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DiscussionChappell Roan and Stan Culture
Hey everyone,
Hope this is the right circle but didn't see one for music and I wanted to see if anyone else on here has seen the post made my Chappell Roan about fan behavior.
I'll link it here.
All the discussion around it has been in distinctly lib fem spaces ie Reddit, so was curious about what other Gender Critical Woman think. In many ways I admire her for setting boundaries, stan culture has truly grown so unhinged and scary. On the other hand I don't know if it's truly possible to be famous and not have people recognize you/want to interact. I did also see some discussion that she shouldn't have highlighted her experience as a woman or used that language since male celebrities also get harassed (rolls eyes), which did irritate me.
I would consider myself a casual fan of her music, I listen to some songs but don't follow her closely or interact in her "fandom." I have some reservations about her that were highlighted in another discussion here on Ovarit, but overall I am rooting for any young woman trying to make it in such an intense and often toxic industry.
Then men make fun of us for spending a lot of money on haircuts. Why are you shaming us for problems YOU created?
I started cutting my own hair during the pandemic and haven't looked back. Besides the cost aspect, I haven't found a single stylist who can cut curly hair worth a damn, so I would spend $60 and walk out feeling unhappy. I figured if I'm going to look janky, I can do it to myself for free.
omg the curly cuts in my area are 300+ it's absurd. Ive avoided cutting my hair for like 2 years until I found a stylist that only charged me $90 and I was so appreciative because 90 is the avg price for a woman's (straight) haircut in all the areas I've lived in. that's not including tips too. I would try to cut my hair myself but I have an insane amount of hair that's extremely coarse and it would feel impossible lol. sometimes I feel bad for the stylist bc I have so much hair and my haircuts usually take like 5 hours lol, so sometimes the price seems justified since it is kind of physically taxing but idk.
Us curly people get the shaft! Like 300? I wouldn't pay that even if I was getting ready to walk the red carpet at the Oscars! And you are a trooper to sit for 5 hours, I would be so touched out by then!
If you go on Youtube, I use a combo of the "beard method" and then the "unicorn cut". The beard method takes off the length and I find the shape the unicorn cut gives is pretty nice with that v-shape in the back and the face framing layers. The caveats I'll use are that 1) since my hair is curly, it's more forgiving if you mess up, but if you straighten your hair at all it may look uneven. 2) I work from home so I don't care as much if my hair looks a little crazy. 3) my hair texture is fairly soft and curl patterns are weird (I've got everything from 2c to 3c and everything in between going on). But the tradeoff of being able to walk in my bathroom and do a cut in a few minutes makes it worth it to me!
we really do! oh I 100% get touched out lol, I usually schedule my hair appointments as my only obligation for the day. and my hair does look janky anyway, but not because of the cut, it's cause my hair takes really long to dry so my hair is still damp when I leave and gets ruined by the weather lol.
I'm glad you found something that works for you though! one more thing you don't have to spend money on!
My stylist charges an hourly rate no matter the service, no matter the customer. So, no she doesn't discriminate. But it would be legal to in my country because we haven't ratified the ERA.
OMG that's the best idea ever! I'm going to search for the keywords "hourly rate"!
Well, it did make sense when most men's hair was short and electric hair clippers were used for much of the hair, while women's were meticulously cut and styled with scissors.
Now, styles are all over the place, so the pricing seems particularly unfair.
When I had short hair I used to go to a woman barber and she was awesome. She'd give me a great haircut, brush off the back of my neck with powder to get the hair off, then give me a little shoulder rub, all for about half the price of a women's haircut.
I dated a very gifted hairstylist for a few years. She was a color specialist, and her clients were mostly wealthy older women. At one point she decided to get a Master's in geriatric social work with a focus on the LGBT community. I warned her that pay for social workers is terrible, but she got the degree anyway. She was shocked... SHOCKED that the best entry level job she could find only paid around 30 grand, when she was making 6 figures doing hair.
So now she's still doing hair, and does activism for older folks on the side.
I have shoulder length hair now, but my neighbor cuts it for me. I pay her by making a nice dinner.
I just looked at my salon's website. A woman's haircut is $60 at my salon. Men's is $55. Why? They are both 75 minute appointments.
I don't think they're legally allowed to discriminate based on sex. They can charge by hair length or by how complex the haircut is, but not by sex.
I would just order the men's version of the haircut for $55. I don't think they would challenge you on it. You have the right to purchase any service that they sell.
On the other hand, it might not be worth it. They might see you as confrontational, and take less care with your haircut. Or they might think you're into gender woo, and are pretending to be a man. But if you want the cheaper option, you should be able to get it.
I see other comments mentioning the pink tax. Yes it's frustrating that businesses do that, but you do have the option of not paying it. Just don't buy the pink version, don't buy the version marketed specfifically towards women. Buy the default product (even if it is marketed as a men's version) and save your money.
I'm not sure what to do. I only really found out as a result of this thread. I knew everything was listed on their website, color, hair extensions, bang trim, but remembered that I ordered a women's haircut. So I realized they were probably discriminating otherwise it would just read "haircut".
My mom's a hairdresser so I personally have never experienced this issue (being a daughter, niece, cousin, and granddaughter of a family of blue collar skilled workers has its perks). I'll have to ask her what she charges and her reasoning if there is discrepancies. But I think it possibly comes down to market value - men don't care to look like they're a part of society, they would gladly look homeless (and many of them do look homeless) if it meant not spending money. My mom has to literally beg the men in my family to give them FREE haircuts because she can't stand how homeless they look. I can't imagine any man I know to pay more than $20 for a haircut, and most of the men I know related to me need to essentially be bribed by my mother to get a haircut.
Women will pay a lot of money for a good hairdresser. My mom is well established and she has some stinkin rich clients that give her huge tips (some of my presents as a child are literally just gifts she got from her rich clients). I know she has some rich male clients as well who care about their appearance.
I’m in the UK, so tipping isn’t a must the way it is in the US.
I adore my hairdressers so much I tip in cash, large amounts. And I turn up with Starbucks/costa’s for us.
Both the hair dressers I’ll use at my hair salon are great with my girls (who have autism) and do my hair exactly how I tell them to.
That’s worth paying more imho. I guess it feeds into women being charged more, but it’s also women I’m paying more to, so I figure it’s worth it.
My mom is one of those types of women who can just befriend literally anyone. I'm the opposite and I hate talking so it always drove me up the wall when she would make friends with the cashier when I just wanted to go home. I think women (and some more well-groomed men) really do appreciate a good hairdresser who listens and is an actual pleasure to be around.
OMG yes, I know these men that need convincing to get even a free haircut, they would rather continue looking homeless... It's insane.
This is a good point, that women are much more likely to see having a good hairdresser as important. I don't get professional haircuts anymore, but my mother does and she has her preferred hairdresser at the salon where she's been going for years.
One of my friends who is a man just goes wherever has a good price and is convenient, and has had varying results in terms of how the haircut turns out each time. Then another man I know cuts his hair by himself with clippers, but prior to that he just went to the barber that was closest.
I'm not a professional hairdresser lol but I've offered to save my friends some money and cut their hair for free, because I would gladly get a free haircut from an untrained friend*, but no one has taken me up on it yet. If I were to charge, I'd probably try to price somewhat based on complexity of the haircut. Freshening up an undercut is quicker and simpler than cutting layers in long hair.
*well, at least certain friends, maybe not all of them lol
I've had either a pixie cut or an undercut for almost two decades and so I've become the go-to "short hair consultant" for my female coworkers who are thinking of making the chop, particularly regarding haircut frequency and pricing. I always tell them to either go to a cosmetology school or a woman-friendly barbershop. I feel your pain, it's bullshit.
Thank you! This has bothered me for years! (Basically since I grew old enough to pay for my own haircut and thus noticed the prices) I've heard some people trying to justify it with the argument that women's hair products are more expensive. But first of all, that doesn't seem to be the reason for this price difference. Even if I don't want any hair products, I still pay more than double the men's price for simply having my hair ends trimmed. And second of all, if that's the case, how's that not just more discrimination??
I have simply stopped seing a hairdresser. I don't care enough about how my hair looks to pay such an outrageous price. I've cut my own bangs (is that the hair in front?) for years, but now I also cut the rest of my hair with a bit of help from friends or family. It grew very long and started to be problematic, so I took a pair of scissors, grabbed my hair and cut it off... It was anything but straight 😂 and for about a week I had fun seing how shocked others were when they noticed. Then a friend helped me cut it straight.
I know if we all drop hairdressers it means some people (often a woman) lose an income, but it's on them to fix it.
Exactly! I don't want any products, I could wash my hair with hand soap and it would be fine. Or it would grow out fast enough anyway so I don't care.
And on the other side, metalhead men with long lush hair that require more care are charged the men's price.
Yessss! I dated a metalhead guy with longer hair than me for a long time. His haircuts cost less than a third of mine, and the barber would do it. Meanwhile for me it's a minimum of US$50. I've just stopped cutting it. It's now very, very long but ties up to stay out of the way nicely. I keep it braided 100% of the time and get to spend my money on snacks and knitting, just as nature intended.
and get to spend my money on snacks and knitting, just as nature intended.
I think we are soulmates!
I've just stopped cutting it. It's now very, very long but ties up to stay out of the way nicely. I keep it braided 100% of the time and get to spend my money on snacks and knitting, just as nature intended.
I had to look up haircut pricing at the cheap haircut place I used to go to, because I also stopped getting professional haircuts and just occasionally trim mine by myself or ask a friend/family member to assist, for the price of some hair scissors which were no more than $10.
It's $26 for a standard haircut (including washing your hair) which is implied to be a women's haircut, because later there's a separate price for a buzz cut using a single guard on the clippers, which is $20 but does not include washing your hair. It doesn't appear to specify online what the price would be for a more complex "men's" haircut using clippers but multiple sizes of guards.
There, I'm assuming a man with long hair would be charged the standard haircut price because his hair wouldn't be cut with clippers.
I have an undercut as well. For years, I did it myself. I bought a Wahl clipper kit and used mirrors to get the back. I wouldn't do anything fancy. Just the sides and back all one number and trim the top how long I liked it.
Eventually I found a men's barber (that's run by a woman) who now does my haircuts. I get weird looks every time I go in, but I don't care. She does an excellent job and my hair looks great. I get charged the ladies price but it's only $16. Men's is $14, I think. Yes, I'm being charged $2 more for the same haircut just because I'm a woman, but if I went to a hair salon I'd be charged $20-50, depending on the place. And the cheaper places do not give me the haircut I'm looking for.
I've considered growing my hair out and just not dealing with it all, but I can't imagine myself with long hair anymore. It's just not who I am at this point.
Yeah, I have boycotted hairdressers and do my own hair (and also the hair of my siblings, parents and bf). I am considering going to a men's hairdresser, but the fact that it's called "men's" just because they specialize in shorter hairstyles is also pissing me off.
Yes! This bothers me as well. I wish I had a better answer than the ones given so far.
I would love it if a woman started a hair salon in my area with true pricing equality. I would go there in a second.
It's the same where I live (Austria), and it doesn't matter whether your hair is short or long. With hairdressers that are not part of a franchise with fixed prices for everybody, you'll always pay more simply because you're a woman. I used to have short hair for quite some time, and every month when I had to get a trim, I paid double of what a man would pay with short hair. For long hair, the majority of hairdressers adds a surcharge - again, only for women, and it doesn't matter if you have straight or curly hair. I've resorted to going to the hairdresser once, maybe twice a year, have the ends trimmed a bit and pay around 20 or 30 bucks including shampooing, excluding styling or blow-drying. It's still a lot of money, considering I'm usually done within, say, fifteen minutes, but that's as cheap as it gets.
The pink tax is on everything related to our looks. When I had very short hair when I was younger, I did go to a barber, and the only difference was that it cost less and she didn't try to upsell me on products. I don't put a lot of products in my hair and I don't get treatments, but still my haircut at a regular salon will cost more than a man's haircut. I get my haircut at cosmetology schools now, and it's the same price for everyone.
I will always remember that the best haircut I ever got was at a cosmetology school. Probably because the young woman actually listened to me when I said what I wanted. Nowadays, I just cut my hair myself. Way cheaper, and no pushy hairstylist trying force their vision onto my hair.
Salons have different overheads to barbers. Salons are largely female owned and staffed. They're allowed to earn money. You can get your style done cheaper at a barber's, at a no-frills haircut bar. Or for free with a pair of clippers.
Being largely female owned and staff doesn't mean it's not still sexist to charge women and especially those of us with curly hair more for haircuts. I would understand if it's being charged based on length, but it was the same deal when I had the same hair length as most males in the US.
Something that is weird to me is that where I go you pay for their time, not the length of your hair. You're also paying for the shampoo service, the dry, the products and the experience of being pampered as well as the stylist's years of expertise. I could save a lot by going to a cheap haircutting bar but I would not get the same quality of cut. For simple undercuts etc? Or one-length long hair? Those places are fine if you don't want to pay for more than just the cutting.
you pay for their time, not the length of your hair
That makes way more sense.
I agree, but most salons offer haircuts for both men and for women, but at a different price (usually 20-30% more for women with short hair than for men with short hair). Barbers are on a different section of the market so I understand their prices are different.
I feel you! I used to go to a hairdresser's where prices depended on the style of your haircut and it didn't matter if you were a man or a woman. Then we moved and it took me a while to find a new hairdresser's. When I was looking for it (I was doing it in advance, way before I actually needed to get my hair cut), I would just straightforwardly ask them if it was possible to get a male haircut for the men's price. In one place they said no, because they have different rooms and I was like, ok, I am not interested then. And then eventually in one place they said, ok. But even there they only agreed after I'd asked them why it wasn't possible. They didn't find what to say and agreed.
Different rooms? Is the women’s hair cut room better?
I don't know. They just told me they can't put me into the man's room and thus they couldn't give me a male haircut.
That just shifts the justification for the sex-discriminatory prices to "its the room's fault." Okay but why does the women's room cost more? Is it better? What do you get for it being more expensive? Bizarre.
I absolutely agree with you, but I wasn't in the mood for arguing, so I just left.
I Hate this so much. I usually just buzz my own hair because of this. The biggest hairdressers chain in my area did recently change their pricing to be "gender neutral" but it was accompanied with a big trans flag display and they chose to make the women's pricing the gender neutral one and did away with the men's pricing. So now everyone can pay an excessive amount of money instead of just the women.
In your scenario of having a typically "masculine" haircut, I'd suggest you just go to a barber and get it done there, because it's not a typically feminine style that a barber might not know how to cut properly.
I haven't been to an actual haircut place in a few years because I started cutting my own hair, or asking friends/family to do it. I have a simple (long) haircut so it's fine by me if it's not done by a professional, even though I used to go to a haircut place because that's just typically what people do. But eventually I realized I could probably cut my own hair.
If your hairstyle is simple enough, you might be able to cut it yourself with clippers, and/or ask a friend to help if you think that would be better.
The one I go to charges the same for both sexes. It's just a cheap haircut place, not a fancy salon.
Can you go to the same barber as your brother? If you've got short hair, they would know how to cut it.
Yeah, I could but I am also angry that it would mean that having short hair somehow means I am male and should go to the men's place.
I would really like to find somewhere affordable that does not discriminate. I thought I found one such place, but turns out they offer discounts to men without writing it on the sign.
Agreed. If anything, they should price by "short cut" and "long cut," not by sex.
I go to a "hip" salon that's gone full force kweer™️ in the past few years. But they changed their pricing structure a few years ago as well to go by hair length and time instead of men's and women's cuts. I get the old men's pricing for a simple short cut now.
I have actually considered taking a course on how to cut hair specifically to cut my own hair...!!! not sure when I will be able to do it, but I completely agree with this post!
Yeah. This makes me so angry that I decided for a hairstyle that doesn't require me to see a hairdresser. Haven't paid for a haircut in ten years.
Same, I have cut my own hair since I was 14 because of that, even when I dye them crazy colors.
But sometimes I would really like to have my hair cut professionally. The one time I did (because I found a hairdresser that seemed not to discriminate) he did a haircut I really liked and cannot reproduce on my own. I was happy and relieved to have finally found a non-discriminating place. But when later I came there with my bf, he was offered a (non-advertised) discount - "because he's a man" said the owner. So I do not trust any hairdressers now...
Oh damn. There are some hairdressers where I live that advertise the same prices for both sexes, but if those cannot be trusted either ...
Well. The assholes don't seem to be realizing that they are losing money with this shit. Same as you, I would actually like a nice, professional haircut once in a while, but I am not willing to let myself be treated like that.
It's the same where I live (Austria), and it doesn't matter whether your hair is short or long. With hairdressers that are not part of a franchise with fixed prices for everybody, you'll always pay more simply because you're a woman. I used to have short hair for quite some time, and every month when I had to get a trim, I paid double of what a man would pay with short hair. For long hair, the majority of hairdressers adds a surcharge - again, only for women, and it doesn't matter if you have straight or curly hair. I've resorted to going to the hairdresser once, maybe twice a year, have the ends trimmed a bit and pay around 20 or 30 bucks including shampooing, excluding styling or blow-drying. It's still a lot of money, considering I'm usually done within, say, fifteen minutes, but that's as cheap as it gets.
It's especially bad when you realize that there's no difference between male and female hair in terms of the hair itself. Hair can't be distinguished unless there's a root with genetic material which can be DNA tested. It's all just hair.
I grow mine down past my hipbones. I just can't be fucking bothered with all the fussy maintenance of shorter styles.