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NonfictionMaking Sex, T. Laqueur "gender preceded sex"
Posted June 11, 2022 by EvelynCarnahan in Books

Making sex: body and gender from the Greeks to Freud by Thomas Walter Laqueur 1990

This a bit meandering and my first post, I have been wanting to discuss this book from a gender critical perspective for a while. I stumbled on the book by random and found the content relevant to the current push to do away with the idea of female/male as distinct categories.

The primary theory in the book is that the very idea of opposite sexes (two-sex model as he refers to it) as incommensurable opposites rooted in biology is a recent development from the 18th century. Prior to that, he argues, Western philosophy held men and women to differ from an underlying nonphysical principle, and the body reflected this metaphysical difference rather than being the material cause (one-sex model). In this model, women were viewed as lesser versions of men.

"Historically, differences of gender preceded differentiations of sex."

"To be a man or a woman was to hold a social rank, a place in society, to assume a cultural role, not to ‘be’ organically one or the other of two incommensurable sexes."

In reading into the topic more I found that this book is given credit for popularizing the idea of "sex is a social construct" and referred to as "a bedrock of gender and sexuality studies."

One critique also praised it by saying: "To the extent that it has helped destabilize the notion of biological sex, the story’s impact has been undoubtedly positive." *

As Laqueur describes the book: > This book, then, is about the making not of gender, but of sex. I have no interest in denying the reality of sex or of sexual dimorphism as an evolutionary process. But I want to show on the basis of historical evidence that almost everything one wants to say about sex—however sex is understood—already has in it a claim about gender. Sex, in both the one-sex and the two-sex worlds, is situational; it is explicable only within the context of battles over gender and power. (chapter one page 11)

His conclusion is that "a two-sex and a one-sex model had always been available to those who thought about difference and that there was no scientific way to choose between them."

In his view, the change from one model to the other is not caused by scientific advances or attaining more facts but is driven by political ideologies. The two-sex model is described as coming into prominence with the Enlightenment as a way of keeping women out of politics. With the democratic ideal of all men having a voice and participating, if women are simply a variation of men, then what basis could there be to keep them out? But if women were not a variation of men, and were instead entirely different beings, then there was a biological and scientific justification for 'separate spheres'. But he also acknowledges that the idea of difference was used by feminists to argue for women's involvement in politics. Because if women are distinct from men, then it is not reasonable to expect men to be able to represent women's distinctly different interests.

The people who use this book to argue against a binary sex model come across as hypocritical, ignoring Laqueur's framing of both models as being culturally produced: > Two incommensurable sexes were, and are, as much the products of culture as was, and is, the one-sex model. (ch5 p.153)

He also describes the one-sex model and the culture around it in the following ways: > [the one sex model] was framed in antiquity to valorize the extraordinary cultural assertion of patriarchy. p20

The one-sex model can be read, I want to suggest, as an exercise in preserving the Father, he who stands not only for order but for the very existence of civilization itself. p58

the one sex model displayed what was already massively evident in culture more generally: man is the measure of all things, and woman does not exist as an ontologically distinct category. p62

Some of the criticisms of his claims have to do with the timeline, saying the shift happened earlier and less dramatically than he presents. That the two models have co-existed and there is no sharp contrast between when one was completely dominant over the other.

Right now seems to be a moment of shifting and competing ideological views on sex difference, so I was curious if Laqueur had commented. When I could not find anything, I thought maybe he had retired, but then found he is a professor of history at the University of California. It seems unlikely he is unaware of people being booed, fired, or accused of bigotry for stating belief in the binary model of sex.

You can read the book here

I would recommend chapters one and two if you don't have time for the whole thing.

Critique focusing on the timeline: A woman down to her bones, Michael Stolberg "As Joan Cadden and others have pointed out, the “one-sex model” was already contested in ancient and medieval medicine, and the historical divide between the periods when the “one-sex” and the “two-sex” model prevailed was less clear cut than Laqueur suggests."

A critique that seems rooted in queer theory that also praises it for questioning sex as a scientific category:

*[ Let go of Laqueur, Brook Holmes] (https://www.academia.edu/41336924/Let_Go_of_Laqueur_Towards_New_Histories_of_the_Sexed_Body_1) "the claim to fame of Making Sex is a narrative of radical historical rupture that makes the idea of biologically sanctioned sexual difference contingent, thereby undermining its status as a scientific fact immune to contestation and helping displace sex together with gender. Who wouldn't be on board with such a project? The numbingly crude politics of sexual difference—scientific findings on the “female brain” or natural deficits in men's capacity to nurture...have hardly gone away."

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EdelgardAugust 2, 2024

Agreed. The IOC is the main culprit in this story, precisely because they refuse to be transparent about their athletes. A simple cheek swab and everyone would look like an idiot and owe an heartfelt apology to the boxers... unless, of course, they're men.

If I were a female boxer wrongly accused of being a man by a corrupt federation, I would absolutely use this opportunity to clear my name. I would call for the cheek swab myself, and shove my results in the face of anyone who's called me a man.

Of course, if I were a man, I would do everything I can for the test not to happen. A gold medal brings both prestige and money, after all.

sylviasmushroomsAugust 3, 2024

My husband asked me in light of this how I would feel if I had to undergo a genetic test to compete, and learned I was XY.

I said “I would accept reality, and understand that I’m male and shouldn’t compete!”

Most men do not understand this answer, because they would not give it.

[Deleted]August 3, 2024

Always gets me when men ask that. As if every single woman on earth who has had a period every month of their lives since they were 12, 13, 14 years old wouldn't know they're female.

If I had never had a period and never grown breasts like Khelif, I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out I was XY at 25 years of age.

RappaccinisDaughterAugust 3, 2024

The "no period by adulthood" thing is such a massive red flag that something is wrong, reproductively, that unless they get literally no healthcare, there's no excuse for them not knowing something is wrong.

Now, there are other reasons a girl might never get a period than being XY, but a doctor would track the cause down if you came in at 16/17 saying you've never had one.

He knows. How could he NOT know? But it makes him a better boxer so he hasn't expressed it publicly.

DoomedSibylAugust 2, 2024

If I were a female boxer wrongly accused of being a man by a corrupt federation, I would absolutely use this opportunity to clear my name. I would call for the cheek swab myself, and shove my results in the face of anyone who's called me a man.>

Yes, so would I. It’s not like a persons biological sex is generally secret or privately held information.

[Deleted]August 3, 2024

If people actually treated him as a woman there would be tons of post criticising her with "why didn’t she take a DNA test already??"

IrishTheFrenchieAugust 3, 2024

Yep. These same people were shitting on a female rugby player last week and calling her "manly".

NoNameAugust 2, 2024

Sure. They could dispel the rumors that they are men at any time. But they don't.

The fact I've seen men defending these boxers on X and calling Angela Carini all manner of sexist slurs suggests to me that everyone does know who the man was and who the woman was.

DoomedSibylAugust 2, 2024

Funny how that works isn’t it?

HeadacheAugust 3, 2024(Edited August 3, 2024)

I'm convinced he absolutely knows he's a man. He might not have known at one point if his sex truly started out as ambiguous, but he definitely does know now and has for a while. My gut is telling me he likes hitting women because of what happened to him: he resents them for growing up into proper women, unlike him, who turned out to be an inferior male.

He also went into the Olympics knowing this would happen, and possibly even counted on it to gain sympathy, especially given the current climate.

OdoAugust 2, 2024

This is a helpful thread from one of the Reduxx journalist who originally broke the story. It really would be very simple for Khelif and Lin to prove they are women. That they don't says everything.

https://x.com/Slatzism/status/1819427537740558848

DoomedSibylAugust 2, 2024

That was a good read, thank you. Saying basically the same thing: why not just prove that they’re female? Answer: because they can’t.

Researcher1536August 2, 2024

That one didn't challenge and the other did but withdrew the challenge is pretty interesting. Sums it up right there. Thanks for sharing.

DoomedSibylAugust 2, 2024

I read that the results of the appeal become public knowledge once the appeal is complete. If Khelif hadn’t withdrawn the appeal the type of testing and the results would have been made public. Call me cynical but I think that’s the reason the appeal was withdrawn.

IrishTheFrenchieAugust 3, 2024

Yes. The CAS hearings are public. That's how we found out precisely which DSD Caster Semenya has. Because he challenged it.

Carrots90August 3, 2024

Please consider making this a post!! Great read!

OdoAugust 3, 2024

I thought there were no direct links to social media?

Carrots90August 4, 2024

It depends on the circle

You can copy it (or screenshot) and put it in text , and then link in the comments

Some people archive and link to the archive

Read the rules before posting

JoediAugust 2, 2024

That was short and to the point and explained everything really well! Thanks for sharing ❤️

smash_cakeAugust 3, 2024

thank you. great thread

vulvapeopleAugust 4, 2024

All these untrustworthy organizations are behaving as though they haven't pissed away their credibility over the past 20-30 years. If the IOC weren't so dishonest about practically everything (including bending over backwards to allow TIMs to compete), maybe there wouldn't be so much controversy here.

DustyAugust 2, 2024(Edited August 2, 2024)

It would be the easiest thing in the world to do a quick cheek swab and show everyone that they have XX chromosomes and let that be the end of it. In fact they don't even need to do more tests, they just have to give permission to the two labs (from two different countries) that already did the tests for the IBA to release their confidential results and it would put the matter to bed entirely.

The fact that they refuse to release the results or submit to another simple cheek swab, and have even declined to appeal the IBA decision (which would have made their test results a matter of public record) should be proof enough for anyone following this debacle.

They're both men. End of.

IrishTheFrenchieAugust 3, 2024(Edited August 3, 2024)

EVERYONE in Khelif's life knows he is male and if he has a DSD, they've known since puberty.

His parents know. His coach knows. His doctor knows. His country knows. The IOC knows. The IBA knows. His opponents know. Everyone watching knows.

They are lying right to our faces and telling us to not believe the evidence of our own eyes. It's gaslighting in the extreme and it is INFURIATING.

hellamomzillaAugust 2, 2024

Because the religion is that a man can be or do whatever he wants and hiding behind “medical privacy” and “dignity” and accusing anyone who disagrees of attacking and harming individuals is how they rig the system.

Also, these athletes all have to stand naked in front of a stranger and pee in a cup for doping tests. That’s how they know these two male boxers have elevated testosterone.

But sure, the indignity of a cheek swab and some clear guidelines about who is disqualified for not being female is too much.

DoomedSibylAugust 2, 2024

Also, these athletes all have to stand naked in front of a stranger and pee in a cup for doping tests. That’s how they know these two male boxers have elevated testosterone.>

If that’s the case, wouldn’t someone have noticed male genitalia? Even ambiguous genitalia? Or is it like a drug test for employment and you’re allowed in a stall but the monitor is outside the stall?

But yes, even if someone noticed something off, men are allowed to do pretty much whatever they want. Your point is well taken.

hellamomzillaAugust 2, 2024

They’re not tasked with determining the sex of the competitor, just to make sure the athlete is urinating.

DoomedSibylAugust 2, 2024

Is their testosterone elevated above female levels? Above PCOS levels? Are their levels high enough to indicate either a testosterone producing tumor or maleness? Does anyone know?

OxyToxinAugust 3, 2024

Has anyone run Lin Yu-Ting's or Imane Khelif's faces through Giggle's facial recognition software yet? That would be fun to try out.

aelloAugust 2, 2024

Because if they came out and told everyone that I-man is a typical biological male liar with XY chromosomes and fully developed penis and testicles, they would have to disallow him from competing since his claim was that he was "assigned female at birth" and raised as a girl. They would have to admit that XY chromosomes make you a man even if you say you are a woman, which is woke blasphemy and would set a precedent that TIMs would also not be allowed to compete in women's sport. I do not believe that I-man has a DSD, but even if he did, he should not be allowed to compete against women. It's a cover-up to hold up the precedent that men can compete as women as long as they say that they are women, no other evidence required.

DoomedSibylAugust 2, 2024

They would have to admit that XY chromosomes make you a man even if you say you are a woman, which is woke blasphemy and would set a precedent that TIMs would also not be allowed to compete in women's sport. I do not believe that I-man has a DSD, but even if he did, he should not be allowed to compete against women. It's a cover-up to hold up the precedent that men can compete as women as long as they say that they are women, no other evidence required.>

Absolutely. This is a crazy time to be alive. Worst of all is that most people know what sex they and others are. Sexing other people is instinctive and at least partially unconscious. I very much doubt that anyone is looking at the two boxers in question and saying female at the gut level. Yet entire societies are willing to shout that a man is a woman from the rooftops.

It’s like we’ve gone collectively insane on this and so many other issues.

AmareldysAugust 3, 2024

Apparently a statement was released

TheWatcherAugust 3, 2024

by who? link?