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Discussion"You guys" speaks volumes - John McWhorter NYT newsletter
Posted December 5, 2024 by notsofreshfeeling in Women

Just wanted to share John McWhorter's email newsletter from today, because I imagine the views on this will be mixed and interesting. Copy-pasted below:

“You guys” speaks volumes

By John McWhorter

Remember the ad that Donald Trump ran accusing Kamala Harris of being “for they/them” while he proudly claimed to be “for you”? I was surprised to see grammar take the lead on issues influencing a presidential election. But pronouns have a rich history as fighting words, and “you” is an especially personal one; it can be at once simple and accusatory, depending on the context. Those Trump ads put me in mind of another such controversy over the use of “you”: “you guys” when it’s directed toward women.

Audrey Bilger, the president of Reed College, might have put this debate on the map in 2002, with an influential call to stop using “you guys” as a term of address for women, writing that “calling women ‘guys’ makes femaleness invisible.” That idea found some traction in the tech industry, among other places; one start-up invited employees to put a dollar in a glass jar each time they used the phrase in this manner. The novelist Alice Walker said the use of the term to refer to women reflected a “fear of being feminine.”

Some of those critics advise us to substitute “you all,” “all,” “folks” or “people.” Some have even suggested “y’all,” a word that reads as much too slangy, regional or what you might even call ethnic to ever gain universal acceptance.

From my observation of the speech patterns of girls and young women — including my daughters and students — I think “you guys” is a horse too far out of the barn to be roped back in. For one thing, as some of the critics note, many of the people who use “you guys” to refer to women are themselves women. (Same goes for “dude” and even “bruh,” as in “brother.”) Trying to stop them or anyone else from speaking this way would be like trying to stop people from saying, “And I was like ….”

Since at least the 18th century, language pedants have insisted that “he” can refer to men and women alike. Writing in 1745, Anne Fisher, the first grammarian known to have laid out the case, wrote that “the masculine person answers to the general name, which comprehends both male and female; as, any person who knows what he says” — or, in short, that “he” encompasses everyone. Psychological experiments have since proved otherwise, confirming that a masculine pronoun primes people to think primarily of men.

But “you guys” does something different, having traveled a well-worn pathway from a word with a specific, fixed meaning into something more — an element of grammar. Consider how we use “going to” as marking future action. William Chaucer would have been mystified to hear us say, “I’m going to remember that the next time.” It would have made no sense: In Middle English, “to go” meant to embark on a journey to a physical destination.

So if one of Chaucer’s contemporaries said, “I’m going to buy some eggs,” she was referring to her passage down the road in order to make the purchase. But since she hadn’t gone yet, she was also, by implication, speaking about the future. Over time, that implication became explicit. Thus Restoration Britons started using “going to” for things unrelated to moving their bodies through space, as in, perhaps, “I’m going to keep sitting right here.” Today “going to” does the same kind of thing as “will,” marking the future tense. “Go” became grammar.

“Guys” has undergone a similar transformation. The word has come to mark “you” as plural (note that we don’t say “you guy”), a very handy grammatical function that many other languages address with a single pronoun. “Guys” can still mean “a collection of men,” but it also means something quite different. It’s not the only example of a word that has evolved in completely divergent ways. Another is the N-word, which occurs in two versions: one a vicious slur, the other a term of affection. The kinder version emerged from the other, but it is not the same word at all.

But why “guys”? We wouldn’t address a room full of men as “you girls.” One reason is that English lacks a warm, relatable word for women. “Ladies” is dainty. “Sisters,” beyond Black English, sounds like nuns. “Gals” is a touch comic and perhaps a tad vintage — a little hair spray and Jell-O molds, to my ear.

Another reason is that English is, in general, somewhat pronoun starved. Other languages almost always have a richer array. In Hebrew, for example, the plural pronoun for “you” comes in both a masculine and a feminine form. Old English had “thou” for singular “you” and “ye” for plural “you” and even special words meaning just “we two” and “you two” (“wit” and “git”). Now we’re down to just “I,” “you,” “he,” “she,” “it,” “we” and “they” as subjects. It’s amazing that we make do with such a spare set. If an option for a plural “you” arises, it is natural for people to take it up.

When women call one another “you guys,” “dude” or “bruh,” I don’t hear a fear of being women. They have sapped the gender from a masculine word in order to use it for their own purposes. I hear it as progress.

34 comments

BehindtheCurtainDecember 5, 2024

The b word is the only thing I want people to stop using

real_feministDecember 5, 2024

I wish people would realize how offensive that one is. I hope some day it's considered as bad as the n-word.

StrawberryCoughDecember 5, 2024

I hate that so much

ALoudMeowDecember 6, 2024

The c word is 100 times worse.

BehindtheCurtainDecember 6, 2024

Personally, that one doesn't bother me. It's within our anatomy. B word is related to us being animals. Even guys get called dicks.

quiggyDecember 5, 2024

I say you guys. Idk. Y'all feels forced for me. Whatever. It's my plural. Honestly, I've started calling everything a 'guy' or 'guys' and I really enjoy it. A flea is a jumpy guy. A copse of trees are those leafy guys over there.

faerieberryDecember 5, 2024(Edited December 5, 2024)

Lol me too! Like if I see a mushroom, bird, anything really - “look at that little guy!” It’s so neutral to me 🤷🏻‍♀️

Edit to say, I’ll even refer to myself as “some guy” occasionally lmfao

TheChaliceIsMightierDecember 5, 2024

My cousin calls inanimate things "she" and at first it hit the ear weird but I actually love it.

Example: "oh, she's a little chipped but we'll fix her right up."

MascaraRunsFreeDecember 6, 2024

They call ships, countries etc as "she," so that usage has been around a very long time.

TheChaliceIsMightierDecember 6, 2024

Yes, but it's things that we would usually call "this little guy" as a cutesy thing and not for those traditionally "feminine" objects (ships, cars, etc)

MascaraRunsFreeDecember 7, 2024

I've never used "this little guy" for anything, although I know it's a common phrase (or somewhat common). I don't use "this little gal" either, but may try it out if I get a chance!

TheChaliceIsMightierDecember 7, 2024

She mostly does it with my nails lol

ToNorthDecember 5, 2024

There's something to be said about language that makes male the default and how working away from it changes perceptions. For example, 'firefighter' instead of fireman, 'police officer' instead of policeman. All that changes the way we think about these jobs and how we react/respond to the words. Women being erased through language goes beyond gender woo, if anything it's a cancerous symptom of the larger issue.

StrawberryCoughDecember 5, 2024

I've seen the change in many words over my lifetime. "Chairman" to "Chair", and the examples you listed as well. We had consensus around "Actor", but TRAs have dragged us back to "Actress", although it is mostly used for TIMs.

MascaraRunsFreeDecember 6, 2024

LOL I totally support actress being used to refer to female AND male performers. The language always flows toward male as default, and women gladly embrace it, even feminists. We don't want to be too weird or strident do we? We'd really stick out and make ourselves targets if we did that.

StrawberryCoughDecember 6, 2024

LOVE that idea. But, no, I do want to be too weird, I need to live authentically as my true self!

OnlyHumanDecember 5, 2024(Edited December 5, 2024)

One reason is that English lacks a warm, relatable word for women.

This

Guy came first, gal is basically just a shittier version of the word girl. Whereas bro has the epic camaraderie of brotherhood (sis... has been very much ruined) and dude basically appeared one day and was cool enough to stick around despite changing meanings. Dudette is the "ah shit there's a woman here we need to distinguish somehow" and -ette is a diminutive

Queen could be used for cool and badass women, but most contemporary usage is just 'yaaas queen'

MascaraRunsFreeDecember 6, 2024

What's "shitty" about gal - the same thing that's "shitty" about actress, waitress, etc.

I'll know women are politically powerful in ways they are not currently, when the "badass" (word I hate) language choice is gal, actress, etc for women AND men.

Anaktorias_SecretDecember 5, 2024

Reminds me of when I was younger and did tap dancing. There were 15 girls in the class and this one boy joined. Internally I feared that, because of one boy, the teacher would have to stop addressing us as girls and instead say “guys”. Gladly, she changed to “girls and boy”

That would never be a worry the other way round. If one girl joined a class of 15 dudes, none of them would worry about having to change how they address each other, to stop being addressed as a group of guys, because of 1 girl.

Male became default because calling a man a woman is offensive. That’s really the main reason.

MascaraRunsFreeDecember 6, 2024

People don't want to deal with this "tiny little fly in the ointment" of how wonderful "guy" is. A 'tiny' signifier of women's secondary status, still.

RadisheDecember 5, 2024

When I was in fourth grade, an assistant teacher would call the class "you guys". I would always say loudly "I am NOT a guy!" I was completely ignored by both the teacher and the rest of the class. I'm sorry it's still a thing. People will say this when talking to groups of all women.

MascaraRunsFreeDecember 6, 2024

I think being able to address men as "you gals" would be great. I'd like this scene in a movie please. Some high-powered female executive addresses her all-male team as "you gals." They don't like it, and she's completely flummoxed - "Why on earth not? Women don't mind being addressed as "you guys," so what's the problem. Seriously, I want to understand my team's thinking." I can just see Susan Sarandon saying this, in character as high-powered exec.

RadisheDecember 6, 2024

I would totally see that movie.

in_her_bonesDecember 5, 2024

I will die on the hill of being able to use 'you guys' to refer to a mixed sex or even all women group of people.

If the gender specials can play around with the usage of they/them then I can play around with the usage of 'you guys'.

MascaraRunsFreeDecember 6, 2024

Yes, and if you can play around with "you guys," I can play around with "you gals."

EvileineDecember 5, 2024

In parts of Ireland, ye is still used as a plural pronoun. I was surprised the first time I heard it, but I like it.

TheChaliceIsMightierDecember 5, 2024

Bring back "ye!" bring back "ye!"

real_feministDecember 5, 2024(Edited December 5, 2024)

People attack phrases like "you guys" since it's easier that bringing up things like discrimination or sexual harassment. Those people are either entirely oblivious to the problems and unwilling to listen to women about our actual needs or they are powerless and want to pick battles they believe are winnable. These aren't the solutions we need.

Though, I will say that I used to work in an almost-all-male office where one guy would sometimes use "guy" when referring to just me. The context was always something along the lines of indicating that I was the particular person who... X, Y, or Z. Even though I corrected him it was more out of amusement. He definitely treated me like an equal more than other men and, ironically, his usage of "guy" for me probably indicated that.

MascaraRunsFreeDecember 6, 2024

Oh please, I bring everything up, it's not either/or. "Those people are either entirely oblivious to the problems and unwilling to listen to women about our actual needs or they are powerless and want to pick battles they believe are winnable. These aren't the solutions we need." Wrong. Feminists walk and chew gum at the same time!

So he wouldn't mind you referring to him as "gal," then. Since you're equals, right, "he treated me like an equal more than other men." So I'm sure he wouldn't mind.

PtarmagantDecember 5, 2024

Bring back thou for singular usage, I say!!!

PiquedInterestDecember 5, 2024(Edited December 5, 2024)

I hate the defaultization of men, but I'd tolerate being referred to as one of the guys or as a councilman with no grumbling if I could never hear another gendered slur again. The hate in slurs does so much more damage than erasing women from our language.

MascaraRunsFreeDecember 6, 2024

Wrong. Women supposedly don't have the power to change language, "horse is out of the barn." That's just for men. Changing language. Men are early adopters and women passively follow along. See: "preferred pronouns."