest of the family immigrate later. It is how immigration has worked for a long time. How that all works in practicality now is a different matter, with so many dodgy operators exploiting, grifting, and hiding behind genuine refugees.
I'd love to see Western governments turn the whole process on its head and increase the % of women directly granted refugee status first. It sends the message that women are not goods & belonging to be sent for, and for a family to achieve immigrant status it must be centered around the women's needs. A woman with children is more likely than a teenage man to spend all her time keeping her children safe, and well-fed, getting an education, and becoming part of a community.
pennygadgetOctober 10, 2023
And, most importantly, even if the Muslim women fail to integrate, they're not likely to start stabbing pedestrians or raping teens because they're bored and unemployed
littleowl12October 10, 2023
Something to note- a lot of the men never bring their families over. At least not their wives and children. Often they prioritize parents and brothers first.
AmareldysOctober 10, 2023
Unaccompanied men should not be allowed in.
Of course then you will have men kidnapping women and marrying them or forcing sisters who don’t want to move…
[Deleted]October 10, 2023
Absolutely. No young, healthy, able-bodied man should be admitted as a refugee to anywhere unless he is carrying a baby in his arms and an old woman on his back.
m0RT_1October 10, 2023
Yes exploitation is always a risk for women. Agree many unaccomphanied men end up underemployed trouble makers in many places.
But if you only allow unaccompanied women then they just don’t come because even in countries that bad for them they still love their sons too much
I only have daughters. I bet in Muslim countries there are some women whose only non-minor kids are daughters.
CathyVerattiOctober 10, 2023
I think in countries where women have no freedom and are unsafe to even walk down the street, the assumption is sending the young man first so he can get work, a place to live, and the financial base to help the rest of the family immigrate later. It is how immigration has worked for a long time.
Yes, but these immigrants claim to be refugees. It's an insult to the intelligence and to refugees to claim the label if one is an economic migrant and behaves as such.
A person fleeing war or genocide isn't going to plan for the future, because she may not even have a future. She's just going to grab the kids and run until she reaches the end of the warzone, and then she's going to drop, exhausted, as she did in her millions in the refugee camps which line the borders of Syria to this day.
NoNameOctober 10, 2023
But if I dare say these young men sexually assault and rape the native women, I'm being racist.
SpicyLadyOctober 11, 2023
In berlin, muslim, Arabs, turks are the men who catcall me the most. But if I, an Indian woman, says anything then I am Islamophobic because 1. I am from India 2. I am racist. I tell them again and again, be careful when it comes to men from misogynistic culture, but noooo you gotta be woke and now you have Muhammad ,Rohan etc dming you rape threats and/or stalking you because you weren't careful.
Same here when I am in Rotterdam. It's almost exclusively (young) Morrocan men who catcall and harrass me on the streets, but I'm a white woman so if I dare say this I'm a racist Islamophobe. But we all know this is true.
A few weeks/months ago a huge, huge telegram group got uncovered of thousands of men who leak women's nudes, or trick women and girls into sending them nudes to then leak them and blackmail them. This was a group of Morrocan men mostly, and they primary did this to: 1. Muslim women that, according to them, weren't "modest enough" 2. Other Morrocan women who were no longer muslim, but still weren't modest enough. 3. White women and girls who are all sluts, and easy and need to be punished. 4. Sometimes even their OWN female family members!!
And this included pictures of girls as young as twelve years old. Literal childporn.
When I say thousands, I mean thousands. But despite the fact that the name of this telegram group even referred to their ethnicity and religion, no one dared to speak about this. We all had to pretend like this has nothing to do with it.
Oh, and guess what, the owner of this group, who gave an anonymous interview to a news channel, that showed no remorse and still thought the women deserved this, has not been punished. His identity protected and hidden.
Edit: I do have to say, nearly all Morrocan women I've met have been incredibly sweet and intelligent and hardworking. And this counts for most (not particularly conservative) Muslim women I've met in general. It's very much a male problem, as usual. And I don't doubt that it's women within their own culture that suffer the most from this attitude.
MuggleOctober 11, 2023
It's the same in Australia, most of the boat arrivals are men. They have left their wives and children behind. And look at Afghanistan, all those men who fled and left their women behind, when it was most unsafe for women to stay.
I literally would not birth a baby boy I made myself out of my DNA and the person I trust most in this world. And yet these countries let strange adult men in. Wild
MizunaOctober 10, 2023
I strongly recommend that American women purchase a firearm as soon as possible. If you cannot purchase a firearm, then make a self-defense plan. What happened in Israel this past weekend may very well have been a test run for America. And like what happened in Israel, the government, police, and military will not be there to rescue you.
AmareldysOctober 10, 2023
Who do you think is going to try and take over America, Hamas style?
rightnowOctober 10, 2023
America is more at risk of a civil war than a Hamas style attack.
TriflersNeedNotApplyOctober 11, 2023
I agree but they’ll rape and kill women in that scenario too. I don’t think the OP on the post was suggesting a specific type of attack, more so that males can and will start wars or attack and we will not always be expecting or prepared for it. Rape and torture of women is part of every war so even if it were a civil war in the US that would be pretty fucking horrible for women as well.
VeneficcaOctober 10, 2023
I hear what you're saying. Do I think we'll face an onshore style attack like the festival? No, but individual attacks on women are simple to carry out. It would be a very effective form of terrorism on American soil to go hunting for women alone in high numbers. We could also have our own Rotherham. Anyone who thinks this is paranoia is not paying attention.
Locally, we had some guy who successfully kidnapped almost a dozen women from one neighborhood, drove them to his place, filmed the assaults, then drove them somewhere else to release them. He did this over a span of months and only because one woman got the covering off her eyes enough to see street signs from his backseat, was he identified (and the tapes in his room linked him to some of the other assaults.) When the story broke, it amazed me that it was that easy for him or any man to simply keep taking women for months without it even making the news.
IdentifyAsTiredOctober 10, 2023
It was not "a test run for America" and it's weird and xenophobic for you to imply that any country's mass terrorist attack is just a "test."
Come on.
[Deleted]October 10, 2023
Weirdly I had a similar though not as dramatic experience last night. My neighbour was visiting and the subject turned to war, and she said something like 'people are violent' and I said 'not people', and she said 'what?' and I said 'it's not women who are raping and murdering'. And she just stopped and thought for a few seconds, and I could see that this had literally not dawned on her before.
LasagnaRossaOctober 10, 2023
The power of language ❤️
That's why we need to use the right words to describe reality!
readfreakOctober 10, 2023
It is always men. I have come to the conclusion that men never evolved past the animal stage. And calling them animals is an insult to animals everywhere. They are not civilized at all. I woke up this morning to the news that Hamas beheaded 40 babies. Men are not fit for purpose. They are not like us and we have nothing in common with them. Women don't do this kind of cruelty. They burned people alive.
rightnowOctober 10, 2023
Liberals will cry that it's wrong to separate women from their husbands or adult sons, even though men come in without their wives all the time.
[Deleted]October 10, 2023
For real. How many of those husbands and adult sons are anything but dictators and terrors to their own family anyway?
pennygadgetOctober 10, 2023
For real real. Most women from Islamic countries would be better off in a homeless shelter with their kids in Europe or America than in a house with their husband. At least western countries don't give women the same legal status as cattle
Really good point. I have heard a lot of people say women won't emigrate without their adult male sons and husbands - some because 'they love them so much' but others pointing out that women on their own or with children know they will have less/no access to resources. No idea how to get around either of these two issues.
MiMi2013October 10, 2023
No. But some of those women will happily teach their male children that all non Muslim women are "whores" free for the taking , and they will gladly dream of a Global Caliphate in which they are above" all dhimmi slaves and only below male Muslims. And some Muslim immigrant women have directly aided Muslim men in carrying out terrorist attacks on the 'host populations', in the USA, in Australia, in France, in Germany, and no doubt elsewhere.
I know everyone who suggests bringing in large groups of Muslim women and minor children get upvoted and the contrary stance is therefore unpopular, but....I really do not want any more people brought in who, at least in theory, are required by their religion to believe the rest of the world's population is theirs to convert, enslave, or kill.
littleowl12October 10, 2023
I am very case-by-case basis with bring in Muslim women, with the default being no.
It's sad to see any woman with Handmaid Syndrome, but if a woman has it, she has it. I'm not willing to sacrifice women who don't want to live in a religious patriarchy for women who choose to stay within it because Allah Something Something Jannah.
Any doubt I had cleared up this weekend on Twitter, seeing how many female asylum receivers were cheering on the rape of Shani Louk.
Here's what we were never told: the majority of Muslim refugees are just terrorists who lost to either their governments or other terrorist groups. Even ones that aren't connected to terrorists have terrorist sympathies. We were never told this, and were only told half-truths. "These guys don't support ISIS!" (They just supported some other foul group).
About the kids: kids need their parents, so you can't bring them in without their families. The parents of the Ariana Grande concert bomber were "refugees." Except they weren't. They were terrorists that lost out of to a rival group. Even when the British government found out, they decided to let it go. Maybe they had calmed down, and look, they have a child! That child grew up to bomb a bunch of little girls.
Too many Muslim women are just right wing women that Dworkin described. Just because they are brown or wear a hijab and hang around SJW activists doesn't mean they are not right wing. Many, MANY Pakistani women knew what their husbands/sons/brothers/cousins were doing to British girls in grooming gangs, and obstructed justice. Whatever their reasons for doing it were, they did it.
I want to help these women when they are in danger, but I would rather send aid to them in Muslim countries. They may not be able to stay where they are, but I don't want them coming to the West anymore. I want them to go to Egypt, Jordan, etc. And if the Ummah can't make it work and they don't like having to share their resources after having blown some of them up, they can rethink their culture.
[Deleted]October 10, 2023
I agree.
The number of women who, with glee, joined Daesh / ISIS and fawned over and cheered on the men as they carried out atrocities - participating in them when possible (to name one scenario I read about, the women brutalised and sometimes even murdered enslaved captives) - is a warning that we need to be pragmatic and observe / accept patterns as they are.
A few years ago I watched a documentary about Daesh and the girls / women who had agency to join them.
In it a lady from a South Asian charity for girls / women even said (in a more subdued manner) that it wasn't as simple as them poor sweet innocent flowers being lured into darkness. She said you had to ask what would make these people, despite being shown material clearly showing that extreme cruelty, rape, enslavement, torture and genocide were taking place (Daesh were very happy to boast about it in their recruitment media) - especially affecting other girls and women - think 'Fuck yeah, sign me up for that shit.' Normal people don't think like that - they'd feel revulsion and hatred towards murderous psychopathic behaviour. They'd want to get away and want the culprits gone.
Remember when a young girl from the UK ran away to join ISIS, and then when they tried to come back, because it turned out being a sex slave wasn't so fun after all? Then the woke left cried racism when the UK actually denied her request to come back.
JeSoPazzaOctober 10, 2023
Shamima Begum. She was only 15 when she went off to join ISIS; she married a Dutch man who was fighting for them, and had 3 kids by him, who all died.
I tend to agree that normal 15 year old girls would be turned off by propaganda that boasted of cruelty, violence, and murder. I'm surprised teenage boys weren't seduced by the prospect, though.
rightnowOctober 10, 2023
At 15 she was likely groomed, but I did some research and apparently at 24 she still supports Isis and thinks she did nothing wrong. I'm almost always willing to give minors a second chance, but joining a terrorist group shows a level of immorality and foolishness you're unlikely to outgrow.
[Deleted]October 10, 2023
terventer_magisterOctober 10, 2023
There have been a few girls I read about so unfortunately my memory is hazy.
Are you thinking of Shamima Begum, the lying dead-eyed rat and waste of space who failed all of her children?
Who thought that joining an openly monstrous genocidal warmongering death and rape cult was a fab idea and one which would be wonderful in which to have a family. IIRC in earlier interviews she whined about how her life was hard and she had little to no basic luxuries... when she was happily part of the cult which burned away any semblance of normalcy and functioning infrastructure in various countries. Moron.
She came across to me as an opportunistic mewling coward and a brazen liar who would say anything to avoid accountability when from various accounts, she had influence in Daesh society and was involved in some pretty grotesque stuff. Definitely not the sweet, naive if oblivious maiden she was pretending to be.
spinningintellectOctober 10, 2023
I think bringing in refugees is a good idea, even if there is risk. But you're right, we can't pretend that all women are gentle, harmless daisies who would never exploit kindness for their own gain or political goals.
Regarding the Islamic handmaiden pick me's hoping for a global Caliphate: I'm sure to get flak for this but China had a huge problem with Islamic terrorism so they rounded up the groups involved and went about "reeducation", which I admit sounds terrible but it's certainty better than bombing.
China claims they separated the women from the men and focused education efforts on the women and girls. The west says it was mass genocide but there's no more evidence to support this than the alleged mass genocide of TIPs. China claims the birth rate went down because their intervention liberated Islamic women from male oppression and were no longer being forced into marriages with men.
IggyanaOctober 11, 2023
I've lost many lefty friends for my thoughts on this topic.
I really do not want any more people brought in who, at least in theory, are required by their religion to believe the rest of the world's population is theirs to convert, enslave, or kill.
One of my former friends was a lesbian that changed her fb pfp to a rainbow flag with the outline of a woman in a headcovering on it, and let's just suffice it to say that our ensuing discussion on the matter was not productive. Apparently them being quite up front about their subjugation amd hatred of both women and homosexuals was not enough to sway her.
Tbf I dislike all organized religions, I just think some are worse than others.
You do have a great point, and I'm glad your dad sees it!
I've made a similar point many times to the liberals who complained about how readily Europe took in Ukrainian refugees, as opposed to Syrian/Middle Eastern refugees. They always think the difference is down to racism, but I pointed out that the Ukrainian refugees were almost all women, children and elderly grandparents, while the Syrians were overwhelmingly men "of fighting age," as they say. Who's going to cause more trouble in a new country: moms with kids and grandparents, or young men coming in by themselves?
sicktodeathOctober 10, 2023
I have definitely disagreed with some of Ukraine’s wartime decisions, but the initial decision to ONLY let women and children out of the country while the men stayed back to fight war brilliant.
HyadesOctober 10, 2023
I said the same thing, when the US and allies withdrew from Afghanistan. Feel however you want about the war/withdraw, but if anything they should have prioritized the evacuation of Afghan women who wanted to leave. Take all the women and their children out of the country, and let all the violent religious extremist men kill each other; they'll all be gone in a few years. Same can be applied to this situation.
These are all men's wars and men's crime syndicates
Exactly. Where are all the angry mobs of women dragging men out of their cars and beating them to death (and worse)? And the "not all men" / "mens rights" idiots still maintain their denial and claim women are as violent as men.
flyingteapotOctober 10, 2023
All so many of us want is to have the person we're talking to hear where we are coming from, truly process what we're saying, and give it the consideration it deserves. That it happens so rarely is disappointing. I'm heartened to read this.
And thank you for your great comments on other recent threads. I appreciate you.
[Deleted]October 10, 2023
Oh god, your last sentence made me tear up. What a compassionate thing to say. I was not expecting that at all and that was incredibly touching. I appreciate you, too. <3
And yes totally, you explained it so clearly. The act of truly processing what other people are saying has become so rare—and being actually heard, too.
Same - I've very much enjoyed and appreciated your thoughts and contributions to all the Ovarit posts I've read that you've chipped in to.
camino_medioOctober 10, 2023
I had experiences similar to this with my dad, for instance when I would point out that the gun violence epidemic in the US is a male violence issue during his digressions on mass shootings. He would pause, say "yeah, you're right". I think I had a similar instance years back where he also came back in the discussion to comment on the good point I had made.
He voted Democrat but disagreed heavily with gender ideology. He was 73 when he passed away last month. This thread has hit me hard because it reminded me of the discussions we'd have and when I'd try to push back when I disagreed, he let me speak and didn't attack me or get defensive. I'm glad to hear about your interaction and to be reminded of him in that specific way. We were close even though I struggled with agoraphobia.
salty-tomorrowOctober 10, 2023
Sorry about your dad, hope you’re doing ok ❤️
camino_medioOctober 11, 2023
Thank you so much. I've been swimming in grief this year from multiple losses, my father being the monumental one. But I'm hanging in there and navigating the waves as best I can :)
I really appreciate your kind words!
pennygadgetOctober 10, 2023
Its really heartening that he took what you said to heart instead of crying "NOT ALL MEN!" or implying that Muslim women are somehow an equal threat
My dad isn't a feminist by any means. But he used to say that maybe we should try a woman president to see if they would fuck up less than a male one. 🤣
Wow. If I said that to my conservative dad he’d sputter that male violence is a hoax and woman are just as bad. It’s almost like being conservative itself or even male isn’t the problem…it’s how much personal investment men have in protecting each other
Men I’ve been close with and loved would do the same thing. It’s so sad. Most are lefties.
Literally lost a friendship over this with a dude and his wife. Just by saying that male violence is real they both tripped over themselves to insist that women were jUsT aS bAd.
How can you see this stuff happening in the world, have 3 functioning brain cells, and not put 2+2 together?
bunyipOctober 10, 2023
It's hard to understand why people deny reality, but it's all too common these days.
I have family members that refuse to care much and say that male violence just can't be helped, or defend Team Men by pointing out the difficult jobs men do. But at least they don't deny the fact that men are dangerous, or believe that men can transform into women.
[Deleted]October 10, 2023
jelliknightOctober 10, 2023
we should only accept women and children
7 words. Amazing, isnt it, how powerful the plain truth can be in changing people?
It won't happen because then the Gender Ideologists will either have to admit they know what women are or allow hamas terrorists in wigs and burkas to come too
Especially at his age, great work both of you
It does get harder to change opinion with age. I’m already into cantankerous territory
PhryneOctober 10, 2023
Harder to change opinion with age ~ what has led you to believe this?
This has not been my observation at ALL, at least not with women. First of all I can’t remember the last time I spoke to a woman who wasn’t open to an actual real discussion or exchange of ideas. Secondly the older the more open in my experience.
Same. Just in general women seem curious and eager to learn and grow, while men generally just like to hear themselves talk, or 'win' a conversation.
Carrots90October 10, 2023
My experience with human beings getting set in their ways
And some studies
https://www.zdnet.com/article/why-is-change-so-hard-for-some-people-especially-older-ones/
PhryneOctober 11, 2023
I found that interesting. Thank you. I am ancient-adjacent. With women of around my age or older (I don't put my energy into men), I have found that there are indeed some 'fogies' who go on about the old days, and young people today. Having heard these opinions I then glide on past and mix with the others, who have lived long enough to hear lots of different opinions, and have livelier minds.
Carrots90October 11, 2023
I don’t mean set on the old days, necessarily
Our opinions and sense of self, etc are more set with age.
That is usually a good thing
It’s why I’m glad there was no social media when I was young and dumb (er?)
Of course I can and do learn new things, change my opinions, etc
But I’m not as malleable, impressionable, etc as I was when young
Cults don’t try to convert me. There are people my age who join cults, but it’s less work to just go for a 20 year old
Also part of the reason some abusive men prefer younger women
[Deleted]October 10, 2023
magicianly7October 10, 2023
honestly it is excellent, going to try and spread this more myself when this topic comes up!!
AmareldysOctober 10, 2023
I can see a case for allowing fathers in with their families. Crime tends to be higher, at least in these parts, among the children of refugees than among the adults who fled. Having a father on hand for discipline of young boys can be handy.
I think we should allow women and young children first. Then after a period of time where they get established, those women can apply to sponsor their male spouse if they want to (I suspect once they have freedom over their lives that many will not want to). Then we vet the hell out of them before allowing them in.
Because we all know how fathers are known for spending time and effort raising their kids
AmareldysOctober 10, 2023
We do know that boys with present, nurturing fathers commit less crimes. We would need to know what percentage of fathers are present and nurturing.
We know that married men commit less crime.
So I can see an argument for allowing family men in.
littleowl12October 10, 2023
We know that married men commit less crime.
So I can see an argument for allowing family men in.
The problem with this notion is that we know it to be true for Western culture.
Nearly all of the grooming gangs were married men. Most migrant/refugee rapists are actually married, and they pull out the "I'm a family man" card when they're before a judge. "Please, your honor, my wife and kids NEEEEEEEEED me!"
It's okay to admit that not all cultures are good. Especially highly misogynistic ones where rape is not a real crime.
It's irresponsible to let people in when you have more than enough data to prove that you're going to get higher violent crime. Especially crime against locals.
It's not morally wrong to say "we will send aid to you, but you are not coming here.
It really isn't, and as feminists, I think we should get comfortable saying it. There are many ways to help people in need, and with the technology we have, it's not always necessary to bring them into your own country.
It's not even kind, really. We tell refugees that they don't have to do very much except learn the language. They don't have to change, or even work, really. We'll take care of everything. But then we don't like their behavior, and people start voting to push them back out. It's not a favor in the long run.
I did not know that about the grooming gangs, thanks for that info.
Your last paragraph is so on point. There ARE rules, mores, and manners, and they do need to learn them, and it is cruel not to tell them what they are and leave them guessing.
I used to volunteer at a refugee shelter and I brought my daughter along. One of the little boys hit my kid. No biggie, it was typical small kid scuffle, she didn't even cry.
The Dad, however, was clearly aware of the reputation Muslim have around women in the West, and you could see him panic, and he made a big show of yelling at his kid and hit him (a swat, not a full on beating).
This behaviour is not socially acceptable in most Western countries. But you could see he was TRYING to do the right, socially acceptable thing. He just didn't know.
I firmly believe migrants and refugees should be given a course in how people are expected to behave. From simple things like saying Bonjour to the salesperson, to more complicated ones like how to date and how to navigate the hook-up scene. How to talk to teachers. What is expected of parents.
People are so worried about looking like they don't accept all cultures that they don't give people the tools they need.
And it's ok to say "In some social circles it is like this, in others like that, and in others it might even be different".
littleowl12October 10, 2023
We should never have agreed that criticism of other cultures is bigoted no matter what.
'I firmly believe migrants and refugees should be given a course in how people are expected to behave. From simple things like saying Bonjour to the salesperson, to more complicated ones like how to date and how to navigate the hook-up scene. How to talk to teachers. What is expected of parents.'
HOW TO TREAT WOMEN. ISTR Norway (?) gave a course to male refugees on how to treat women.... But I'm sceptical that it had any effect. As I've mentioned so often, the only thing that changes male behaviour is significant consequences, and men who treat women as pornified objects typically don't face consequences.
You're making a lot of really good points in these comments - thanks for making me think differently about this issue.
[Deleted]October 10, 2023
IrishTheFrenchieOctober 10, 2023
Yes.
It's not WHERE people immigrate from that's the problem, it's that they're MEN.
[Deleted]October 10, 2023
[Deleted]October 10, 2023
My Dad has told me a number of times that his "awakening" happened long before I was born, during the Yorkshire Ripper case, when the feminist response to the police suggestion that women should stay home after dark was "The killer is a man and the victims are women, so why don't you tell men to stay home after dark instead?"
He says that simple turnaround blew his mind and altered his perception of the world forever.
I had never thought of that perspective before in relation to curfews. Yes, absolutely it makes so much more sense for men to be required to stay home after dark in those cases. That way not only do women have the freedom, but it would be so much easier to find the killer as men being out would presumably be under suspicion.