Thinking today about Dear Sugar's "The Truth That Lives There": https://therumpus.net/2011/06/24/dear-sugar-the-rumpus-advice-column-77-the-truth-that-lives-there/ while trying my hardest to explain to my Nigel why he doesn't understand my lived experiences with radical feminism. I'm thinking about whether or not this marriage is sustainable.
What made you leave your Nigel? Is wanting to leave really enough?
EDIT: whoa I think I actually got through to him. He's getting started on my reading list and has fully apologized for the dangerous person he allowed into our lives and finally opened up about realizing that this man sexually assaulted him. I think it took him a long time to admit it because this was a childhood friend and my husband never experienced sexual violence until this, so having to come to terms with the fact that this person did it as an actual act of violence is really hard for him. My heart breaks for him but I'm glad that he's listening!!
Mr Patience can never understand my lived experience and during the busy years of our lives he wasn't as receptive to considering it. He did read "Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack" (link at the end) in our early years. Because I asked him to. It took a while for him to really take it in but he didn't blow me off.
Mr Patience has had a ringside seat to how my professional experiences differed from his own as we were both small business owners in a traditional male field. He was often shocked when he saw blatant discrimination and misogyny directed at me by male business owners and customers and yet still could not (or would not) necessarily see or hear me when I spoke of what I now know to be my radical feminist views.
I have found him frustrating and obstinate, willfully ignorant at times over the years. And I have wanted to leave. Felt alone and unheard.
I stayed because in the balance ledger, hand written in columns of for and against, the good heavily outweighed the bad.
Now we are older and he is reading "Emotional Labor, the Metafilter Thread Condensed". (Link at the end). Because I asked him to. I expect it will take him a while to really make progress with it in how he relates to me but already he is seeing and hearing me more clearly. He is even bringing it up, seeing it and saying so. Trying to do his share.
This to me is as good as it gets. It does not mean I would never leave Mr Patience. It means we have negotiated deals that work for us and he is honoring them to the best of his ability - while continuing to work to better his ability and I will not leave him so long as he does so.
That is my deal. Being my partner means pulling your share of the load over time. I expect Mr Patience to continue to strive and work and keep doing better - exactly as I expect of myself.
We actually negotiated our terms before we married and I drive a hard bargain. The biggest non-negotiable was and is that I will do what he asks and he agreed to do what I ask. Cheerfully and with real effort. It has been necessary to remind Mr Patience of this sometimes over the years and never back down on it but that is just how it is dealing with men. He has stepped up and pulled his share with goodwill if not always enthusiasm when reminded and keeps doing better. I am inclined to be a little generous as I am certainly not perfect myself and have needed reminded occasionally too.
Marriage is about teamwork in the end. Staying with it pays huge rewards provided both are good teammates. Feelings alone do not make for sound decisions I think. Love for me is how we behave and treat each other. A thing we can choose to build together, rather than something we fall into like a mud puddle.
Have you defined the terms clearly for your relationship? What does your balance ledger look like? Can you discuss these with your Nigel and have a positive outcome?
I read the advice column you shared. It was really interesting, something to think on, thank you! I may give it to Mr. Patience to read at some point and ask what he thinks.
Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack
https://www.nationalseedproject.org/key-seed-texts/white-privilege-unpacking-the-invisible-knapsack
Emotional labor, the Metafilter Thread Condensed. Tuff_Terfies shared this in the Book Club thread for "Why does he do that" which I may read with Mr Patience next, I think it will help him verbalize things he has seen and experienced in our shared years. The background it gives on male socialization and behaviors maybe should be required reading for males.
I want to add to this concept of the ledger. Instead of weighing the good he does versus the bad he does, weigh the pros and cons of being with him against the pros and cons of being without him. And don’t give special weight to intangible things like “my heart would be sad.” Focus on the concrete. And pay attention to “weird coincidences” like if you’ve been sick a lot since you guys got together or anything like that. The body knows.
Absolutely yes to "weigh the pros and cons of being without him" My alone was better than most relationships I have seen. I loved being alone and free! It has to be a lot better than that to be worth the trouble!
Thank you thank you <3 I know he wants to understand, but unfortunately he's too used to considering himself as the Most Logical Man to be able to understand when he's being truly misogynistic. I know my views have cost him his closest friendship with an extremely misogynistic man, and I'm grateful for him to holding his ground on that front, but I don't know how to get through to him that he still has a LOT to learn.
I’d say it depends on how long you’ve been together and how long you’ve had feminist views. My Nigel got with the program with some amount of whining within about a year. Bear in mind I was a conservative type when we met.
Now, we’ll never be able to have a fully intimate relationship in that we can truly discuss these things because there will always be a personal element for him. Which does suck a lot. But that’s what the internet is for. A romantic partner doesn’t have to be everything to you, and he does his part in my life very well.
I think I actually got through to him. He's getting started on my reading list and has fully apologized for the dangerous person he allowed into our lives and finally opened up about realizing that this man sexually assaulted him. I think it took him a long time to admit it because this was a childhood friend and my husband never experienced sexual violence until this, so having to come to terms with the fact that this person did it as an actual act of violence is really hard for him. My heart breaks for him but I'm glad that he's listening!!
Wanting to leave is enough.
If you want to leave and you don't, you will come to have resentment and eventually you will have enough resentment that the resentment itself makes you want to leave and you may even forget the original reason that you wanted to leave but it will still be there unresolved.
If you have begun to examine your life and the man you have chosen to spend your time with is not examining his life or yours, that is a most excellent reason to leave. An unexamined life is not worth living. Once you have examined your own experiences and taken them apart into the pieces that made them happen, you will never assemble it back into the same person you used to be. If you find yourself examining life from a feminist perspective and you are no longer the same, which seems reasonable, you should cut yourself some slack about decisions you made or commitments you took on before you had this understanding.
A man, even the best of them, can never understand the things you are working out and realizing. If you hesitate to leave, what you should consider is whether or not you are willing to spend your time with someone who will not ever be able to understand what you understand. If you can accept that, under what conditions would that be acceptable.
I hope the ancestors are with you on this difficult journey and I will give an advice from me personally...
Sometimes the journey is the destination. Make decisions quickly but always be willing to adjust. We do ourselves a disservice when we don't trust our intuition.
"If you have begun to examine your life and the man you have chosen to spend your time with is not examining his life or yours, that is a most excellent reason to leave"
This x
Slightly different perspective here. I have always been an examiner and Nigel has always not been an examiner. It’s a personality thing and each of us has always been that way and probably always will. In our case, I examine maybe too much when I should be taking action, while he would probably never examine anything on his own even if it’s really causing issues. So we balance each other out and our team is useful in that regard.
Yes my husband and I are both examiners I think. He grew up in a fundamentalist Christian cult and his primary interest is combating alt-right misinformation and fascism. I think it's also good for me to have someone like him in my life because he has like a more mainstream leftist perspective while I've been a dedicated radfem for about 10 years now. The hardest thing up until now was him not taking my concerns seriously when I was like "the misogynist that you're friends with is dangerous"--which he has since realized and apologized for and now we're trying to work through that trauma. I feel like we understand each other a lot better after our conversation yesterday... now our biggest disagreement is women's sports, which frankly neither of us have any voice in anyway because we're not involved in sports LOL
I am so sorry you are going through this. It must be really difficult. It is completely valid to not have to explain yourself. If he is willing to read some books, (your name here is Dworkin, after all), and he wants to save the marriage, then he needs to do the work/read the books to start. If not, he is not willing to work on the marriage and the decision is made for you.
My actual ultimatum to him today was that he either read Right Wing Women or I walk. He's reading it rn. I feel like I have a long road ahead of me.
So I’m behind… can anyone tell me what a Nigel is? I am about to google too but I really thought one poster here had an ex husband named Nigel but now I see you saying “your” so I know I am wrong.. lol.
Nice Guy Everyone Likes. A bit of a tongue in cheek way of women acknowledging a man’s flaws and the fact that they see him as an exception - not like the other men! Except he usually is.
Thank you for the explanation. I've always hated that term but now it makes sense.
I didn't leave my ex over politics or feminism, but it included different ideas about how we interacted and what we wanted out of the marriage.
In large part, I left because he failed me, and he didn't respect my autonomy and personhood enough to accept that I always could leave.
From the beginning of our relationship, I always said I would hit the exit button if things didn't work for me. He never accepted that. Once we were married he thought it meant we COULD NOT break up. So he would never leave despite how much it might not be working for him.
He decided he wanted kids and I was always adamant I didn't. When it came up again that I said "no" loudly enough for him to hear, he said it should have been a decision we made together! This pattern of not believing/accepting me when I said something that he disagreed with was so frequent... Like microaggressions, small but often. It wasn't usually on obvious factual things, but more on feminist things, and on my own thoughts for myself.
He made me the solution to his problems. He would always say "I'll do it" and didn't. I had to do things for them to get done.
He didn't take care of his health. He didn't go to the gym or the doctor or the dentist. He complained about his body but wouldn't fix anything, he just wanted me to emotionally fix it for him. He developed a drinking problem and didn't care to fix it.
The very last straw was when he drank half a handle of vodka the night before we were to leave on a trip that was supposed to be MY trip that he wheedled himself into...that was his 40th birthday. I saw my future in front of me and I wanted no more part of it. I deserved better than that. I deserved someone who wouldn't drink themselves to death. I deserved an equal partner in our relationship and home. I deserved someone who would take care of themselves because they wanted a long future with me. I deserved someone who accepted my ideas for myself. So I left.
How the hell I found my Nigel now, I do not know. When we started dating I was still going through my divorce, so he KNEW I would walk away. I was in IDGAF mode and was very blunt about what I would or would not accept. I called him out on bullshit that wasn't acceptable. I told him when he needed to step up, and he always has. It took quite a few years before I felt comfortable with the idea of getting married (I certainly didn't want to when we started dating). But through communication and both putting in the work, and continued negotiation of what we need, I am happy and satisfied. I hope to hell it stays this way, and I will try. It doesn't mean we don't have bumps, but it means being committed to each other FIRST. If it ends up failing, I will leave, and knowing that I will do that, and have structured our assets (including a prenup) to allow that is comforting. I am here because I want to be here, and he is here because he wants to be here.
Edit: I remember when my Nigel and I went grocery shopping when we first started dating. I was nervous the whole time, and I didn't even realize it. I wanted a particular food item and I asked him if it was okay, afraid he would say no. My ex would argue with me over the type of cracker we would buy... A $4 box. My Nigel said something like "why are you asking me? You want it, you get it" and it was a lightbulb moment. I was so fucking cowed by my ex's microaggressions and I hadn't even realized most of it.
Yes to all of this! I married my Nigel when I was freshly 18 to escape my abusive family. I didn't have a choice then, but I do now, and I want to make sure I'm always standing up for my autonomy etc.