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NSFW
DiscussionGyms that keep TIMs OUT
I made this NSFW so we can discuss these gyms with less chance of them being targeted with campaigns to change that.
My local YMCA requires TIMS/TIFS to use the private, family changing room rather than the male or female rooms.
Apparently the YMCAs in New York were targeted for this practice by TRAs, but apparently no one cares enough to protest in the middle of nowhere where I live.
I’d love to make a list of places women and girls can feel safe in the locker room.
"Men's Rights leering with 'welcome to manhood, makes you want to go right back, doesn't it? Can't handle it, can you?' instead of solidarity."
Why would you expect anything else from MRAs? 🤦♀️
"...when it is clear that the 'oh no we lost another hot lesbian!' thing is so vile in its obvious horny undertones..."
Where is anyone saying "hot?" Where are the "obvious horny undertones?" How do they see, "I'm saddened to see lesbians giving themselves health issues due to internalized misogyny and homophobia," and read it as, "I'm sad there are less hot lesbians?"
Yeah, the fact they expect solidarity from MRAs is as completely delusional as expecting a welcome from gay men at a bathhouse. And when they don't get any 'solidarity' from actual men, it ought to be a red flag that their identies as 'men' are all in their heads. Also, that poster's take on what 'male privilege' is had my head spinning, trying to follow her circuitous and convoluted reasoning.
The first post also mentions wanting people to "be attractive again to white famous women" 🤷🏻♀️ I don't know
These people just don't understand that huge numbers of "TERFs" are GNC women themselves, and that we fully support these young girls in their desire to reject femininity.
You don't have to be feminine or "hot" to be female, thank God.
My best guess is the misinterpret honest conversation about the long term effects of testosterone and unessecary surgery with being called ugly. You don't look like a man and your body is being harmed by hormones =/= you were hotter before. But there's also a lot of people who do mock looks online, and terf has become more of a catch all term for anything they consider transphobic (not kissing trans ass) so who knows who they are even talking about with a lot of this.
Srsly, I've been seeing TPAs call men terfs a lot lately
Lmao that was my favorite part bc it's so far out of left field. Like what?
So much of TRA rhetoric is just parroting blenderized talking points stolen from other groups with seemingly no comprehension of what they were actually being used to say in the first place, it's ridiculous. I like to visualize them as decorator crabs, and this is their equivalent of wearing a sea anemone as a hat.
The way they only see women as judging people by the same sexism men do is really depressing. This is what porn does to women who watch it.
These people are so goofy and backwards. Everything is "grooming" except for adults deliberately steering children toward transitioning. "TERF" spaces are attracting "cis" female abusers in droves but the very notion of a man pretending to be a woman in order to gain access to vulnerable women is so rare it's not worth talking about. I can't take these people seriously at all.
Why are so many TRAs (especially TIFs) depressed, then? Why all the suicide baiting? I thought being your ‘authentic self’ by lying to everyone that you’re something you’re not was supposed to make you happy?
Oh I’m sorry, you’re not supposed to face any criticism or questioning at all no matter what you do. Gotcha.
Mate, the call’s coming from inside the house.
The OP and another commenter both mention low self esteem and high suicide rates in women who want to be men, but anyone who points out the path they are on may not be a path to happiness is considered wanting to keep them unhappy forever. They are selling themselves a lie. The promise of a better future feels good now. Taking a step that feels like it's going to a better future can feel good now. But those short term feelings don't always translate into long term happiness.
They are stuck in this idea that we are the best judges of our own life. In reality, humans are very very bad at objectively looking at ourselves. Sometimes, a trusted person offering an outside opinion is needed. Humans will notoriously choose and justify short term happiness over long term. We develop all kinds of coping mechanisms for stress that hurt us and keep us from fixing deeper issues. We can lie to ourselves and we do so very well. If you've ever known an addict, you have seen this first hand.
The idea that there is "your truth" and that it's the one that makes you happy is so deeply concerning to me. It's such an escapist view. There is no your truth and my truth. There is only the truth and our feelings about it. And no, something isn't true just because it is scary like the OP says, but something isn't true because it makes you happy either. Sometimes the truth sucks, and when it does we want to shy away from it naturally because we are over confident monkeys who aren't evolved to cope with existential stress.
Op mentions being sad her friend is upset for realizing the harm that testosterone had on her body. But grieving is a normal part of being human and reacting to permanent change. Her friend isn't doomed to unhappiness any more than she would be doomed to unhappiness for accepting she is female. Short term sadness doesn't mean a path to unhappiness any more than short term happiness means a path to happiness.
no one warns them about the dangers of TERFs getting into their heads
Oh no, anything but young insecure girls foregoing amputations, plastic surgeries and fucking up their endocryne systems and turning themselves into lifelong medical patients! That's grooming!
Aren't you people the ones who censor any reasonable discussion that might even address any terf claims, and say to just block and avoid, lest they get logic-ed out of being trans? I don't remember seeing gay people put so much effort into censorship and avoidance because mere contact with homophobes is gonna convert them into being straight. And that's just sexuality - it doesn't even involve any harmful interventions.
And TERFS are far from the only negative influence, too
Surely they're the real villains, though? I think your brain would explode if you dared point out the precious men that you're centering as being a significant part of the problem. I'm sure all their dick and balls jokes and openly sexualising female body parts in the most degrading misogynistic ways have no bearing on TIF dysphoria though, not nearly as much as those other women who aren't bending over backwards enough to convince you that your clit is totally indistinguishable from a real penis.
baeddels and TIRFs
Not sure what this is referring to. Is TIRF trans-inclusionary radfems? What, did they not put in enough effort to call your vagina an extra asshole and force that into biology textbooks?
generic misandrists
Of course, those awful violent women always out there hating men for no reason, persecuting poor poor TIFfies and making them detransition from their violence and oppression! And I'm sure the fact that their boysouls did jackshit to protect them from all the misogyny, sexual harassment and abuse that they still suffer at the hands of your poor persecuted manbabies has has nothing to do with getting them back to reality where sex exists, huh? Nah, those men must've just been some bad apples, let's focus on those misandrist feminazis instead.
But what can you expect from someone who thinks TIFs get targeted the most by female chasers. Are they the ones asking for your nudes while opening with some porny misogynistic crap involving your vagina? (well, maybe you should be less of a typical woman and actually indulge them, from one bro to the other, yeah?)
Protip: it'll help you get some clarity once you stop roleplaying that being misgendered is misandry, or that being treated in misogynistic ways is also misandry just because you have a boysoul. Because I assure you, this roleplaying of yours has nothing to do with actual "misandry" that men experience for not being able to get away with rape, pedophilia, domestic violence, stalking and misogyny. You know, the shit their "rights activists" are actively advocating for?
gay cis men's occasional vitriol
Ah, occasional, thank god. I'm glad you're giving a benefit of a doubt to gay men. I just want to say, women centering men and trying to distance themselves from those crazy feminazis by being one of the good ones is a very dudebro thing to do. You're doing great 👍
Men's Rights leering with "welcome to manhood, makes you want to go right back, doesn't it?" instead of solidarity
Aww, what happened? You tried to gender-affirm yourself with MRAs and realised they don't give a shit about misgendering your hysterical girlfeels? That's not what was supposed to happen! They're supposed to be your bros! :C Aren't you all dudebros who are all together in this big men's issue of being sexualised for your breasts and not having penises and having vaginas and being treated as a sex doll and advocating that your vaginas should be used to assauge poor lonely incels on the cusp of violence who...wait a sec...
You even rush in to lick their asses when they whine about how lonely it is to not get sex or pregnancy from women (which of course you shouldn't have to provide them with because you're just ✨speshul✨ like that). I'm just shocked that informing them that your vagina is male didn't let you off the hook for needing to use it to be breeding stock for men! This is such misandrist misgendering transphobia! >:( I'm sure other MRA men can relate!
Oh, but thank god the worst thing you apparently experienced isn't that, no, the worst is telling you you don't have what it takes to deal with being a man...which you totally do! Because your masculinity is...uh, amputating your body parts because you're ashamed of being female...and uh, virtue signalling and coddling misogynistic men, while refusing to give them the sex they need from you. Hmm...Doesn't sound like your loyalty to the male cause goes particularly far.
Rather than admit that men have problems they face in life
Nah, girl. This is a problem for you. For men, isolation, violence, shitty attitudes, backstabbing, pressuring women into sex, narcissism, exploiting others (namely women's) emotional support and not giving anything back is, in fact, an inherent part of masculinity that they are not one bit shy about. In fact they're pretty adamant about how this is some inherent, crucial part of being male and join massive movements around this.
When your MRA buddies tell you you don't have what it takes, they don't mean that UwU you'd be wonewy and it'd be hawd on you. They mean that you would get your face bashed in by other men for talking back, and get raped and put in your place if they had their way. When they tell you you don't have what it takes, it's the "man" part that you don't have! By being female, you inherently exist for them to fuck, birth their children and be quiet. Oh, what's that? That would make you dysphoric? Awww :,C
If your MRA buddies just can't control their hatred and creepiness towards you, I'm sure they'll learn to respect you if you just put more effort into hiding the fact that you're female and do their bidding for their one-sided benefit! That's what real respect looks like for women! No woman has ever fallen for that, right? Women would never prioritise other groups' and esp men's well-being over themselves, right?
In the same breath as insisting men univerally have it better and why simply our existence is some escape route
Ok, if men have it so hard for shit like being lonely (which is sooo much worse than women being stalked and beaten and raped), go and shower them in the sex that they demand so much. They're the first to tell you they would prefer that and that they don't give a fuck about developing two-sided platonic relationships, or getting chummy with other men. So give them the pussy that your own ideology is promising them. Come on. You first.
By eroding an already vulnerable man's self-esteem
No man's self-esteem is vulnerable because he's actually a woman. LMAO at attempts to portray this as UwU such misandry! No wonder she's fucking deluded about what men actually mean when they talk about men's "rights".
Some of the tactics used and the modes of thought are close enough to what someone window shopping in the slave market would think
Women telling girls that ruining their health and amputating their body parts for male approval isn't a good idea are "window shopping for slaves"?? Meanwhile your MRA buddies telling you you should totally talk more about their male loneliness pandemic while they jerk off to rape and justify domestic violence just don't have enough faith in you because you didn't prove yourself to them yet, UwU
all of that in service of being "attractive again" in the eyes of much older, wealthier, sometimes famous, nearly always white women. If this were any other demographic, we'd be in an uproar.
lmao oh my fucking god, this is hilarious! Detransitioning is a ploy to create a class of supermodel slaves for a cabal of old, rich, white lesbian celebrities? What??? just....lmao what the actual fuck?? 🤣 (also lol at her acting as if people are in an uproar over the actually massive rampant problem of rich white men being pedos and rapists - wake me up when we stop justifying them holding almost all positions of power)
I'm trying to figure out where she's getting this batshit conspiracy theory from, because it seems even crazier than your average male-centering clap-trap. I can only assume it's a result of the liberal version of "men and women are equally bad" combined with MRA whining about a slew of rapist women terrorising men, and she thinks this is...actually real? So the thinking must go like, hey, rich white men are known for grooming and being pedos, surely by the law of equal badness, we must have a horde of invisible, undetectable rich predatory lesbians doing the same thing! And MRAs keep talking about their "crazy girlfriends" so see, they exist, they're everywhere! And if they leave no trace, that's just because the police and the courts are misandrist and covering it up! My bros would never lie to me, esp for misogynistic reasons!
The thing is, men know this is bullshit because they've literally never experienced the threat of women and they enjoy having women at their mercy. In fact they wouldn't like how humiliating being submissive to women would be for their male egos. The notion of "everyone is equal" doesn't hold appeal for them if it's not just a gaslighting tactic for a decidedly unequal status quo. There's a very obvious "wink wink" sentiment every time they talk about it. Women are the ones who get so obsessed with this that you literally can convince them of this, down to even making them believe men and women are equally strong, regardless of how at odds that is with reality. If they've never experienced it, well, they just happened to have never come across all these raping, sex-pest women! But men told them they're all around them, and they were just minding their own business when these crazy bitches stole their children and money from them, so surely they exist. Or, probably that terf that gave a TIF a stink-eye must've been wanting to murder her in the back alley, cuz that's what women PeOpLe do!
Men say this to shut women up about their issues, and then naive women come along and are all "OMG is that true? She really abused you?" "Uhhh yeaah, totally. She would like, yell at me (cough afterIletthekidsstarve cough) and hit me (cough afterIhither cough) and she even raped me that one time I didn't really feel like having sex but decided I might as well. No one believed me." "oh my god! This is a travesty! Us women need to do better and speak up for these most oppressed victimised men that no-one talks about!" "Uhh yeaaah! Yeah! Totally! Men's rights! Also, stop persecuting rapists and abusers, they were just kidding and misunderstood!"
Ok this rant is exactly what I needed today. Amazing. Thank you.
I have a particularly rabid hatred for these women as a former CoolGirl/OneOfTheBoys myself, lol. I know exactly what's going through their heads and the kind of self-deluded haggling they have to do for male approval.
Those are a lot of words from supposedly happy people.
Protip to lurkers: if you have to constantly tell others how happy you are, you probably aren't actually happy.
I stopped reading at "slave market"
They do a lot to appropriate the struggles of black people already, but you wanna compare yourself to a fucking slave??
Jfc I have no words
That came so out of left field. I'm not even sure what she was going for. Big bad terfs using gaslighting to make nice innocent trans people doubt themselves is like window shopping for slaves?
If anyone is looking to make a slave out of you, it's big pharma. If you absolutely must pretend you're black, you could at least take that BS to them. 🙄
Oh yeah, spot on. If there's one thing about radical feminists that can't be disputed, it's that we are all SUPER into fashion and being attractive to wealthy white women
Why, I was just placing my online Talbot's order when I said to myself, I said, "Rustic, c'mon, Talbot's is amateur hour. We're driving to Chico's bc I'll be god damned if Agnes is going to look better than me at the cotillion". I grabbed a handful of those generic strawberry candies that are in wrappers that look like strawberries, a couple of Werther's Originals, and a Centrum Silver and I took off
they'd initially hid their transitioning from me and other friends, trying to pass off as a cis guy
I'm sorry what, isn't that what the goal was like a mere 5 years ago? Being able to completely experience life as the opposite sex? And now you're taking someone doing that as insecurity?
You really can't ever win in this game, can you
Hmm. Some of the TCult are getting an inkling that there is something not quite right about how they message girls and young women to trans. It all seems so easily undone because so many detransitioners. Tras describe themselves spouting nothing but DARVO but can't put the name to it.
Back when I was still trying to 'educate myself' by reading what 'transpeople say,' I was struck by how all the men pretending to be women still sounded like men (me, me, me and the glory of me and my peen, and why won't someone fuck me) the women pretending to be men still sounded like women (worries about their partner and long involved analyses of relationships and feelings and longings and their internal processes, very little sexual content).
It has been 8 years, and I see that nothing has changed. But sure, it's terfs gatekeeping their illusory manhood.
I had the same experience. Well, I guess I started noticing fairly early on that men and women sound different, and that men have no deeper takes on issues beyond what their dicks want, but seeing that not even trans people (esp TIMs) can work past this is what really made me comprehend just how deep and insidious gendered socialisation is. Most people think female socialisation is just 👗💄💅 when it's sooo much deeper than that, and impacts masculine women just as much as feminine ones.
I practically never see men who make me think they're women, but I do see plenty of women who know how to fake misogyny, at least at first glance, courtesy of living in an androcentric society under loads of internalised misogyny, and being used to centering men (in fact you need to exert massive effort NOT to do it), and at the same time thinking they're super special and "one of the guys" for doing it because most other women, while brainwashed with internalised misogyny, aren't so invested in their self-hatred that they're actively running after men to lick their boots. It's just an extension of bog-standard female socialisation, but god do they love to milk it for "I'm actually a boy because no woman would center men, right?" points.
But it's always apparent that these women's hearts really aren't in it. It's hard to genuinely argue men's points beyond just parroting the most superficial quotes that men would clap at, because when you get down to it, you're arguing for getting raped, pressured into one-sided patriarchal sex, pregnancy and domestic servitude. And these women either desperately try not to think about this reality (because the only reason why they parrot men's arguments is to virtue signal for hypothetical fictional uwu lonely boys in exchange for getting OneOfTheBoys points like a good girl), or they think that they'll get special treatment either by straight up hiding being female, or throwing other less respectable women at men as better targets. They think that, if they validate men's BS hard enough, men will respect or give them special treatment, when you fundamentally can't achieve that by enabling an ideology that removes any respect from you by virtue of being female.
'Most people think female socialisation is just 👗💄💅 when it's sooo much deeper than that, and impacts masculine women just as much as feminine ones.'
Huh, it never occurred to me that that's what people often mean when they use the expression 'female socialisation' - but it makes perfect sense now that you've pointed it out. (I guess it hadn't occurred to me because I didn't have that kind of 'clothes and makeup' socialisation, but obviously had the real and important kind.) The 'socialisation' we're actually referring to is much more pervasive than that, and typically takes a lifetime to think through and get rid of (when we can without torpedoing our relationships and careers). That explains a lot.
I used to fall for it myself, because I thought, being masculine, that I was somehow inherently different from other women and that I am going to be treated differently. I was also convinced by the patriarchy that other women enjoyed being mistreated or at least don't mind it, or that the patriarchy isn't actually harmful to them because "they enjoy it", and I'm just a weirdo who should get special treatment because I don't want that, or relate to any of it. Only after asking the real questions and getting into radical feminism, and realising just how much of this image is male fantasy and women being brainwashed, did I realise that I'm really not that different at all from women (superficial presentation aside), and that we are all harmed by this equally. We had the same pressures ultimately, even if we reacted to them differently - feminine women being desperate to show they're attractive in order to have any value as a human being, masculine women desperate to hide being female in order to have any value as a human being. Feminine women centering men by being servile housewives for them, masculine women centering men by trying to be one of the boys and parroting male myths because they want to coddle and nurture men, aka "real people" (compared to those specific "women's issues"), because women are always supposed to prioritise others, never themselves.
And yeah, it's depressing that you can't get rid of it. The only way you might be able to avoid some of it is if you hide being female - but at the end of the day that requires destroying your body and health, and still won't get rid of the self-hatred and recognition of your body as lesser. Even if you hide being female with a baggy shirt because people can't see your body, you know you can't take it off, for example. Real equality would be if your female chest was treated the same as male chest. Amputating your breasts and being desperate to fuck up your health to hide being female doesn't actually make you immune to misogyny - it's literally caused by it. And it's no different than the drive of other women to hide their "shameful" body parts that men don't have to for social approval.
I think I went through something similar - the first part at least, not the second (probably because I just didn't care enough to wonder if other women enjoyed patriarchal constraints) - though I don't think it was because I was 'masculine' per se but because I was a person just like the people I was admiring/using as role models. It took a lot of life experience for me to realise that what worked for those other people (ie men) wasn't working for me, and that it was because I was female, not because of any other way I didn't 'measure up' (I had to have a few accidental controlled experiments to really understand that).
Another aspect of this issue is that men do indeed get praise and status from performing some 'feminine' behaviours - being an engaged parent, showing vulnerability, helping others (Christianity is all about teaching men to behave like actual human beings, ie to adopt 'feminine' behaviours, so often the most genuinely 'Christian' men exhibit behaviours we still associate with women) - but of course when we do them, in emulation of these men, no one gives a shit, it's only a big deal if we DON'T do them. For example, I was (and to some extent still am) a big proponent of 'servant leadership', as practiced by men - but a woman practicing 'servant leadership' gets zero credit or praise for it, she's just doing what women always do.