9
NonfictionMaking Sex, T. Laqueur "gender preceded sex"
Making sex: body and gender from the Greeks to Freud by Thomas Walter Laqueur 1990
This a bit meandering and my first post, I have been wanting to discuss this book from a gender critical perspective for a while. I stumbled on the book by random and found the content relevant to the current push to do away with the idea of female/male as distinct categories.
The primary theory in the book is that the very idea of opposite sexes (two-sex model as he refers to it) as incommensurable opposites rooted in biology is a recent development from the 18th century. Prior to that, he argues, Western philosophy held men and women to differ from an underlying nonphysical principle, and the body reflected this metaphysical difference rather than being the material cause (one-sex model). In this model, women were viewed as lesser versions of men.
"Historically, differences of gender preceded differentiations of sex."
"To be a man or a woman was to hold a social rank, a place in society, to assume a cultural role, not to ‘be’ organically one or the other of two incommensurable sexes."
In reading into the topic more I found that this book is given credit for popularizing the idea of "sex is a social construct" and referred to as "a bedrock of gender and sexuality studies."
One critique also praised it by saying: "To the extent that it has helped destabilize the notion of biological sex, the story’s impact has been undoubtedly positive." *
As Laqueur describes the book: > This book, then, is about the making not of gender, but of sex. I have no interest in denying the reality of sex or of sexual dimorphism as an evolutionary process. But I want to show on the basis of historical evidence that almost everything one wants to say about sex—however sex is understood—already has in it a claim about gender. Sex, in both the one-sex and the two-sex worlds, is situational; it is explicable only within the context of battles over gender and power. (chapter one page 11)
His conclusion is that "a two-sex and a one-sex model had always been available to those who thought about difference and that there was no scientific way to choose between them."
In his view, the change from one model to the other is not caused by scientific advances or attaining more facts but is driven by political ideologies. The two-sex model is described as coming into prominence with the Enlightenment as a way of keeping women out of politics. With the democratic ideal of all men having a voice and participating, if women are simply a variation of men, then what basis could there be to keep them out? But if women were not a variation of men, and were instead entirely different beings, then there was a biological and scientific justification for 'separate spheres'. But he also acknowledges that the idea of difference was used by feminists to argue for women's involvement in politics. Because if women are distinct from men, then it is not reasonable to expect men to be able to represent women's distinctly different interests.
The people who use this book to argue against a binary sex model come across as hypocritical, ignoring Laqueur's framing of both models as being culturally produced: > Two incommensurable sexes were, and are, as much the products of culture as was, and is, the one-sex model. (ch5 p.153)
He also describes the one-sex model and the culture around it in the following ways: > [the one sex model] was framed in antiquity to valorize the extraordinary cultural assertion of patriarchy. p20
The one-sex model can be read, I want to suggest, as an exercise in preserving the Father, he who stands not only for order but for the very existence of civilization itself. p58
the one sex model displayed what was already massively evident in culture more generally: man is the measure of all things, and woman does not exist as an ontologically distinct category. p62
Some of the criticisms of his claims have to do with the timeline, saying the shift happened earlier and less dramatically than he presents. That the two models have co-existed and there is no sharp contrast between when one was completely dominant over the other.
Right now seems to be a moment of shifting and competing ideological views on sex difference, so I was curious if Laqueur had commented. When I could not find anything, I thought maybe he had retired, but then found he is a professor of history at the University of California. It seems unlikely he is unaware of people being booed, fired, or accused of bigotry for stating belief in the binary model of sex.
You can read the book here
I would recommend chapters one and two if you don't have time for the whole thing.
Critique focusing on the timeline: A woman down to her bones, Michael Stolberg "As Joan Cadden and others have pointed out, the “one-sex model” was already contested in ancient and medieval medicine, and the historical divide between the periods when the “one-sex” and the “two-sex” model prevailed was less clear cut than Laqueur suggests."
A critique that seems rooted in queer theory that also praises it for questioning sex as a scientific category:
*[ Let go of Laqueur, Brook Holmes] (https://www.academia.edu/41336924/Let_Go_of_Laqueur_Towards_New_Histories_of_the_Sexed_Body_1) "the claim to fame of Making Sex is a narrative of radical historical rupture that makes the idea of biologically sanctioned sexual difference contingent, thereby undermining its status as a scientific fact immune to contestation and helping displace sex together with gender. Who wouldn't be on board with such a project? The numbingly crude politics of sexual difference—scientific findings on the “female brain” or natural deficits in men's capacity to nurture...have hardly gone away."
Putting the T before everything in the acronym speaks volumes. Also, weird that they specify 'femme' but there's not one mention of masc. Purposeful erasure?
Reminds me of the on-the-nose symbolism of the “progress” flag: trans pushing in a special place for itself using PoC as a bulwark.
This looks very much like “we don’t want cis anything, especially not those triggering female ones”
its to make sure the only people present are the types they want to fuck
Oh, I’m sure “femme” means “man pretends to be a woman.”
Also, are these groups and situations really going to encourage MORE engagement by pandering to a very small minority of pervs instead of to potentially half the population? I wonder about how these businesses decide to do this. Are the owners independently wealthy?
Yeah, I always took it to mean that "femme" was a term used by some lesbians to distinguish themselves as basically opposite to butch lesbians. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.)
But now femme seems to mean "a man who Live Action Role Plays (LARPs) as female based on his narrow, stereotypical view of womanhood."
No, I agree that was the previous meaning.
But, the pervs decided to take over everything.
Great question, and here's the unsurprising answer: the shop is a non-profit org that aims to make the outdoors "more inclusive."
Oh — I just had a flashback from several years ago of various outdoor brands partnering with drag queens and pervs for ad campaigns.
Let’s just say I’m never giving any of those companies my money.
Oh, god. I remember that. It was possibly even dumber than having men model wedding dresses. I'm sorry but having drag queen spokesfolx in heels, wigs, and eight pounds of garish makeup does not inspire confidence in the quality of your climbing harnesses.
Honestly, let them have their new acronym so we lesbians can just make a clean break... seems like a win for Get the L Out
I am so, so glad they are taking themselves out of the LGB equation. I am all for it, I want them all to understand that they are a different entity from women so that I never have to hear the word "transbian" again, or see a 5 o'clock shadow at women/lesbian events and apps. And they can take the kweers and handmaidens with them.
Please keep making trans acronyms and groups so that when people hear the name, alarm bells go off (like NAMBLA), instead of being lumped in with lesbians. Host your own TFNBQ+ events, "ban" women and lesbians, and stop invading women's spaces with your aggressive mimicry.
Same here, but I live in San Fran. Still, it infuriates me! they'll still have 'men's night' at the local spa but the women's night is now women and trans.
We had something similar for a local arts festival - formerly women, now random 'identities' (so probably some women and some men). Damn shame, I'd have gone to a women's festival, not at all interested in the random identities festival.
Let them have it. We can reclaim LGB and heterosexuals ( not trans hand maidens) and start our own “rides” (races)., workshops, etc.
But not before we have a mechanism in place to stop them colonizing our new projects and spaces.
And can anyone tell me what "femme" means in this context? Ugh, it's so regressive and sexist I could puke. They're so far behind and still think they're first!
Earlier this year, Them/Us published a word-salad piece, What Does It Mean to Be Femme? that proves all your points, OP. Some excerpts:
If you’ve spent any amount of time in queer spaces, then you’ve probably heard someone described as “femme.” You may have dated one, drawn in by their bright lipstick, statement earrings, or hyper-feminine attire.
femme is an identifier used by LGBTQ+ people who purposefully present in a feminine manner.
Does “femme” mean the same thing as “woman?” The short answer is no. The word “femme” describes a form of queer self-expression, not a person’s gender identity. Femmes can be women, and many are, but they can also be trans or nonbinary people or queer men. Likewise, not all queer or trans women identify as femmes.
While “femme” was originally used primarily in lesbian spaces, it’s now used more broadly and encompasses non-lesbian members of the LGBTQ+ community. That can include bisexual and queer women and other sapphics; trans and nonbinary people; and even gay, bi, and queer men.
femme identity is not a replication of societally sanctioned gender norms — through their appearance, personal style, and mannerisms, femmes deliberately play with and refute heteronormative, cisnormative conventions of femininity.
a hallmark of femmeness is its deliberate subversion, exaggeration, and/or blatant rejection of patriarchal femininity. Femmes don’t cater to the cisgender, heterosexual male gaze, and that’s by design.
Being a femme is inextricably related to a person’s gender and sexuality, but it doesn’t necessarily reflect their gender identity. It’s more about the choices they make regarding their outward presentation. (Femme or not, gender expression is different from gender identity.) Because femme is an expansive umbrella of presentation, it has many subcategories. Just a few include:
- High femme: A femme whose presentation is ultra-feminine — think pink, glitter, and sequins.
- Hard Femme: A femme who has a hard edge to their femininity — think leather, spikes, and platform stomping boots.
- Femme top: A femme who tops during sex, often exclusively.
- Stone Femme: A femme who may not desire penetrative sex or sexual contact.
'Stone Femme' 😫🤢
Of all the silly, misogynistic, backwards thinking... Who comes up with this stuff?
Way to admit that the whole thing is about sexualisation of patriarchally enforced 'femininity' and penis feels.
'Femmes don't cater to the cisgender, heterosexual male gaze, that's by design'
How?!?! Leaving aside the fact that most TIMs don't pass and therefore don't appeal to heterosexual men for that reason, how exactly does their outward presentation avoid catering to the male gaze?
To be charitable, I guess maybe they are saying most TIMs don't go for Kardashian-style body modifications (e.g. BBLs, boob jobs, waist-trainers, lip filler, fake tan...etc.) but A. only a tiny minority of actual woman do that either and B. quite a few 'queer' 'femmes' absolutely do and would if it were financially and surgically feasible. You see shades of this with TIM personalities like Nikita Dragun, Rose Montoya or (much as TRAs hate him) Blaire White. Even amongst less-extreme body modified, fishnets, miniskirts and lingerie pics aren't exactly rare, is that not 'catering to the male gaze'?
What gets me here isn't actually people trying to look like 'sexy' women, it's is the implication that 'regular' non-LGBTQ+ femininity does cater to the male gaze, and therefore that 'femme' people are doing femininity in a 'better' way than...you know...women.
how exactly does their outward presentation avoid catering to the male gaze?
Some of them look as horrible/ridiculous as they can (think Alok Vaid-Menon). Some will grow out a beard to accompany their "femme presentation" (Jonathan Van Ness), which obviously will be offputting to straight men. And some will never be attractive as "femmes" regardless how hard they try (Jacob Tobia).
I’d be happy if the TIMs would stick with femme instead of insisting their porn-parody had anything to do with womanhood.
But in this case there are also specifically trans and queer categories!
And can anyone tell me what "femme" means in this context?
If I had to guess, a man with visible facial hair and pink nails. There's a non-zero chance he'll "jokingly" offer to compare boobs with you.
Self-described "powerful femme icon" Alok Vain-MENon ticks many of the boxes you mention, though his nails aren't always pink. He wears other colors of nail lacquer sometimes, such as lavender. He even wrote a whole book called "Femme in Public." Alok is currently on tour with a new stage act called "Hairy Situation" that's being billed as "comedy," though the snippets I've seen strike me as just a bunch of preachy navel-gazing droning drivel.
https://butterwort.art/2024/08/25/hairy-situation/
https://www.alokvmenon.com/about
https://sixtyinchesfromcenter.org/alok-vaid-menon-femme-in-public-now/
https://media.spokesman.com/photos/2024/05/08/663adba3da3b6.hires.jpg
https://alokvmenon.myshopify.com/products/femme-in-public-poetry-book-pdf
Once I heard Vaid-Menon's (late) aunt Urvash Vaid was a lesbian activist, I wondered if she was partly responsible for his sense of entitlement into women's spaces/spaces where he didn't belong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urvashi_Vaid
"Vaid was a staunch sexual liberationist. As Richard Burns, who had been the managing editor of the Gay Community News prior to becoming Vaid's classmate at Northeastern recalled, "If I told her about a sex club, she wanted to go, too," Burns said. "And then we did, and then we were thrown out when they discovered she was not a guy. More than once."[2] A co-worker at the National LGBTQ Task Force remembers in article in the New Yorker, "In 1990, Urvashi gave us a fisting demonstration at our Task Force staff meeting, raising her hand in the air and creating the proper form."
You bet your ass she was:
"happy lesbian day of visibility! 💫 grateful for all lesbians! especially thankful for my lesbian masis (aunts) Urvash & Kate *for helping raise me into the person i am today & doing so much activism in the world to pave the way for me. how lucky i was to grow up schooled in lesbian feminism & surrounded by lesbian community. * ps clock my queer finger gestures?? & this vest?? iconic!!!"
He did a BA at Stanford in in feminist, gender, and sexuality studies, was made Communications and Grassroots Fundraising coordinator at the Audre Lorde Project, he was made host of a Pride celebration in his hometown to commemorate the 50th anniversary of Stonewall and is feted by things like NBC's "Pride 50."
I hate to say it, but women, and especially certain lesbian women, kowtow to the sense of entitlement of TIMs like him and frequently enable them in a way that straight and gay men don't. Gay men might be OK with TIMs (and spicy straights) in their political organisations because they subconsciously understand the huge numbers of autogynephiles gives LGBT organisations more political clout. But AFAIK, they don't generally let TIMs or TIFs into gay men's spaces the way women or lesbian women do.
It just bugs me that the women who stand to lose the most from these men are the ones paving the way for them.
It's like taking all the locks of your doors, choosing to invite the vampires into your home, wearing off-the-shoulder clothing and then inviting them to bite your neck.
Thanks for that information. I had no idea. I am horrified, and particularly grossed out by the image of Aunt Urvashi giving "a fisting demonstration" in meetings. Ew.
Tobi Hill-Myer (a TIM who made it his mission to invade MichFest and other female/lesbian spaces) was raised by lesbians who apparently cheerlead his bullshit rather than disown him.
https://laurietobyedison.com/body-impolitic-blog/tag/tobi-hill-meyer/
"Tobi Hill-Meyer used both spoken word and film to explore what happened to her at a Feminist Porn Awards show, when she and her girlfriend were harassed by a security guard for making out in the gender-neutral bathroom (!). Hill-Meyer has severe Multiple Chemical Sensitivity, and had to wear her breathing mask in the bathroom because of those (horrible!) scent-releasing machines which hotels and other public venues will claim make life “better.” The mask changes her breathing, which is what attracted the guard’s attention, and also confused the guard about her gender. The result: disability and trans identity come together in a miserable institute of harassment (which was, fortunately, resolved fairly cleanly, but left both Hill-Meyer and her girlfriend traumatized). This piece was very clearly narrated, and the film (of the makeout session in the bathroom stall) brought an immediacy to it which strengthened the impact."
Someone who actually had MCS, and was concerned about their ability to breathe in public, would be highly unlikely to go to a public venue celebrating porn, go to the toilets, and then "make out."
Traumatised, my arse.
This man made his disability into a fucking performance piece with other TIMs who "embody queer disability."
This man's body is (allegedly) falling to pieces and he's still a porn-addled exhibitionist who makes it all about him and his so-called oppression. You only have to look at some of the titles of drivel he's publishing as "books:"
Fuckstyles of the Queer and Famous, What Makes Us Queer, The Genderfellator...
Author and activist Tobi Hill-Meyer filled us in on all of her latest work for the trans community, and for trans and poly parents. We discussed inducing lactation, Tobi's family of 3 parents to her baby, and changing laws to make life better for all parents. We are treated to snippets of one of her children's books the Princess of Great Daring as well as a adult-content gender-exploding reading from Nerve Endings: The New Trans Erotica .Tobi Hill-meyer is a multi-racial indigenous transgender non-binary woman nationally renowned political activist and award-winning writer, children’s book author, filmmaker, educator and speaker. She’s the co-executive director of Gender Justice League. Moorea caught up with her Seattle where she lives, works and is newly a parent.
This guy has convinced women to live with him, form a threesome and reproduce with him.
I weep for the child. They don't stand a chance.
FFS.
There's a certain class of TiM who may not have done anything technically illegal; but, when and if gender woo subsides, ought to be excluded from polite society because their behavior has been so disgusting and obnoxious.
(In no way should this be read as me discounting the possibility that Alok Vaid-Menon has done something illegal).
Is this an attempt at erasing LGB by saying that they’re included in the Q?
By TRA logic “femme” should be anyone who identify as “femme” so I don’t think you’ll find a coherent definition. I’ve seen TIMs and non-brainery men use it for themselves.
"Non brainery!" 😂
I love it! 😁
Femme means anyone remotely "feminine" or identifying as such(🥴). Used to be a word for wlw types, but it doesn't mean that anymore.
"Femme" includes the likes of Alok Vaid-Menon who won't commit to pretending to be women but demand entry into women's spaces anyway.
No, never heard of "TFNBQ+". I tried googling it and the only result was Ovarit
That's exactly what I did! I guess these dummies are trying to make it a thing...
No, and I can't say I feel the poorer for not having heard.
Argh!
It’s hard to escape your conclusion that lesbian feminists are being specifically excluded. “Perform caricatured feminity or stay home.”
I think “femme”, in contemporary gender circles, means “person who likes wearing nail polish and make-up”. Don’t take it to the bank, it’s just my guess from browsing social media.
Ugh, it's so regressive and sexist I could puke. They're so far behind and still think they're first!
I'd like to be able to write a song where that's the refrain.
I have a game for everyone. Let's figure out what this new stupidity really stands for, because surely we don't need another dumbass initialism for the same group of coddled little dweebs. I'll start with some possibilities of my own.
TFNBQ+
The fart no-body questioned+
They found Napoleon Bonaparte's Q-tip+
Tori's famous Nashville barbecue quiche+
That's for nicking Beethoven's quill!+ 😡🪶
TERFs, feminists, and natural-born queens+
That's fucking nonsense; be quiet+
TikTok fashion is not being "queer"+
Toads, frogs, and newts brewed quarterly+
Trans-feminine nutsacks and blushing queenises+
Testosterone: finally, nonagenarian bone quality!+
LMAO
These Fuckin Narcissists Better Quit +
My favorite!
Mine too!
Those Fuckers Not Be Queer +
Thanks for nothing, bogus "queers"+
TFNBQ = Transylvanian Foundation for Notarized Bat Quotas
You are nearly making me pee my pants. These are amazing.
Edit: wish this could be saved. This deserves some kind of prize
My initial assumption was Trans, Furries, Non-Binary, Bi, Queer.
I love it!