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DiscussionParties without Phones
Parties without Phones
I attended a liberal college and was also involved in a lot of LGBTQ+ clubs. One of them was the trans club which would organize a semi-nude party every fall. The rules were: private parts need to be covered but everything else is free to be shown, and phones are prohibited in order to allow people to show their breasts and be more exposed generally.
At first glance this seems a little icky. But in truth, the fact that no technology was allowed and everyone was at a vulnerable space meant that there was an extra layer of trust in the party that wouldn't be there in most other parties.
Ironically, the need for no-phones was the first time in my life since my teen years where I was at a party without technology, and where I somehow felt so safe to act foolishly and have fun. We knew the party ended at midnight, but we had no way of knowing when midnight would arrive. The party was at a hall with glowing lights and a quick drag show. It was funny to see people walking around without phones and without being able to distract themselves from each other. The result was that people were making bigger circles in the space and saying hi to each other more. We were distracting ourselves commenting on our outfits more. The vibes were rather awkward, but people were being nicer to each other than they usually would. I found myself making friends - something which rarely happens in most parties with such ease. Everyone was kind of stuck in that moment and started dancing and losing themselves.
I became part of a larger group that had just formed then and we decided to leave and do an after party at the queer frat house. By then we had our phones as we took them out of the lockers, but funnily enough, people weren't really using them. I didn't know what time it was and I no longer seemed to care. The night seemed to stretch indefinitely and even though nobody had drunk anything, I felt somewhat intoxicated by the simple fact that I felt disoriented and having to just stick with the group I was. Then we got to the queer frat. I remember sitting at the queer frat in a circle and everybody talking to each other, some others dancing. Things felt so.... chill and normal. For the first time in my whole college journey (I was a junior), I asked a group of girls what their sexual orientation was. I kid you not, they did not know how to answer. There was a very awkward silence and they looked at each other as if they needed permission to express themselves. I had to poke them some. Even though I don't believe in non-binary and related labels, I still asked them casually, "non-binary? demi? bisexual?" and they still felt embarrassed to say. It was so weird, principally because all of the group had just been at the supposedly queerest party on campus. Our campus is very liberal and was the first one in the country to have a gay society, so this moment struck me as incredibly odd.
I then spent the rest of the party dancing and holding a conversation about trans identities and rights with a trans friend. They are a TIM and they said even they don't agree with the ideology, and we were carefully navigating the whole discussion, but in the way people speak normally to each other, without fear or anything. That was the ONLY honest conversation about trans rights I had with another queer person in my whole time in college.
It was weird that nobody was wasting their time thinking about taking group selfies. Nobody was talking to somebody else on their phone, or weighing down what other people were doing at that exact night, if they were having more fun than us, etc. It was just us and the moment.
When I got back home, it wasn't even midnight yet, and yet it felt as if some 6 hours, a whole and complete night, had gone by. I felt giddy and light and warm as if I were a part of a community. It was the first time that I had felt some semblance of genuine camaraderie in college.
I remember walking on campus once and two old ladies stopped me to ask a question. They asked me where the Lion's Den was. I flinched and was like, "huh?". They said the party space used to have a bar where students would go to drink. I told them there wasn't any bar in college anymore and you had to go a few blocks down to be in one. They gave this really disappointed face. The had been to that college 30-40 years earlier and they said some of their best memories were at the bar with their friends.
That made me feel kind of sad. Even students who had been there 15 years earlier were having more genuine friendships and events than I was experiencing there. Like real fun nights without instagram worries.
And the year groups after mine got it even worse, because, with college protests now, the campus has been on a permanent lockdown (maybe you can guess where this is...) and nobody from the outside can come in usually. So these ladies, alumni, and other people wouldn't be able to roam campus and ask current students questions and talk about their stories. And it also seems as if most college clubs have been operating at much lower capacities because of the exhaustion granted by the protests. I am seeing many current students express a kind of emptiness but they also don't feel like they are allowed to complain, there is this deadpan silence wherever you go.
Anyway, I think some other poster was talking about depersonalization in today's society and people being colder and I think this is part of the answer.
Next week I am taking my first solo vacation since my daughters were born. They are 7 and 5 and I've been a SaHM this whole time.
My husband is taking a week off work to take care of them. I am excited because I haven't had much time to myself for many years. Even vacations as a family I have been working.
So now, I am going to visit my best friend and go to some theme parks and just have fun for a week :)
That is fantastic! I'm a SAHM too (four kids ages 1 through 10); I don't think there are many of us here, so hi 👋🏻 Someday, when my youngest is no longer nursing, I'd love to do that very same thing and take a solo trip somewhere. Maybe to Philly to visit the Mütter museum, since my husband would never want to go there 😆 Anyway, have the best time!
Do you have any encouragement to share about larger age gaps? My first two were two under two and, though it seemed like the worst decision ever made for the first year, its turned beautiful and I wish I could have that close age gap again. But, body is not cooperating and, if we can even have another healthy baby, it'll be at least a 3 year gap. Will they still be close? Will they want to play together?
My first two children are very close in age and my third is a gap of over 3 years and they all love each other and play great. :)
I wouldn't worry about larger age gaps. There are pros and cons for all gaps. My two have a waaaay bigger gap (not to the teens, but definitely past the point when anyone thought we'd have a second!).
Having a larger gap for a third actually seems to be common... I always assumed the parents did it intentionally, not due to fertility issues! Like, it's got to be tough to care for two young kids... you want to make sure everyone is getting their needs met. So it made sense to me that the parents would take a breather to make a larger gap before a third so their first two were more self-sufficient by that point.
My son had a friend last year who was 8 with a 5yo brother... and a newborn sister. The older boy and 5yo played with each other and seemed to have a good relationship. The 5yo pretty much ignored the baby. The 8yo absolutely doted on his little sister, like he thought she was the cutest ever. I'm sure when his little brother had been born he'd been indifferent-to-hostile... I know I was initially hostile when I was three and my little sister was born... but by the age of eight and already having a younger sibling, I guess he was both over any baby jealousy and old enough to enjoy baby cuteness and understand how to interact with a baby in ways like peek-a-boo. (And since you're worried about a 3yr gap... my younger sister and I did play together starting when she was like four. Would have been sooner but I had an older sister to play with - as an adult I'm closer with my younger sister than my older, although my older sister and I probably spent far more time playing together as kids. Our personalities are just too different to make us close as adults, while I can converse more easily with my younger sister.)
The 5yo pretty much ignored the baby. The 8yo absolutely doted on his little sister, like he thought she was the cutest ever.
That is exactly my experience! When I had #4, my 5/6yo liked her but didn't REALLY care, and my 3yo didn't care at all, whereas my 8/9yo fell in love HARD and still treasures and cherishes her more than I'd ever expected. It's such a different dynamic and I'm glad I got to witness/experience it.
Absolutely! I wouldn't worry about it at all. Ours are all more or less 3 years apart. My older two are quite close (though also at each other's throats daily), but my oldest (10) is also THE sweetest with the baby (1) in a way he wasn't with the other two; sometimes I wonder if they'll end up closest of all! A three year gap is nothing to fret over in my experience, and even a four+ year gap can result in close sibling ties. (Alternatively, of course, two siblings very close in age may not remain close at all as they grow—you really just never know.)
I can see why you'd be apprehensive, of course (and we actually tried for smaller gaps, but it always takes me awhile to fall pregnant), but from my perspective 3-4 years is still a relatively small difference. You'll also love seeing your older, more mature kids bond with a baby. It's so different when they're old enough to understand what's going on!
I don't know if that helps, but I'm happy to answer anything else! And my fingers are crossed that you're able to conceive soon!
Hi!! SAHM check in here. I’m very happy to see other women representing the lifestyle. That’s quite the decade you’ve been working!! Hopefully you can enjoy your Mütter trip soon.
Now I’m thinking of where I’d like to disappear to if I get a chance. I heard a lot of the women in my life growing up say “I’m running away to Mexico,” and honestly the beach and some sunshine alone sound amazing.
Hi back at ya!!
I love being a SAHM; I wouldn't want to be doing anything else, even when it's hard. That damn cliché is true, though: the days are long but the years are short. I blinked and a decade has passed!
Ohh, I would never say no to a Mexican getaway! I think that one might be more fun with a girlfriend or two. Hot sand, bright sun, big umbrellas, strong drinks... sounds dreamy!
Wow, 4 kids ages 1 through 10! That's awesome ❤️ Hopefully the age difference is enough that your older kids can entertain themselves while you care for the baby.
Yes, I recommend taking a trip just for you! My SIL takes a solo trip 2-3 times a year (but usually just a long weekend, not a full week) and she loves having time to be by herself or with her best friends. That's partly the reason I wanted to take a trip myself :)
Thank you! The older two being in school makes SUCH a difference. And although they're still plenty needy, they are now independent enough at 10 and 7 that they can go outside and play by themselves, etc. Game changer!
I traveled solo a good amount in my 20s, before marriage and kids, and I adored it! Can't wait to do it again.
That sounds amazing. That’s such a long time to do the SAHM mom grind without a break from the routine. You’re going to have a blast. And doing the theme parks without kids is going to feel like a factory reset. No chasing, no meltdowns!!
It feels like a very long time lol! But now that both my girls are in school full time I feel comfortable leaving them for a full week.
I am so excited to do a theme park as an adult with no kids! It's going to be weird at first haha
How exciting! Congrats and I hope you have a life-affirming, pleasure-filled trip!
This week has been tough will lots of work and a teething baby, but I'm pulling through. Love this thread, thanks all the ladies for your check ins.
Thought mums might want to see this. More Nestle behaving badly in developing countries.
We just finished the first big birthday party. Honestly FML but it was so worth it. Kiddo and friends were so happy. Even tho we had to make some swift changes due to the weather, everyone had fun.
We seriously rocked this, now we are dead tired and everything hurts. I want to fall asleep in a whirlpool now. And I dont have one. FML
But kiddo made new core memories and thats all that matters.
I think planning family celebrations is one of the avenues female spirituality takes.
Could be true. I'm not spiritual but this is one of my strengths that appeared after becoming a mother. I plan and i'm glad that my partner just blindly follows what I command because anything else would mess me up. It never goes how it's planned but we always make the best out of it and make beautiful memories together.
I'm dead tired, my feet and back are killing me but i cant stop smiling.
My kids are meeting my boyfriend tomorrow. We’ve been dating for 6 months. I’m nervous.
And don’t come at me for dating a man, I can’t help who I’m attracted to.
No one is coming for you here, no one is responsible for their sexuality.
6months is a good amount waiting, I wish you best of luck!
It’s happened before on Ovarit 😬 nothing terribly aggressive, just snide.
I’m trying to be very slow and cautious, doing my due diligence, making sure my kids understand boundaries and body safety, etc.
Good luck!! 🍀 How old are your kids? Six months sounds like a very reasonable amount of time to wait.
They range in age from 4-10. They know about him and have seen what he looks like, asked some questions that I passed on to him, and he sent a video answering which I think has helped everyone feel a bit more comfortable. I think the biggest thing I’m actually worried about is the reaction of their dad when he finds out because he wants to be in control of everything, so I think he’ll be pissed I didn’t “run it by him” or let him meet the boyfriend first (as if I’d let the stalker with anger issues do that).
Perhaps I’m a little extra sensitive lately and I was thinking about doing a post on it but I’ll just comment it here.
Sometimes on Ovarit it feels like there are women who are so anti-motherhood and anti-children. That is absolutely their choice and every woman should have that choice. No one should feel obligated or pressured into motherhood, nor should it become the shackles that bind a woman to the patriarchy or a shitty male.
At the same time, I also feel like I catch judgment for doing the thing my female body is designed around—reproducing—and sometimes that judgment isn’t just a “I don’t want to be a mother,” it becomes “women who become mothers are stupid and traitors to feminism” (not in those words, but that’s the tone that comes across).
It’s difficult for me to find the line between women’s liberation and coming full circle to demonizing our female bodies just as much as patriarchy and hating them for what they naturally do—and let’s be honest, most women are opposite-sex attracted and most women in the world will bear children. By asking not to be insulted for reproducing, I’m not demanding respect or deference. I just don’t want to be insulted because I’m a mother, and I don’t regret being a mother (although I do somewhat regret my choice of inseminator) so I’m not going to apologize about it.
Female separatism is the ideal, but where does it meet the reality? I don’t know if there’s an answer. But it’s something I think about a lot.
Sometimes!? It’s all over Ovarit, lots of misogyny aimed at mothers and female biological reality and ageist misogyny at older women especially.
It’s really sad. 9/10 women will be a mother at some point in our lives, no woman should if she doesn’t want to, but the snidey sneering at those who do is awful. And agree separatism is great, but the reality is most women will become mothers at some point and the reality is the human race will end if no women do. And the faux glee at that is simply immature, no one wants to be the last elderly dying generation if we think about the reality of what that would mean for all of 2 seconds. It’s the opposite of reality based to jump on throwing out anti natalism as an absolute solution to the reality based problems we currently face. It just shows the luxury of opting out of the reality the rest of us deal with and pick up the pieces for.
I strongly agree that it’s misogyny against female biological reality but I don’t know how to communicate that without getting the response of “oh so you think all women have to be mothers? Women who don’t have children are defying their purpose? That’s so regressive” and it honestly reminds me of TRAs accusing radfems of being “bio essentialist” for saying women have vaginas. Women also have children.
I understand childfree women catch a lot of judgment from society and get a lot of comments about it but damn, so do moms. There literally is no right way to be a woman in a patriarchy and this is more of that.
And sometimes it is in exactly those words 😕 especially towards those of us with sons. Talk of us "bearing oppressors" or future rapists and so on. As @SecondSkin said, unfortunately it's everywhere, including (perhaps especially) here. I'm glad (for your sake) you posted here instead of making a thread, because you'd almost certainly be ripped apart. Just this week I got downvoted for saying "thank you for this comment" to a woman who made a kind post about appreciating the work mothers of several children do (and that poster was of course downvoted as well). Who cares about downvotes, I know, of course, but it's just another example of how we can't get away from the ire and disapproval. And there seems to be extra hate reserved for those of us who CHOSE to have X number of children, because how dare we. It can be quite depressing.
I have a son and those comments do really hurt. I have daughters as well. I’m doing my damnedest with all of them. Some of these women seem to have lost touch with reality to embrace unrealistic ideals and it’s made them cruel.
To be honest, some of the women I've seen comment are vicious enough about it that I suspect they have conflicted feelings, regret, or envy due to their choice to not become a mother. I wouldn't ever say that to them because there's nothing to be solved with that, but it's all I can figure that makes their behavior make sense. Like, I don't go around thinking about childfree women - at all - and certainly never remark on them or feel anger towards them. I hope they're living their best lives and assume most of them (the ones who aren't angrily fixated on mothers) are indeed doing that and having a generally full and pleasant life just like I am.
So yeah, when I come across the vicious ones (definitely just a subset), I feel sorry for them. I love the existence of this Friday mom thread especially because mothers can talk without feeling like there's a chance of offending one of those types of users (I'm assuming they keep out of this thread, but idk, maybe they hate read). I've been leery of posting "mom" type posts to the general o/women because I feel like too many of those would trigger those users.
Ooh, you are indeed brave to say that out loud 😅 of course many are and remain happy with their choice, and that's EXCELLENT, but I just read in an article recently - an article which was overall quite anti-natal, making the case that it's GOOD that more women forego motherhood - that of women who remain child-free by choice long-term, 50% of them are still happy with that choice later in life. Which, of course, great for them... but the unspoken corollary is that the other 50% later regret it. That was totally skimmed over and I found that shocking.
It's pointless to say yet again that we need a Motherhood circle, but yeah. There is apparently a Motherhood tag/flair here in o/Women, but it's only been used three times ever. 🤔
Yeah, I remember seeing a poll... (searched: here it is) that said of Americans 45yrs and older, if they had to do it all over again, 7% of those who were parents would choose to have no children... and 44% of those who were not parents would still choose to have no children. That does include men too, but 56% of older non-parents choosing to have kids if they could do it all over again is a shocking regret rate compared with the 7% for parents. Likely a large portion of those non-parents had infertility, though.
That's wild. That article I read was also gloating about the fact that x% of parents regret having kids. But I don't think that necessarily means what people think it means. It doesn't automatically mean that those people hate being parents. It's often more complicated than that. I have a friend who says if he could do it all over again, he would choose not to have kids—though he adores his (now-grown) kids, would go to the ends of the earth for them, and so on. His reasoning is based on how hard it is to have "a part of your heart walking around outside your body," as the saying goes. The constant undercurrent of concern for where another human is, what he or she is doing, if he or she is safe, etc. The fact that once you're a parent, it simply isn't possible to be 100% carefree, likely for the rest of your life. I see where he is coming from. It can be hard on the psyche to love your children so deeply. I suspect more than a few people who "regret having kids" feel that way for similar reasons.
I don’t think it’s envy, I think most are probably happy with their choice and I hope that they are. I do think it’s a form of misogyny, however. We talk about men who hate their mothers or hate single moms etc and clearly call that out as misogyny but for some reason in feminist spaces it’s okay to call moms idiots and traitors, especially if—heaven forbid!—you create a male (as if you have any control over what sex chromosomes your kid will have).
I often think it’s not regret but their own hatred towards their mothers. Which is often justified (i had very valid reasons for hating mine) but there’s something primitive about needing to not like other girls to separate themselves from their mother and in doing so they project that onto other women, especially older women/mothers.
I get this, I did the same as a teen/early 20s. But it stands out as sign of very immature emotional literacy. Either because the woman is young or because there’s an element of stunted development when it comes to their wounds from their mother. There’s the female socialised misogyny and divide and conquer in there also, but it attaches itself so firmly because of how forceful unresolved pain from our own mothers imho.
I get the general discussion women here have about how they might feel if they had sons, even those who say they’d abort. I think women are entitled to these feelings. But there seems to be an additional unreasonable entitlement to project their feelings or stance on this onto other women. Which is awful. It’s blaming mothers for what men (as a whole) do, through guilting them for having sons. Blaming women for the actions of men is like the first rule of misogyny. But that’s ok when it comes to mothers. Men act entitled to treat women’s bodies as public property, but the minute we are pregnant it becomes socially acceptable for other women to treat our bodies as public property also. Everything we eat or don’t eat, exercise or not, c section or midwife at home birth, breast or bottle, work or sahm, every decision we make from them on becomes fair game for women to judge every bit as much as men. If not more so in many cases. Mothers are seen as at fault for all the world’s ills.
You put my feelings into words very succinctly here, thank you for that. This is exactly the idea I was trying to reach for and I wasn’t getting there.