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Book ClubsWomen's Rites, Women's Mysteries: Intuitive Ritual Creation by Ruth Barrett | Introduction and Chapter 1
Posted March 29, 2024 by Tortoisemouse in Books
Title edited March 30, 2024 by a moderator

Welcome to the first discussion post for Women's Rites, Women's Mysteries: Intuitive Ritual Creation by Ruth Barrett.

In this post, we are discussing:

  • the Preface to the 3rd Edition (if you have it)
  • the short Introduction and
  • Chapter 1: The Power of Women's Ritual.

Please share your thoughts in the comments.

We will read and discuss together over the course of the next week, with a view to launching discussion of Chapter Two the following weekend (Friday counts as weekend for me!!)

Tagging those who have shown interest: @TSTat1400 @PickettyWitch @Committing_Tervery @Yarrowheart @Itzpapalotl @Amareldys @Hollyhock @a_shrub @Jehane @CompassionateGoddess @Unicorn @ActualWendy

53 comments

ActualWendyMarch 30, 2024

I read this book when first published, and am enjoying reading it again. I love Ruth’s writerly voice, and I have also listened to her sing and speak at conferences. She feels like a big sister to me, although I think we’re around the same age. She has a strength that comes from a lifetime of living a sovereign life.

As I read, I remembered that my Dianic practice pre-dates Ruth’s lifetime of practice and teaching and coven formation. I was first in a coven that was founded by women who had been taught by Z Budapest in Los Angeles, and the Feminist Book of Lights and Shadows was our only book. Back then we created rituals around the 8 holidays, and the full and new moons. We knew about the Maiden, Mother, Crone stages of life, but the “Five Blood Rites” wasn’t a thing yet. I have a feeling this is more important to non-lesbian Dianics.

Regarding The Western Mystical Tradition

Ruth quotes; According to the Matthews, “the real secret about the mysteries is that they cannot be communicated by one being to another,” and “while keys and guidelines to this knowledge can be given, the actual knowledge is revealed to the initiate by personal experience and revelatory realization”

Her point is that we must experience, we can’t hear about it in a sermon, or study it in a book. This is true. (Her citation of the proverb about leading a horse to water isn’t accurate. That proverb means you can’t make someone do something they don’t want to.) What is accurate is that when women learn about women-only ritual, centered on female as creatrix, we become thirsty. We discover a font of wisdom, joy, and healing within us.

What Ruth doesn’t say, and I think we may have a difference of opinion here, is that at the heart of the Western Mystical Tradition is a culture of ritualized, shared, psychedelic experiences. There is no other part of human life like a psychedelic experience, and humans have likely known this for thousands of years.

While I have had many, many experiences of personal gnostic revelation that did not involve sacred elixirs such as psilocybin mushrooms, the evidence that the Western Mystical Tradition has a psychedelic secret at its core has convinced me that there once existed women-centered institutions of mystery offering healing and connection. Eventually, these institutions were taken over by men, as we know.

(I suppose I need to say here that I do not encourage anyone to violate men’s laws, and that in much of the world psychedelic substances are highly illegal to possess. I’ve gotten in trouble on Ovarit for suggesting activities that are normal for me, such as taking your shirt off at the beach.)

I will likely write more about the Western Mystery Tradition as we read the book together.

BeachBleachApril 21, 2024

There are places to go where they have real Mexican shamans and do Bufo trips. That is 5-MeO-DMT. A real whoosh into outer space, with guidance from the shamans.

UnicornApril 1, 2024

What Ruth doesn’t say, and I think we may have a difference of opinion here, is that at the heart of the Western Mystical Tradition is a culture of ritualized, shared, psychedelic experiences. There is no other part of human life like a psychedelic experience, and humans have likely known this for thousands of years.

The author did have a paragraph that mentioned not requiring drugs or alcohol to do rituals and that rituals only "succeed" when done sober that made me kinda go "hmmm I dunno...". I agree with you, when Ruth was writing about personal experiences and the concept of "mystery" and how no one else can know until they experience it (or something, I'm paraphrasing off memory), I was very much reminded of psychedelic trips (psilocybin). Those experiences are indescribable in feeling, like I can describe a psilocybin trip, but my words could never fully evoke the feelings and impact of the experience.

At the same time, I'm not saying psychedelic drugs are "necessary" or "required" for spirituality, just that those experiences do unlock some levels of being/thinking that just isn't possible to experience otherwise.

Tortoisemouse [OP]March 31, 2024

Thank you for your comment and for your participation. I think I am not alone to say it is an honour to have you among us with your long heritage and experience with the Dianic Tradition.

What is accurate is that when women learn about women-only ritual, centered on female as creatrix, we become thirsty.

This is so true. It is as though there is something many of us women are missing, and hungering for, without even knowing it until we catch a glimpse/taste.

I am fascinated by what you say about psychedelic origins of mystical experience and hope to hear more.

I understand what you are saying about disrobing at the beach. When I can get to a remote enough beach early enough to have it to myself, I will swim completely naked in the sea. It feels normal and it makes swimming in bathing clothes seem unnatural and weird, as well as the strange awkward dance of trying to keep certain parts of the body covered with towel/clothes as we dress/undress in nature that is wild/free/unselfconscious. The waves, the seals, the gulls do not care; why should we? (I mean, I know why, and of course I respect the sensibilities of those around me when I'm not alone, but my point is it feels artificial).

TSTat1400April 1, 2024

When I go into my hot tub (far cry from the beach!) I go in naked. It feels really weird to go in with a suit when in the company of friends.

CompassionateGoddessMarch 30, 2024

Can you explain what the “Five Blood Rites” are? I think it is so cool that you’ve been in a coven founded by women who were taught by Z Budapest! You must have a lot of knowledge and experience.

TSTat1400March 30, 2024

Being born, menarche, giving birth, menopause, and death.

DonnaFeminaMarch 31, 2024(Edited March 31, 2024)

Ahh sister it is nice to read this here. I spent well over a decade in an eclectic Dianic coven that was at least half lesbian and had several sister circles across the country. The beginning of the end of that circle was the admission of a "nonbinary" woman whose personal discomfort with words like "sisters" somehow meant that all 70+ women at the annual gathering of all the circles had to say "siblings" instead.

ActualWendyMarch 31, 2024

Yes admitting men was the end of the last Dianic coven I was involved with. Complete ideological takeover. It was stunning. Now I understood how ancient women’s mystery regions could be taken over. I have witnessed it.

CompassionateGoddessMarch 31, 2024

That is awful. Males should never be allowed into Dianic spaces.

DonnaFeminaApril 2, 2024

Awful. I'm sorry to hear that. Were the leaders of the group ideologically captured, or what?

CompassionateGoddessMarch 31, 2024

Changing the whole group dynamic like that must have upset a lot of the women in the group and caused resentment. I’m sorry to hear that happened.

CompassionateGoddessMarch 31, 2024

“The impact of unmarked passages on our lives is impossible to comprehend fully. However, many women are creating rituals to help heal and change those past attitudes or beliefs that affect present consciousness. We are magically reaching back into the past, revisiting these experiences, making different decisions based on new awareness, and marking milestones that were not recognized as significant at the time.

There are many examples of significant passages that most women don't usually consider as occasions for ritual, among them:

  • Weaning a baby
  • Releasing or grieving after a miscarriage or abortion
  • Becoming a grandmother
  • Choosing not to become a biological mother
  • Experiencing the birth of a sibling
  • Starting a new career
  • Becoming an adoptive parent (which may include the adopted adult or birth mother)
  • Healing from an illness or accident
  • Preparing to make love
  • Becoming clean and sober
  • Healing the ‘empty nest’ when children leave home
  • Preparing for surgery
  • Forgiving oneself for past behavior
  • Releasing your womb after a hysterectomy
  • Releasing your breast/s after a mastectomy
  • Coming out
  • Divorcing or separating
  • Quitting a job
  • Finding the first grey hair
  • Healing from childhood abuse

Any event that a woman finds personally significant is worthy of ritual attention.” (pages 30-31 of chapter 1)

The quote directly from the book above lists some examples of life events that many women don’t have a ritual for. For a lot of women, these are significant and life changing, but we as a culture and society barely acknowledge these. I think I could personally heal if I made rituals for some of these. What do you ladies think?

TSTat1400April 1, 2024

Absolutely, I believe rituals can be healing. In terms of the things you listed, I have told my mentees at work many times that their best advocate is themselves; it occurs to me that a similar statement can be made for women to celebrate their lives - we are our own best celebrants!

Each human is an infinitesimally small part of the Universe that has achieved consciousness and is perceiving itself. We are not separate from the Universe, we are one with it. It is a great Mystery and wonderous thing. It is our right, perhaps even our birthright, to celebrate our existence and our perception of it as we see fit and valuable.

I completely agree!

a_shrubApril 5, 2024

When I think of all of them on the list that I'd want to do retroactively for myself, I start to worry that I'm being selfish. Good ol' patriarchal programming, I suppose.

Tortoisemouse [OP]April 6, 2024

I know exactly what you mean. I've started building a kind of altar and although I'm skipping ahead here in the book, one of the things Barrett says is how important it is to have images of the Goddess (of the female) on your altar because we are so used to males being the objects of spiritual worship.

When I started looking for images/figures to represent the Goddess I suddenly felt like: "How dare I!! Who am I to put images that look like me on an altar!! Who am I to start essentially worshipping myself"" It felt really radical and extreme, the idea of worshipping or honouring a female form.

And then it hit me: this is just what it's like for all men, all the time. It's just normal for them that God is a man, that Jesus's body is displayed in full semi-naked detail all over the place, same with the Buddha. It's just normal that even the unreligious invoke the name of a male God all the time ("Oh my god look at that", "Jesus!!!" etc.)

Why shouldn't women have this for ourselves? But it honestly feels so radical and strange, to prioritise women, goddess, female.

You and I definitely aren’t selfish for celebrating events/moments in our lives that we deem important/noteworthy/valuable. It is necessary women do this because it helps us to better take care of ourselves. If we as women take care of ourselves first, then we can help and take care of others and the world. Everyone wins when we as women focus on ourselves and celebrate ourselves.

Tortoisemouse [OP]March 29, 2024(Edited March 29, 2024)

My expectations of this book were not high. I have limited patience for "new age" stuff and the self-declared Wiccan devotees that I've met have not exactly had blazing intelligence. But something made me want to learn more about "Dianic Witchcraft" and "the Goddess". I didn't know at the time what that thing was, but I know now. (I may also have been swayed by the dog on the cover who looks exactly like my Whippet).

The book arrived, with its cover artwork of a young, beautiful priestess/goddess figure in sexily revealing garments exposing the bare swell of her breast, and with that sighthound gazing into her eyes, and the title featuring the word "Women" not once but twice. My Nigel said "I bet most people who buy that book are ***transwomen"""". I laughed and said, "yes, probably". I felt sad knowing that was probably true, but still I felt deeply drawn to find out more about women's rituals.

Imagine my delight and amazement to find the 3rd edition preface containing these words:

Since this book's original publication in 2004, exclusively female-centered rituals and even the right for women to gather have been under increased attack and eliminated by so-called progressives and transgender activists as being "non-inclusive". The foundation of the Dianic tradition has always been exclusively for and about natal women and girls, and not about males or males who identify as women.

I was like: YAAAASSSS!!!!!!! And then I was like, "well this book was recommended on Ovarit so I should have known it wouldn't contain any gender nonsense". But still, I didn't expect such an explicit and uncompromising statement right at the very start of a published book. Looking again at the reviews on Amazon I saw at least one reviewer self-righteously returning the book in disgust after reading that bit LMAO.

Huge respect for Ruth Barrett already.

Chapter One (and subsequent chapters) employs a familiar technique of launching straight into an anecdote/narrative before making a point. This is a very 'American' approach and feels a bit cringey for a British reader, but I got around it by skipping to the factual bit and then going back and reading the story part in context.

I loved the idea of "Female Sovereign Space" that is central to Barrett's approach. Female Sovereign Space means that women take full ownership and control over the space they inhabit for their ritual. That means no men are allowed and women take up a position of authority and power. She says, "Sovereignty meaning 'having independent authority, the right to govern itself, unlimited power or authority, possessed of supreme power, enjoying autonomy"' and "I posit that female sovereignty and female sovereign spaces are necessary for women to truly become free and heal from our generational inheritance of sex-based oppression and gender stereotypes."

This is really the crux of Barrett's message: that through creating, defining and owning a space for ourselves, women can literally create new ways of conceptualising themselves, their embodiments, their experiences, and so begin finally to rise above the oppression and injury done to us by patriarchy.

However, on first reading, this is a very abstract idea and you kind of wonder where Barrett is going with this, what it means, and when/whether she's going to tell us what to do. You also kind of wonder how this can even be possible. How can we rise above the oppression without literally overthrowing patriarchy? How can mere symbol and gesture have that kind of impact? I was interested but sceptical. Having read further on in the book and then gone back to this chapter and read it again, it makes more sense but there's a lot to take in all at once without much of a practical idea of what it all means. I think this is inevitable though, and I think it is good to have this introduction even if it's overwhelming at first.

The idea of putting women at the centre, of women taking and owning the space and themselves, even if it's just a small space for a small time, is the start of the process.

"Within Dianic Wiccan rites, the focus is on each woman's own experience, opinions, ideas and feelings, and not those of her spouse, lover, family or friends. Within Dianic circles, women have the opportunity to discover their true selves, apart from the constraints of patriarchal culture".

I found this idea SO POWERFUL. The idea that here is a schema of human ritual and meaning-making that is purely and solely for and about women. That allows us to learn to carve out a space where, if only for that small space and time, we are literally free of patriarchal oppression.

It's difficult to talk about rites and rituals without thinking about religion. Many women will likely turn to Wicca or witchcraft precisely because they want to escape the toxicity and tyranny of organised religion. And yet the reason organised religion is so hugely successful and holds so many people in its sway, is because most humans crave and seek collective meaning. We seek out stories that explain the world and reveal something deeper, more purposeful. There is something about the human psyche that seems universally to crave this.

As I read this chapter I realised that it was precisely this craving that had drawn me to this book and to the Goddess specifically. I had a subconscious hunger for a higher Female authority, and a need for ritual and meaning. I recently abandoned completely my Catholic faith, partly through learning that my heritage is in fact half Jewish. (This is a different story but through genetic testing I found my grandmother and by inheritance my father are Jewish, something we always suspected but never knew for sure. This made me question my racial and religious identity.) Getting deeper into Radical Feminism (thank you, women of Ovarit) also set me up perfectly to finally realise the toxicity of male centred religion (which is to say, all mainstream Abrahamic religion).

Stories are so powerful. We create our sense of self and of the world, through story-telling. Religion maintains its hold over people through story-telling, and yet the stories of the Jewish, Christian and Islamic religions tell overwhelmingly of the inferiority, deficiency and even the evil of women. The saviour figures, the creator figures and the mystical visionaries are invariably male. Even in Hinduism most female deities are relegated to "consorts" of their male companions.

"Dianic tradition speaks to becoming conscious about how growing up in a largely female-hating culture affects our daily lives, and our feelings about being female"

Yes, exactly. Because of the female-hating culture we all grew up in - and it was particularly vicious and explicit in my family of origin - I spent most of my life in a state of deep ambivalence about even my very existence as female, uncertain about what "being a woman" even means, and even though I acted confident, independent and strong, deep inside I believed I was inferior.

What I needed were stories about the nature and meaning of female power. I needed great, powerful, huge role models who were FEMALE. I needed to create a new way of seeing, thinking and being female, through stories just like the stories we heard in church/temple/synagogue from our earliest years.

"Women embody the Goddess as Creatrix. Physically, we embody the power of the Goddess in Her capacity to create and sustain life. Our wombs are the living metaphor of Her creative potential and thus are the very source of our creative power. Even if a woman has had a hysterectomy, the power of her womb will continue to carry within her the energetic potential of its creativity."

Of course! It is WOMEN who create and so of course it is a GODDESS who is the great Creatrix. And we women carry within us the power also to create. We are all goddesses in a way. We are all in the image of The Goddess who creates all, who creates even Herself.

I found this SO PROFOUND. I cannot emphasise this enough.

The realisation of WOMB AS METAPHOR absolutely blew my mind...... ESPECIALLY with my Catholic heritage, worshipping the sacred, life-giving blood of Christ. NO. It's not the blood of a MAN that is sacred and life-giving. It's the blood of WOMEN. It is not a MAN's physical suffering, bleeding, and then not-dying that saves us all from death. No. It is the blood of women's WOMBS that is the sign and symbol and reality of creative life-giving power. For much of their lives, women bleed (and in many cases suffer) monthly without injury or death. It is women's wombs that bleed and contain within them the potential for the next generation, and the next. It is the blood of women that is the sacred mystery of everlasting life.

Men have stolen this idea, this story from us, selling us a tale of a male god that creates (what a travesty) and (in the Christian tradition) a male son-of-god who bleeds, whose blood and body nourish us (in the eucharistic ritual) and who confers life everlasting.

Simultaneously as this story, this birthright, this BLOODRIGHT (and blood-rite) were stolen from us, at the very same time, the narrative was twisted further to make our blood and our bodies shameful, dirty, disgusting, evil. To make us fear and hate our very life-giving power. What a terrible tragedy this is.

As Barrett tells us:

The circle of womanhood is the very circle of life itself, for it is upon our sacred womb blood, the generative gift that is passed from mother to daughter, that human life depends. While all human beings celebrate this mystery, standing humbled by the enormity of it, only women can fully embody the experience"

I could write so much about this chapter and I've not even addressed the first half of it yet! But I think for me this was the biggest shock and revelation. It has genuinely changed the way I think about myself and my connection with other women and my connection with the earth and existence and everything.

"Patriarchy is the paradigm of our world, the filter through which we view and experience life as compartmentalized and disjointed, rather than whole and interdependent. Until we become aware that patriarchy is both an internal and external system, and work to heal from its effects, we will continue to think and behave out of this patriarchal paradigm. Contemporary women's rituals seek to change our consciousness from patriarchal conditioning by restoring value to women's lives [...]"

So Barrett has presented us with the dilemma (we are trapped in this culture that allows us no sovereignty, not even over ourselves). And then she begins to give us the solution: Ritual.

"In short, ritual is enacting meaning"

She argues that through ritual we can actually, in a very real way, begin to create a new meaning, one that serves and recognises and honours women.

I have to confess I found parts of this difficult to understand the first time of reading. But on repeat readings, especially in the context of the later, more practical chapters, it has a direct force of truth that is really invigorating. For example, I didn't understand what she meant here:

"In ritual making, symbols are the language we use to convey the messages we choose to internalize to bring about transformation."

But reading to the end of the chapter it becomes clear what she means: by interacting with literal objects that represent something important to us, or by moving our bodies or vocalising in a certain way, we can send a message deep, deep into our subconscious mind. A message that can counter and over-ride all those harmful women-hating messages that have been poured into us from birth.

This feels really hopeful and really practical. It also resonates with a lot of the best therapy I have done: not just sitting around moaning about the past, but DOING and BEING in ways that keep us present while simultaneously acknowledging fully and completely the harms of the past, and crucially reframing them, not just re-living them, and thence healing from them.

At this point in the book, though it still feels very abstract and more than a little daunting. How on earth am I supposed to do this incredible thing all by myself, with no support or training, with no "therapist" or priest to guide me?

I am looking forward to reading the next chapters with you, my sisters, and hope we can support each other as we seek and enact meanings for ourselves, together and separately.

P.S. It wasn't until I was a fair way into the book that I realised the woman on the cover was Artemis (Diana) with one of her hunting hounds. Absolutely awesome Goddess.

ActualWendyMarch 30, 2024

Thanks for starting this thread. I haven’t been this excited about something on Ovarit, ever.

What Barrett teaches about Dianic magic is very practical: doing and being in the present moment.

You don’t need a therapist or a priest, or a high priestess. But it definitely is better with a circle of women around you. When the internet first started in the 90s many solitary witches found each other and became the “cyber witches” mentioned in the early seasons of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. You may have started something here with this book discussion.

CompassionateGoddessMarch 31, 2024

I think creating healing rituals that aren’t obsessive could provide some relief for OCD, at least for me, if they guide me to stay and be in the present moment.

LilithMarch 30, 2024

Thank you for this thoughtful review! I also feel a strong pull towards a female creator. I spent some time studying Wicca in my teens. It was fun to try the spells, which is what most of the books are all about with scant mention of anything deeper than wish-fulfillment. I also feel hopeful reading about the creation of female space and self-transformation through ritual and symbol. That's beautiful and meaningful and unique to Dianic Wicca. I look forward to reading more!

salty-tomorrowMarch 30, 2024(Edited March 30, 2024)

Ooh ooh include me!! I bought it last month but I’ve only made it like 20 pages in but looking forward to hearing from everyone!! And hopefully it can encourage me to make more progress…

My only comment so far—how refreshing to read a book about women's mysticism that explicitly says men are not women! I have read so many “witchy” women’s books that have their obligatory trans paragraphs that make no sense in the context (trans people were probably killed in the European witchcraze??? 😂).

Can’t wait to read further with you all :)

Tortoisemouse [OP]March 31, 2024

Yes!! Please join us @salty-tomorrow !!!

I completely agree. I cheered aloud when I opened the book and read those words in the Preface. Real witches have never shied away from being unpopular and saying what they believe instead of what they are supposed to say. That's probably why they were denounced as witches (in the negative sense) in the first place. We are all witches here :)

Keep reading, because it gets even better. I never dreamed there was a whole spiritual movement that was organically connected with Radical Feminism. It is awesome and I feel like a tree receiving sweet summer rain from the skies for the first time.

CompassionateGoddessMarch 31, 2024

Keep reading! 😀

salty-tomorrowMarch 31, 2024

Okay okay now I’m 30 pages in!! Lol thanks for the encouragement, I’ll keep at it!

UnicornApril 1, 2024

@TheChaliceIsMightier I noticed the back of this book has a positive review from the author of The Chalice And The Blade! I thought that was cool. So I thought of you. :)

So I found my copy of this book today in my bookshelf. I bought it used several years ago and hadn't looked through it. Now that I have, I noticed the first page was signed by the author to a woman at Amazon Fest 2016! Woah!! So cool. 💕

My copy is from 2006, so idk how different it might be from the latest versions.

Introduction: I really liked learning the history of Dianic witchcraft and the author's history. I wonder about how she was able to work with a bunch of feminist women new to magic, that sounds like an interesting story. Personally, I'm probably not gonna reading from the perspective of becoming a Dianic witch, because I don't know how I feel about "goddess-only" worship (I don't really fully believe in worship of any "human-centric" beings, female or male), but at the same time, I totally understand why some women want to have female-only spiritual worship. I am more interested in this book just to learn more about Dianic witchcraft from like an "outsider"-ish perspective (and also because of the feminist connotations in it).

Chapter 1: I was initially a bit concerned about how "giving birth/lactation" is one of the five "blood mysteries." Mainly because the other four are not optional (birth, menarche, menopause, and death) so it felt a bit to me like the implication was that giving birth is "expected." At the same time, I also know to not include such a passage would be a disservice to how important it is that women do create, birth, and nurture life. So I assume it is meant to be explained as an optional, but meaningful, part of womanhood. There was an interesting note elsewhere about how even if a woman does not have her reproductive organs, she still has the "power" from them, so maybe there is something similar going on here, idk.

I like the section that explains that Dianic tradition is solely about women's bodies, life passages, and cultural experiences. I think it is like a "group" form of introspection. I remember someone on Ovarit asked something along the lines of "if we had equality of the sexes, would we still have feminism?" and I recall saying yes, because as a sexually dimorphic species, it would be important acknowledge and respect our sexual dimorphism and our unique life experiences as female humans. So this Dianic traditions explanation kind of reminds me of that.

The "Dualism and Gender Stereotypes" section is BASED. 🙌 I love it.

The section on how God is not ignored, merely just not focused on, was really interesting to me. I didn't know there was an acknowledgement of male existence in Dianic witchcraft, so that's neat. I like how it's just like "women are my priority" and firmly has that boundary. That's great.

I loved the section that effectively shuts down the concept of sexist stereotypes in other Wiccan traditions. Love it. "Enforced gender stereotypes ultimately disempower everyone." Yes!

"Dianic witches envision a world where all human beings are whole unto themselves." And the rest of that paragraph about encouraging people to become whole and seek others who are whole is lovely!

I haven't heard of the term "androcratic" (male-dominated), I've only heard of "androcentric" (male-centered) so it was cool to see that distinction.

The fact that "choosing to not become a biological mother" was an occasion listed for a ritual was interesting to me. That's cool, since it implies there is an acknowledgement of childfree women in Dianic witchcraft.

For the exercises at the end of the first chapter, I thought about my hospitalization from over a year ago now. It felt like death, theft, and destruction. Lately, I have been considering it maybe like rebirth, or maybe a death of an old way of being. Kind of like the snake shedding its skin metaphor mentioned a few times. This is part of why I do not consider death as "bad" in my personal beliefs — death and its resulting decay becomes the soil from which new life grows.

Looking forward to chapter 2, thanks for making this bookclub! 💜

a_shrubApril 5, 2024

I think it is like a "group" form of introspection. I remember someone on Ovarit asked something along the lines of "if we had equality of the sexes, would we still have feminism?" and I recall saying yes, because as a sexually dimorphic species, it would be important acknowledge and respect our sexual dimorphism and our unique life experiences as female humans. So this Dianic traditions explanation kind of reminds me of that.

Oh, this is such a good point!

TSTat1400April 1, 2024

I think you and I had a lot of similar thoughts and responses to these first chapters. I agree with everything you wrote here!

Thanks for tagging me in this, I was trying to learn a bit about Dianic witchcraft a year or two ago but didn’t know where to look. This sounds great!

TSTat1400March 30, 2024(Edited March 30, 2024)

I have read the preface, Intro and Chapter 1.

I found this to be an interesting read. As a Compassionate Satanist, I am focused on creating my own path, which is atheistic and non-superstitious. However, I want to include aspects that are not androcentric, and therefore I pursue studies of women's spirituality.

I found that I deeply agreed with parts of these chapters, while deeply disagreeing with other parts (I am eager to continue reading). I was extremely happy to realize that the author is gender critical, but that she also hopes for true egalitarianism. I appreciated that she did not reject men, but truly demonstrated how to decenter them. I really appreciated her rejection of gender roles and her striving that we accept ourselves and become whole human beings with all our facets.

As an atheist and a scientist, I found the concept of the Goddess something that I do not personally accept. I also do not accept the concept as I understand it of spell making, which seems to invoke superstitious ideas. However, it is valuable to consider how these ideas could be translated into things that make sense for me. I do believe in a mind-body connection, and I do believe in consciousness raising and guiding our thought to intentions and finally actions.

Like others have commented, some of her words were very powerful: the idea of creating a space free of men, even for a little while. I intuitively did this some months ago, creating a "witch room" in my home that is MINE, and my husband respectfully stays out of. I remember telling him forcefully "It's important" to stay out, without exactly knowing why. But having used the space, and read the book, I understand why now.

I do not jive well with the strong focus on the uterine blood so far. I am a child free woman, and so some of these rites that she focuses on (like childbirth) are not something I choose to experience. I do not love my uterus; it is something I have. I do not love my periods; in fact I suppress them medically. But this is my choice as a woman. I don't view myself as a Creatrix because I do not and will not have children. I wonder if the idea can be applied more broadly. I appreciated that she does mention women may choose to be child free.

I did, however, appreciate the "mind/body" split (not the business about the moon though, which seemed woo). We DO experience our embodiment in a patriarchal society. We do get angry because our bodies don't conform: not strong enough for bulky and heavy items that could be designed differently; cabinets to talk to reach...and a million other things far worse than that.

As a scientist, I didn't really like the broad and sweeping claims about the transformation of society from a matriarchal to patriarchal structure, and the associated story that we are reclaiming something. Perhaps it's true, but without some references to historical proof, it feels like an appeal to apologize for the fact that women deserve to center themselves in their lives. I also didn't think the argument was good to provide the definition of "patriarchy" (male dominated society) and then go on to say that no, she means that patriarchy is an autocratic and unequal society that encompasses racism, lookism, etc, while matriarchal society would of course be egalitarian. I don't think conflating terms does any favors when we fight for women's rights and equality, nor does assuming that women would just magically not set up power systems that would make haves and have-nots.

Beyond all that positive and critical feedback, though, I cannot stress enough: I deeply appreciated her point that women's lives have meaning and value, and that we can use ritual to mark that. We can celebrate our lives deliberately and thoughtfully, and more so, we SHOULD. I hope to learn more about this from the book. I have started my own practice of ritual, developing what feels right to me. I understand what she means when she talks about using physical symbols for concepts, as this is what I do as well. My rituals tend to be around marking astronomical events through the year and also on-the-fly dealing with emotions or issues that arise.

a_shrubApril 5, 2024(Edited April 5, 2024)

I do not jive well with the strong focus on the uterine blood so far.

As someone without children who'd imagined myself with a family when I was younger but am fast approaching the age where it'll just be impossible, this was also difficult for me. I don't think she means for it to effect an experience of shaming, but that's sorta my default reaction that arises in me when people speak of the creative power of uterine blood, my brain is like "but I've failed :("

Tortoisemouse [OP]March 31, 2024

Thank you, I enjoyed reading your thoughts on Chapter 1 and you've raised some really interesting points. I love how open-minded and receptive you are even though some of the writing conflicts with your own beliefs/values, and I appreciate deeply your commitment to truth and objectivity, both in how you appraise and in your willingness to share this.

I love that you have created a "witch room" in your house (and find it interesting that you call it this, given your rejection of goddess-worship, superstition etc.!). Although I am married I have always had my own bedroom and sleep alone. In my dreams I am free. Increasingly, I feel the need not to allow the males of my household enter. I still tolerate my son although he is on the cusp of puberty and once he is a man I don't know how I will feel.

I have always needed my own space/my own room and I have fought for it even though it goes against everything society says about what a happy couple/marriage should look like and what circumstances support a good sex life. Sex happens in my husband's room/bed. My own room and bed is place that is whole and unpenetrated. When I am in my room I live the life of Artemis, owned by none, belonging only to myself, with my female hunting dog, free from men, existing in my maiden form.

I do not jive well with the strong focus on the uterine blood so far. I am a child free woman, and so some of these rites that she focuses on (like childbirth) are not something I choose to experience. I do not love my uterus; it is something I have. I do not love my periods; in fact I suppress them medically. But this is my choice as a woman. I don't view myself as a Creatrix because I do not and will not have children. I wonder if the idea can be applied more broadly. I appreciated that she does mention women may choose to be child free.

I understand what you mean. Personally I LOVE the focus on uterine blood. I find it deeply healing and comforting after living an entire life of shame and humiliation from the relentless messages I picked up on how disgusting, shameful, repellent and vile my body is, and particularly menstrual blood.

I don't take the Dianic Tradition to be saying that our uterus and our menstrual blood is what makes us women/important/divine. It doesn't matter a jot if you do not menstruate for any reason, nor if you have had a hysterectomy. It doesn't matter if you hate menstruating. Rather, it is a recognition that without uterine blood none of us would exist. You, TST@1400, only exist because your mother birthed you and your mother could only birth you because her uterus was able to bear child and the menstrual cycle is necessary for that process to occur. This is true for every human being who has ever lived. I don't think it means we have to love our bleeding. Much of my discomfort with menstruation has to do with societal values but I believe there are some aspects of it that are just objectively bad. No amount of Goddess-worship will change the fact that it is painful, inconvenient, annoying, leads to anaemia and spoils one's underwear. In no particular order. I myself have recently had a Mirena coil mainly because I cannot bear any more super-heavy periods as I lose excessive amounts of blood that is unmanageable at times.

The point is, all life comes from the female and, in the case of mammals, that means from the womb and - again in the case of all mammals - the cycle of egg fertility incudes the outward sign of bleeding.

The whole point of Dianic Wicca is that the Female is the source of all life (a pretty obvious scientifically valid truth) and that as females ourselves we are representative both literally and symbolically of that life-generative power regardless of what we choose to do with that power. Diana herself is depicted as being with no man and having no children.

As a scientist, I didn't really like the broad and sweeping claims about the transformation of society from a matriarchal to patriarchal structure

I agree this could have been backed up more convincingly with research sources; however this book is not addressing an academic/scientific audience and Barrett does give some references for her claims (footnotes on pp. 18-19). My understanding is there is significant archeological/historical-cultural evidence that early civilisations were engaged in Goddess-worship prior to the emergence of male God centrality. I didn't find any passages in Ch. 1 where she claims a matriarchy would be a model of egalitarian harmony, I must have missed that bit or perhaps it comes later. I very much appreciate your point that women do not need an historical precedence, or any kind of "excuse" to claim and deserve to centre themselves in their own lives.

You are right that there are elements of "woo" and superstition. I quite like it, you can take it metaphorically or you can enter into an "immersive fiction" (to borrow Kathleen Stock's phrase) and actually I find it both fun and psychologically activating. I confess in the last few days I have picked some herbs under moonlight and put them on a table/altar in my room and I feel great satisfaction in having done so.

I look forward to reading the rest of the book with you.

TSTat1400April 1, 2024(Edited April 1, 2024)

I love how open-minded and receptive you are even though some of the writing conflicts with your own beliefs/values, and I appreciate deeply your commitment to truth and objectivity, both in how you appraise and in your willingness to share this.

Thank you! That is really kind of you to say, and I appreciate it.

I love that you have created a "witch room" in your house (and find it interesting that you call it this, given your rejection of goddess-worship, superstition etc.!).

For me, I believe there were women labeled witches because they had a knowledge of the natural world; who knew herbal medicine; who understood astronomy; who were scientists; and women who had wisdom; and women who had a healthy sexuality; and women who above all, made their own paths - in addition to those who practiced magic and Goddess worship.

My own room and bed is place that is whole and unpenetrated. When I am in my room I live the life of Artemis, owned by none, belonging only to myself, with my female hunting dog, free from men, existing in my maiden form.

I understand! I wonder how many women actually do something similar (have their own space).

Personally I LOVE the focus on uterine blood. I find it deeply healing and comforting after living an entire life of shame and humiliation from the relentless messages I picked up on how disgusting, shameful, repellent and vile my body is, and particularly menstrual blood.

I grew up with this. I have worked to deprogram it; but it does seem like a lifetime of work.

The whole point of Dianic Wicca is that the Female is the source of all life (a pretty obvious scientifically valid truth) and that as females ourselves we are representative both literally and symbolically of that life-generative power regardless of what we choose to do with that power. Diana herself is depicted as being with no man and having no children.

I'm going to chew on this a bit. I personally want to focus on the aspects of my being that are in addition to reproductive fertility. I think this is an area where Dianic Wicca and I will run parallel, but not together. I understand your point about creativity beyond reproduction, I will think about that.

I agree this could have been backed up more convincingly with research sources; however this book is not addressing an academic/scientific audience and Barrett does give some references for her claims (footnotes on pp. 18-19).

She generally does do a good job with footnotes, which is why I was surprised at the lack here.

You are right that there are elements of "woo" and superstition. I quite like it, you can take it metaphorically or you can enter into an "immersive fiction" (to borrow Kathleen Stock's phrase) and actually I find it both fun and psychologically activating. I confess in the last few days I have picked some herbs under moonlight and put them on a table/altar in my room and I feel great satisfaction in having done so.

Yeah, this is the challenge I give myself of seeing if there is a way of translating to something I find acceptable and valuable. But I think it is an important thing to do.

I look forward to reading the rest of the book with you.

And me with you!

CompassionateGoddessMarch 31, 2024

I agree, all women need to have a space away from men. It is great you have your own room for yourself only. I don’t want to reject men either. I want to decenter them from my life. I don’t want to be angry and in pain all the time because of men. I won’t be able to heal and be happy that way. What are your rituals like, if that is okay to ask about?

TSTat1400April 1, 2024(Edited April 1, 2024)

Sure, I can talk about them some. I think I have always had a little bit of a preference for them, but it's only within the last six months that I have gotten intentional about it. I have a long way to go on my journey.

The Satanic Temple has a destruction ritual, although I don't do it, one of my earliest (unrecognized) rituals was a destruction ritual. I was going through divorce and I desperately needed a ritual to help me move on. I took burnable items, like photos, and lit them on fire outside in a pile of rubble. I deliberately thought about cleansing and moving on. I chucked the rings into the canal, and I deliberately purged my space (including electronic) of reminders. It was cathartic. That was five years ago.

Now I have focused on marking time, and dealing with feelings that need dealing with. I had a winter solstice ritual that spanned the entire day, from saluting the sun at dawn, observing it at mid-day, gathering items for my ritual during the day, saluting the sunset, and then having an alter ceremony around the exact astronomical moment of the solstice. There was A LOT of meaning pumped into this one, so I may discuss it if you are interested.

I have done a spring equinox ritual focused on balance. And for other things, I do them spontaneously. I go into my room, where I have items (mostly rocks and gems, but not all) that evoke specific ideas and memories in me. They often focus around the natural world, like blue sky, rock for mountains, trees, sunlight, water. Some symbolize clarity and purity, some negative emotions, some human industry. I pick these items intuitively, and I reflect upon them. I let my subconscious take me on a journey. Sometimes I achieve a trance like state. Oftentimes I cry. When I am done, I am more balanced and in tune with myself.

Thank you for taking the time to share some of your rituals and your process with them. 💕

a_shrubMarch 30, 2024

Preface: I read the Introduction before the preface and worried briefly, but thankfully this cleared up most concerns that I had.

Introduction: This has been an emotional read for me, and I have paused a few times to muffle sobs and to blow my nose and try to compose my thoughts into something coherent. I don't reckon I've done very well at that, but, anyways.

I was raised to worship a male deity, and indoctrinated from my earliest memories with the fear of eternal damnation if I did not make myself a living sacrifice for his cause. I studied what they told me were his scriptures, reading every word of all 66 books multiple times over years of both daily devotional study and group discussion study. So many parts of it I have in my memory from either required memory work at school, or just the familiarity of frequent use. I have notebooks and fat binders full of sermon and homily and study discussion notes. I have read countless books about this male deity and how I should live with the knowledge of his sovereignty of all of creation, even getting into the weeds of Apologetics, reading the likes of Alvin Plantinga, Norman Geisler, William Lane Craig, etc. etc..

Thousands upon thousands of hours I have studied all things pertaining to this male deity, as the fear of hell made me no slacker. See Jonathan Edward's sermon Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.

Some years ago, I concluded that if all they said about the male deity and his demands on my life were true and what I should do, I would just have to accept that I was going to hell. Not that I didn't beg and plead and weep for mercy, but never was it bestowed upon me for any enduring length of time any blessed assurance of salvation. Never could I be 100% sure I had nailed down the correct soteriology so I could claim the promised propitiation through the blood sacrifice on my behalf in a manner that would not offend and result in my being eternally consciously tormented for... being created as a vessel of wrath. Or something.

And so it is against a very rigorous indoctrination that I undertake to read anything so evidently blasphemous.

But that is not the source of my fear or tears while reading this introduction.

I am afraid of having it done to me all over again. I am afraid to have hope. I am afraid to compare what I have thought and written and keep secret in my heart with what I will find in this book.

I cannot hold back the tears because the hope is written right there on the page, and I ... all I have is fear.

I don't think I've quite cried enough to be ready for reading chapter one, so that will have to wait for now.

ActualWendyMarch 30, 2024

Perhaps the fear is your friend. You have a powerful protector inside you. She does not want you to be fooled again.

It has been my experience that Dianic witchcraft taught me to turn around, and “face that fear,” as if I was looking at a strong friend who wants the best for me. Previously she stood behind me, whispering in my ear, invisible and unnamed. I created her from my own need, but as I grew into womanhood, and became a witch, I could befriend her, say her name, and know when I was encountering a mystery that was not a threat. Some witches call this friend The Shadow.

Tortoisemouse [OP]April 6, 2024

This was an amazing comment to read. Thank you so much for sharing this.

I think even for atheists, the dominance of a male deity in our Western culture has repercussions and influences that we can't even comprehend, they are so big. It's absolutely toxic for women.

I've been exposed to Catholicism at school but didn't have a religious home upbringing. I was taken to church mainly so my parents could get me into the good Catholic church. I have tried to really get into Catholicism at times because part of me craves meaning and spiritual connection (like all humans?) but it has always ultimately disappointed me.

However I want you to know that I feel absolutely excited and hopeful and uplifted by Barrett's book and my discovery of Dianic Tradition. Like, finally here is something for us. And you can make it as religious or spiritual as you like, or it can just be symbolic and metaphoric, or it can just be stories to counteract all the other God-based stories.

We might think we live in a secular world but we don't, and so to have a truly feminist option to take from whatever we feel we need, is really powerful and important for women.

ActualWendyMarch 30, 2024

Sister, you are not on this path alone. So many of us find Dianic witchcraft from the men’s religions that teach us to trust indoctrination over the evidence of our own bodies.

sealwomynApril 1, 2024

My sister, I have been right there with you. Always with the constant bible study and reading apologetics. It was like drinking poison and it took me a lot of cautious steps towards accessing scientific literature and scholarly feminist thought that echoed my own "blasphemous" insights before I could start getting those toxins out of my system. Internet strangers and all that but I am here if you ever want to commiserate.

Have you ever heard of Carol P. Christ? I'm reading her Rebirth of the Goddess: Finding Meaning in Feminist Spirituality right now.

Tortoisemouse [OP]April 5, 2024

Thank you for the book recommendation. The title alone tells me I need to read this!

LilithMarch 30, 2024

My heart goes out to you. May you cry your fill and then wipe them all away for good.

TervenRainbowsApril 5, 2024

Hello sisters,

Below are some of my thoughts/feelings from this week's readings. I wanted to ensure I was reading the book with a focus on my own insights firsts, so I haven't yet had the opportunity to read any of your comments. Therefore some (or all) of the below may have already been commented upon and/or discussed.

[Croning ritual description] [Page 1]

Barrett's description of the croning ritual is masterful as I felt like I was truly an in-person observer there.

The circle of womanhood is the very circle of life itself, for it is upon our sacred womb blood, the generative gift that is passed from mother to daughter, that human life depends. [Page 6]

I teared up on reading this. Hearing my menstruation referred to as "sacred" was deeply moving, and such a change from the traditional Abrahamic religious framing of menstruation as "unclean." (This is present in other religions too, for example Hindu, and one Native American religion that I heard from their elders on briefly).

I know that I felt shame and embarrassment around my menstruation at least at the start. I didn't want anyone to know, and felt embarrassed when purchasing menstrual products, and tried to silence the wrappers as much as possible when using them (or waiting in a stall until others had left). Such feelings only originated from the patriarchal culture we are surrounded by. I wish I had had this "sacred womb blood" framing when I was younger.

Women and girls should be honored during their monthly cycles, respected for the life-bearing and sustaining capacity it represents, instead of shuttled off to a cold, dreary, solitary hut as some cultures do. I would like to imagine how differently I would have felt throughout my life had my menarche been celebrated as a miraculous and wonderful thing; the first tendrils of womanhood taking root within me; honoring my monthly flow and the rich, life-sustaining blood emanating from me, serving as a reminder of my awe-inspiring capacity as a creatrix and nurturer of life, should I so choose.

I'm not sure what the future of this book/discussion may bring, but perhaps for one of my first rituals I may go back and honor that young girl in a way that did not (yet) happen for me.

Like a snake shedding her skin, consciousness reveals, unfolds, and expands with each experience of mystery. One stands in its presence, awestruck and grateful for the gift of living...By experiencing our own body as sacred, natural, beautiful, and whole, we are able to access all the resources within the body of the Goddess since we are reflection of Her...Women's rites reclaim what is naturally our own: our bodies, our wisdom, our intuition, and our power. In Dianic ritual...we feed each other the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge, the Apple of Wisdom, symbol of female wisdom and the mysteries of creation...[Via ritual/initiation] we are taking the conscious initiative to evolve ourselves beyond our patriarchal cultural and religious inheritance rather than allowing our evolution to e defined by others. [Page 8]

Again, I love the reframing of the religious symbols that have traditionally blamed and sought to punish women in the christian version of the Garden of Eden story. Here, however, the snake still shows us the path via ever-unfolding understanding, perfect for where we are at right now. This evolving consciousness reveals more and more as we eat (study, perform rituals/rites, take back our power) from the Tree of Knowledge.

a_shrubApril 5, 2024

I wanted to ensure I was reading the book with a focus on my own insights firsts, so I haven't yet had the opportunity to read any of your comments.

I had this same instinct and it's heartening to know that I wasn't alone or crazy in thinking this way!

and tried to silence the wrappers as much as possible when using them

Yes, very yes - I remember being mortified by the crinkling sounds of the plastic and tried to do it so very slowly, it was agonizing! I've been a bit better by telling myself "I wouldn't begrudge any other woman those sounds, so I shouldn't be ashamed", but it's still a work in progress.

I'm not sure what the future of this book/discussion may bring, but perhaps for one of my first rituals I may go back and honor that young girl in a way that did not (yet) happen for me.

*tears*

Tortoisemouse [OP]April 6, 2024(Edited April 6, 2024)

Dear Terven-Rainbows, I enjoyed reading your comment so much even though some of it was painful because yes I had these experiences too. Especially shame - crippling, horrific humilation and self-hatred - around menstruation. I felt so alone and uniquely disgusting. I felt betrayed by my own body. It was worst when I was a teenager, but even well into adulthood I feel deeply embarrassed if anyone, especially a man, sees that I have any equipment with me to deal with menstruation (e.g. even them seeing a clean unused pad is mortifying).

I have been planning my very first Dianic ritual and it's going to be a ritual to comfort my younger self in her pain and confusion, to show her the path to a different way of thinking (the path to the goddess) and to honour my first and continuing cycle of menstruation. This book will guide you but if you like I can share the process I went through of finding symbols, objects, words and metaphors, and perhaps you can create your own ritual or we can do one together? This seems such a common experience for women I can't help thinking there must be a market for women to come together and perform rituals like this. I still have a few things to buy and prepare but I plan to perform the ritual next weekend.

I love your comments about the snake and Tree of Knowledge. I hadn't properly taken in and understood that part of the chapter.

WhiteSowBlackMoonApril 5, 2024

Commenting to keep track of this (and to catch up)! I just ordered my book

a_shrubApril 5, 2024(Edited April 5, 2024)

After sufficient tears and preparation and noticing that I'd fall behind if I didn't read chapter 1 soon, I've now read chapter one. I wrote quotations from the book in my notebook and my reaction to them, so I'll just transcribe that.

... the woman being honored ...

Right out the gate, I feel the tears welling up as it seems an impossibly beautiful thing for a woman to be honoured, and for something as distinctly female as menopause. This must be too good to be true.

... adjustment period

Yes, I am definitely going to need at least one of those please. Probably several. If there is a multi-buy discount, I'll take as many as I can get my hands on.

... initiate ourselves ...

Very interesting concept which I've contemplated of my own accord recently. Seems very strange to find the idea externally.

... males who gender-identify as women

I might have to start calling them that.

... inhibiting capacity to become full humans ...

I feel like I could make a slight quibble here about already being a full human but having an inability to embody that, but the discomfort with this quite nebulous and maybe needs more time to percolate.

Those girls and women who don't attempt or choose to conform to those standards have to deal with the fallout of being different.

Yup, been dealing with that fallout alright.

... some men can become allies to women ... through suffering ...

Well, and this maybe explains why so many I've known haven't. It's usually about the time that there is something unpleasant involved that the men who've made such a big deal out of claiming to value me just up and disappear rather than endure suffering. I must admit to some resentment to what feels a bit like a "not all men" chastisement, but this is possibly because it's been some greater portion in my life that might as well amount to all of them *grumble, mumble, resentment*.

Mothers teach daughters to hide the evidence of their monthly cycle.

And aunts. And everyone. So much shame.

... resigned acceptance of miserable conditions ...

Yup!

... heal from internalized oppression ...

Reminds me of what one of my counsellors was saying about this. I think I would look askance at her, but this is possibly only because of how much I associate it with the whole "internalized transphobia" thing. Couple things to unpick there, I'm sure.

... we are changed when we return to the common sense world, and so is that world.

A painfully hopeful exciting prospect? Maybe? Possibly? Ow, my cynicism and resigned acceptance of miserable conditions.

... previous experience of religious rituals as meaningless ...

I suppose not necessarily all of them. Like the one where the flame is passed on candles until everyone's is lit - that was badass.

... ritualize passages that they deems as significant ...

... like going out my front door!

... speak spontaneously, as the Goddess moves them ...

Ugh, the tears welling up again!

Psyche is the part of our awareness and our being that resonates with symbols, myths, and stories.

I like definitions!

... to transcend linear time and help heal past experiences.

Immediately I thought of how to "multitask" for efficiency and do it by way of facilitating the time appropriate rituals of others that I missed. That may need a bit of picking apart, but fruitfully made me think of the following: "teach me how to celebrate you." I wonder at giving myself the job description "Ritual Witness" :P

... how others respond (or don't respond)

Ow. Lack of response is definitely my experience. Ooof, there's that crushed heart feeling in my chest.

Any Event that a woman finds personally significant is worth of ritual attention.

*rubs hands together gleefully*

And now to read the other comments.

Tortoisemouse [OP]April 6, 2024

Absolutely LOVED this comment!! Thank you so much for sharing your notes and thoughts.

I feel the same sense of wonder and hope and..... fulfilment at the whole idea that women and women's experiences and women's bodies are to be honoured and celebrated in a ritualised way. It feels magical and I haven't felt this excited about something for a long time.

Thank you for joining the book group on this journey.