29 comments

areteDecember 20, 2022

Charlotte Perkins Gilman has a lot to say about the perverted sexual selection in humans and man-made "beauty" in her works. For example, in her Our Androcentric Culture, or the Man-Made World (Ch. 3) she writes:

The second answer is that much of what man calls beauty in woman is not human beauty at all, but gross overdevelopment of certain points which appeal to him as a male. The excessive fatness, previously referred to, is a case in point; that being considered beauty in a woman which is in reality an element of weakness, inefficiency and ill-health. The relatively small size of women, deliberately preferred, steadfastly chosen, and so built into the race [i.e., species], is a blow at real human progress in every particular. In our upward journey we should and do grow larger, leaving far behind us our dwarfish progenitors. Yet the male, in his unnatural position as selector, preferring for reasons both practical and sentimental, to have "his woman" smaller than himself, has deliberately striven to lower the standard of size in the race. We used to read in the novels of the last generation, "He was a magnificent specimen of manhood"—"Her golden head reached scarcely to his shoulder"—"She was a fairy creature—the tiniest of her sex." Thus we have mated, and yet expected that by some hocus pocus the boys would all "take after their father," and the girls, their mother. In his efforts to improve the breed of other animals, man has never tried to deliberately cross the large and small and expect to keep up the standard of size.

As a male he is appealed to by the ultra-feminine, and has given small thought to effects on the race. He was not designed to do the selecting. Under his fostering care we have bred a race of women who are physically weak enough to be handed about like invalids; or mentally weak enough to pretend they are—and to like it. We have made women who respond so perfectly to the force which made them, that they attach all their idea of beauty to those characteristics which attract men; sometimes humanly ugly without even knowing it.

https://gutenberg.org/cache/epub/3015/pg3015-images.html

And in Women and Economics (Ch. 2),

When, then, it can be shown that sex-distinction in the human race is so excessive as not only to affect injuriously its own purposes, but to check and pervert the progress of the race, it becomes a matter for most serious consideration. Nothing could be more inevitable, however, under our sexuo-economic relation. By the economic dependence of the human female upon the male, the balance of forces is altered. Natural selection no longer checks the action of sexual selection, but co-operates with it. Where both sexes obtain their food through the same exertions, from the same sources, under the same conditions, both sexes are acted upon alike, and developed alike by their environment. Where the two sexes obtain their food under different conditions, and where that difference consists in one of them being fed by the other, then the feeding sex becomes the environment of the fed. Man, in supporting woman, has become her economic environment. Under natural selection, every creature is modified to its environment, developing perforce the qualities needed to obtain its livelihood under that environment. Man, as the feeder of woman, becomes the strongest modifying force in her economic condition. Under sexual selection the human creature is of course modified to its mate, as with all creatures. When the mate becomes also the master, when economic necessity is added to sex-attraction, we have the two great evolutionary forces acting together to the same end; namely, to develope sex-distinction in the human female. For, in her position of economic dependence in the sex-relation, sex-distinction is with her not only a means of attracting a mate, as with all creatures, but a means of getting her livelihood, as is the case with no other creature under heaven. Because of the economic dependence of the human female on her mate, she is modified to sex to an excessive degree. This excessive modification she transmits to her children; and so is steadily implanted in the human constitution the morbid tendency to excess in this relation, which has acted so universally upon us in all ages, in spite of our best efforts to restrain it. It is not the normal sex-tendency, common to all creatures, but an abnormal sex-tendency, produced and maintained by the abnormal economic relation which makes one sex get its living from the other by the exercise of sex-functions. This is the immediate effect upon individuals of the peculiar sexuo-economic relation which obtains among us.

https://gutenberg.org/cache/epub/57913/pg57913-images.html

drdeeisbackKabbalist BarbieDecember 20, 2022

'Thus we have mated, and yet expected that by some hocus pocus the boys would all "take after their father," and the girls, their mother. In his efforts to improve the breed of other animals, man has never tried to deliberately cross the large and small and expect to keep up the standard of size.'

I've actually always wondered about this--not just size, but other physical traits that are 'oppositely-desirable' in men and women. But my attempts to ask actual experts in evolution and genetics have been shouted down, so I don't know how this works in reality.

SweetsummerchildDecember 20, 2022(Edited December 20, 2022)

Yep. Also I find it illogical how your average bloke is obsessed with signalling how much he loves the female body and how much of a macho heterosexual womanizer he is but in reality they express repulsion towards natural female bodies. They are only attracted to women who modified their female bodies in a way that it looks less female and more artificial (labiaplasty because men think labia minora are ugly, plastic breast implants because they think normal female breasts are not simulating enough, tons of make up, hair removal, and other cosmetics because they don't find female features attractive enough in their natural state. Another example is people claiming short haired or bald women are automatically ugly. However if a person's face is attractive it will obviously remain attractive even if there's not much hair to frame it... Plus in my experience women's attractive facial features are often even more prominent when they have very short hair. While men almost always look improved with long hair because their faces are usually plain or ugly. Sorry I don't know how much sense that makes...

mybloodapprovesDecember 20, 2022

That totally makes sense. Reminds me of how I’ve always had a “thing” for good-looking bald (like, head shaved) guys, ever since I was young, even though I never even dated one. Eventually I figured out it’s because only men with truly nice faces can get away with zero head hair and still look handsome.

HessaHeinDecember 20, 2022

I've always thought that femininity was a form/collection of class signals, that has mutated into being assumed as natural. Only a wealthy woman would have the time and effort necessary to keep up with trends, to mold her body and features to whatever is popular at the time. Look at the hair, it's very high maintenance. Think about how much money it takes to regularly dye and style that hair, think about the tools and products.

I was born into a working class family, and I've tried in the past to conform, because I'm very well aware of the social benefits of following a social script and conforming. That's what I think when I see this.

notsofreshfeelingDecember 20, 2022

I both agree and disagree with this. The woman on the right who has removed her body hair is exaggerating a difference between women and men. The great majority of women produce finer body hair than men do; it's lighter and less visible. So, removing it entirely enhances this difference and signals in the direction of "female." Heterosexual men can be aroused by an exaggeration of this difference, simply because they are using a brain hardwired to detect this difference for mating purposes. In other words, some of the lizard brain is involved and it's the lizard brain reacting rather than necessarily a "fetish."

Similarly, in catering to the male gaze by emphasizing these male/female differences, women may be using their lizard brain as well, propelled by the urge to attract a male in order to mate and reproduce. It isn't necessarily all patriarchy and oppression.

But I do agree that within the context of male supremacy/patriarchy, normal male/female mating strategies can get mutated and warped into something quite nightmarish.

LilithDecember 20, 2022

I had a disturbing thought occur to me when I was thinking about how female beauty standards happen. Because I have both heard it said that men develop a preference for the appearance of prostitutes over regular appearing women and thus trends in prostitution have fueled male preferences and then what they market to other women and seen this in action. Like it is said that historically, prostitutes started the trend of wearing makeup. Pornography (filmed prostitution), popularized shaving and even surgical modification of the vulva, and it also popularized harmful trends in sex like anal.

What really strikes me though: the average age women begin prostitution starts very young. If that's true there are a lot more pedophiles than we want to admit as a society and that's impacting our beauty trends, too. And its not hard to recognize the trends that can give adult women an illusion of appearing even younger (thin obsession,tiny noses, and yes, hairlessness) or acting younger (little girl culture). Yes, women have less hair than men. But women also have more hair than children. Women are also smaller than men, but they are bigger and especially have more body fat than children. I highly suspect these trends are connected to child sex trafficking.. and not to exaggerated features. Pedophilia has always existed but these trends never existed before mass media and pedophilia is significantly more common among the elites who manipulate mass media (they have greater access and are more shielded from legal sanctions).

[Deleted]December 20, 2022

I see this too. Yes some of it is ... I forget the expression but basically a supernatural stimulus. Like some bugs will mate with shiny stones instead of their own females because whatever signals sexy to these bugs is even more pronounced in the lifeless stone.

But most of it is pedophilia. Hairlessness especially on the genitals. Cutting off your labia and reducing the clitoral hood makes you look like a prepubescent child. The absolute obsession with tiny childlike button noses (this really destroyed me as a kid. Fuck all the "representation" of every stupid gender bla, where have we EVER seen women with women's noses instead of child noses? Animation is especially evil in that regard). Clear skin like children. Tiny and slim everything like children. It's sickening.

drdeeisbackKabbalist BarbieDecember 20, 2022

I remember reading years ago that American men who'd served in Europe in WWI brought back a desire for women to be shaved, because the prostitutes they encountered there shaved to reduce lice infestations.

I think what's going on here is this (I don't actually recommend the book, it's not as good as it could be, but the concept is important):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernormal_Stimuli

notsofreshfeelingDecember 20, 2022(Edited December 20, 2022)

I like this analysis. I almost went there with the differences between adult and child body hair, but didn't want to overcomplicate things. Yes, I agree that there is certainly an element of appealing to what attracts males, and what attracts males is--quite often--children.

Edit: Case in point, the fellow who was recently outed for defending pedophiles in his academic papers and speaking at a pro-pedophilia event before working for Mermaids. I can't think of his name now, but some kind of collage he'd created of himself was going around on Twitter, where he was looking very childlike (with an enlarged head in relation to his body, which had been made smaller) and very smooth for an adult man. He was clearly attempting to sexualize himself with a pedophilic mindset. "Twinks" are eroticized among gay men for having baby faces with no facial hair, slight "late-blooming" bodies, etc. And, of course, we have all sorts of female dress aimed at titillating this desire in men, such as schoolgirl uniforms for adult women.

[Deleted]December 20, 2022

Like it is said that historically, prostitutes started the trend of wearing makeup.

When, in what societies? That’s going to vary a lot, isn’t it? Like makeup was the norm for both sexes in Ancient Egypt, for example.

NovemberinthechairDecember 20, 2022

Yeah. And men wore powered wigs and heels, rogue... and so on. I thought the hairless thing was a marketing campaign for razor use. In time, pornsick men glorified prepubescent traits...but....this subject would take a legion of researchers that could fill volumes.

[Deleted]December 20, 2022

Yes, there’s just too much variation in what beauty norms applied even in one society across centuries, or in different societies at the same time, to categorise something that broadly.

I had an eye rolling laugh at a supposed fashion researcher today. I was reading an old BBC history magazine and this article was talking about how the Georgians were the first to make a big thing of men’s legs above knee height. Like … hadn’t this alleged researcher ever seen how short late 16th century trunk hose were? Or more, how extremely revealing the waist-length doublet and waist-high hose of the late 15th century could be? Oy.

NovemberinthechairDecember 20, 2022

Yes. Then we could go on and on about the toga in the ancient Mediterranean. It's such an extensive subject.

[Deleted]December 20, 2022

Yes indeed!

LilithDecember 20, 2022

Good question. I am definitely speaking more recently than that. Just in context that's clear enough. The transition from makeup being seen as something for prostitutes to being redeemed socially and used by all women did happen with the advent of film. Certainly in America and very probably in England and western Europe, where film was simultaneously being adopted. This was a recent shift. The older shift from makeup use changing from something respectable to becoming in disrepute is much, much older but I can't find much information on that. It seems to have to do with the rise of Christianity.

[Deleted]December 20, 2022

But makeup has always been used generally much longer than that even in western society. Look at the eighteenth century, where it was the norm for both sexes. It was even used, but more subtly, by women in the nineteenth century.

[Deleted]December 21, 2022

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danaseilhanDecember 20, 2022

The original definition of "feminine" was "pertaining to the female."

Female people have body hair.

The end.

notsofreshfeelingDecember 20, 2022

Women and girls have body hair, but the post is an analysis re: removal of body hair and how it makes a woman more "masculine." Men also have body hair, and more of it. So, I am taking issue with the analysis, although I get that it is referring to women catering to the male gaze. They are catering to the male gaze by emphasizing the female physical characteristic of having relatively less body hair. So, you could say they are playing up/exaggerating sex differences, and catering to what heterosexual males find attractive in females which is relatively less body hair.

Undercover_FeministDecember 20, 2022

I've always hated how the radfem definition of feminine allowed men to take away something that belongs to women. Based on that, it's not surprising that they think they could take "woman" away from us as well.

PhileremonDecember 20, 2022

Yes! Susan Brownmiller goes into this in "Femininity" and I high recommend it to everyone here.

velvetpawsBig timeDecember 20, 2022

This reminded me of something fascinating I read in Heather Heying and Bret Weinstein's book, A Hunter-Gather's Guide to the 21st Century:

The moose’s antlers, and the fights that they have, and the fact of female choice—these are all sexually selected characters. The egg incubation behavior of male American jacanas—this, too, is sexually selected. The radically different size of male and female elephant seals, the fact that only male frogs call, and the fact that from peacocks to quetzals to mallards, males have far showier plumage than females—all sexual selection.

In no other species of primate do breasts persist when there are no babies around to benefit. Human breasts are sexually selected, and they are doing more than feeding babies. They are also advertisements to men—just as a lyrebird’s song and a rutting boar’s smell and a red-capped manakin’s dance are advertisements to the females of those species.

What else is sexually selected in humans? Flowers on her birthday. Neckties. Fast cars. Makeup and heels and jewelry. Indeed, the physical ornamentation of women—including not just makeup and heels and jewelry, but also breasts that stay enlarged throughout our reproductive cycles—is an indicator of partial sex-role reversal in humans.

What does that mean? Whereas most animal species exhibit male-male competition and female choice of mates, a species with partial sex-role reversal, such as we have, will also show competition between females and male choice of mates. This can manifest as anything from women advertising to attract the attention of men to outright brawls between women. Men, not coincidentally, will also be more likely to be in a position to choose their partners.

LunarWolf [OP]December 20, 2022

Wait, so are they saying that women who wear makeup heels and jewelry are more likely to have children, or more children than women who do not wear such things? Is there evidence of that? Because sexual selection works as an evolutionary force by successfully passing certain traits and behaviors down to the most members of the next generation.

areteDecember 20, 2022

What else is sexually selected in humans? Flowers on her birthday. Neckties.

Seems like men with more "sexually selected" characteristics are more likely to be gay.

CaeruleaDecember 21, 2022

Flowers and neckties are just some cute examples. Expand the example to other traits. Aggressiveness in males for example could possibly be sexually selected for; not neccessarily because it makes women interested in them, but because it can lead to offspring.

[Deleted]December 20, 2022

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LunarWolf [OP]December 20, 2022

men out here looking like unwashed socks

LOL

But I agree, the longer I go without makeup, the more clownish and strange it looks.

[Deleted]December 20, 2022

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