34
I don't care what you want, I care what women want.
And, fwiw, men also don't want to compete against women unless it's specifically a mixed-sex event, like mixed doubles tennis or mixed relays.
It's actually only a small minority of deranged men who feel pride when they beat a competitor they vastly outmatch.
pennygadgetMarch 14, 2025
This! Part of the reason the TIF Mack Beggs was kept off her high school boys wrestling team was because the boys didn't want to wrestle with a female opponent (even if she was roided out on testosterone). So she got to compete with girls while on performance enhancing drugs. And wanted to compete in a very close-contact sport with boys while remaining on her performance enhancing drug.
To nobody's surprise, when she got her wish in college, she was quickly benched and quietly quit the team not long after
shewolfoffranceMarch 15, 2025
Thank you, yes! Regular guys don't want this nonsense either. I imagine it was awkward for the guys on the swim team when Schuyler Bailar was in their locker room.
Whilst it might well be the case that boys at Mack Beck's HS and in Texas HS wrestling generally didn't want to wrestle with or against female opponents at the time Mack Beggs was competing in HS wrestling, I don't think the boys themselves ever had much say in the matter. The Texas school school officials who serve on the University Interscholastic League, the governing body that makes the rules for HS sports in Texas, are the ones who made the decision that Mack Beggs had to compete in the division of high school wrestling that Texas had created expressly for members of her sex.
Texas was actually on the cutting-edge and way out ahead of most other states when it started an offiicially-sanctioned high school wrestling program for girls on par with the high school wrestling it offered for boys back in 1999. Texas was only the second state in the US to do this. Hawaii started offering wrestling for HS girls on par with boys one year earlier, in 1998.
At the time Mack Beggs was wrestling in HS, only six states in the USA altogether had separate full-fledged, officially sanctioned wrestling programs for high school girls.
As of the 2017-18 season, there are six high school state associations which have officially sanctioned state high school championships for girls. The states with girls wrestling, with the year of their sanction, are Alaska (2014), California (2011), Hawaii (1998), Tennessee (2015), Texas (1999) and Washington (2007).
https://nwhof.org/news/high-school-girls-wrestling-continues-rapid-growth
My understanding is that ever since Texas began a separate full-fledged wrestling program for high school girls back in 1999, the rule in the Lone Star state was always that:
(g) Boys may not wrestle against girls, and vice versa. This prohibition is only applicable when the contest is held in Texas or in any other state that sponsors wrestling programs for both boys and girls
https://www.uiltexas.org/policy/constitution/general/nondiscrimination
The only issue that was unclear when Beggs started HS wrestling was exactly what criteria schools should use to determine which students are on the boys' teams, and which are on the girl's teams. In 2016, Texas decided to base it on the sex stated on students' birth cerificates.
BTW, in the states without separate HS wrestling for girls, it's typically been the case that girls were/are allowed to try out for boys' teams and they've wrestled boys in interscholastic meets if they made the team.
But today, most high school girls in the US don't have to go out for boys' teams any more because a total of 46 states now offer separate, full-fledged officially-sanctioned wrestling programs for high school girls. 40 of these programs have been started since 2018; 27 of them have been added just since 2020.
https://wrestlelikeagirl.org/hsseau
More on the Texas rules back when Mack Beggs was in HS wrestling:
March 3, 2016
Texas Public School Superintendents have overwhelmingly approved a new rule for the UIL - the University Interscholastic League - that requires students to play on the team that matches the gender listed on their birth certificate. The rule is being criticized by LGBT rights advocates.
95 percent of public school superintendents in Texas who voted on the rule supported it. It requires Texas' public school athletes in middle and high school to play on teams reflected their birth certificates. Thus a transgender transitioning student would not be able to play on the team that they identify with.
Kate Hector is the spokesperson for the UIL. She explained the rule on TPR’s The Source on Thursday. “This is really placing into rule which is already in practice. So if there were any questions that coaches or athletic directors had they would call the UIL and this is the practice that we would advise and has been for a while and this new rule is just placing it into policy.”
https://www.tpr.org/community/2016-03-03/the-source-new-rule-doesnt-recognize-transgender-teens
May 30, 2016,
last week, Texas along with 10 other states sued the Obama Administration over a new directive about transgender students' access to bathrooms in public schools.
And in two months, a new Texas policy will make it nearly impossible for transgender athletes in the state to compete in high school sports.
Earlier this year, Texas school superintendents voted in favor of a rule change that requires all student athletes to compete under the gender listed on their birth certificate.
Kate Hector, spokeswoman for the University Interscholastic League, which governs Texas public schools' athletics rules and policies, says the measure was necessary and needed to be put in writing.
"The UIL recently went through a complete review of all of our rules," says Hector. "And this rule is something that's been in place for a while and practiced, but it was not written into policy. So it was really correcting that."
But Lou Weaver of Equality Texas says the rule is discriminatory and violates Title IX — a federal law that prohibits discrimination on the basis of sex in all education programs operated by those institutions who receive federal funding.
What do UIL rules say about transgender athletes?
The UIL rule (Section 360 of UIL Constitution and Contest Rules), which is set by representatives of member school districts across Texas, states that gender will be determined based on a student’s birth certificate for the purpose of UIL participation and competition.
How was the birth certificate rule established?
After approval by the Legislative Council, the rule regarding birth certificates was placed, along with other UIL rules, on a referendum ballot so all UIL-member school superintendents could vote on this addition to the UIL Constitution and Contest Rules. On the referendum ballot, 95 percent of UIL-member school superintendents voted in favor of this item. The results of the ballot can be found here: https://www.uiltexas.org/files/policy/2016_spring_referendum_ballot.pdf (ballot item 3)
The Legislative Council and the Commissioner of Education approved this rule change before it took effect on August 1, 2016.
pennygadgetMarch 15, 2025
I appreciate the extra info!
Yeah, I figured the boys had no say in the Beggs case either way. But I would imagine some of them would feel weird about it.
IMO, the fact that Beggs was on copious doses of testosterone should have disqualified her from playing on either team. If a real boy can't compete while injecting testosterone, Beggs (who fancies herself a real boy) should not have been allowed to do so
The UIL gave Beggs a therapeutic use exemption for exogenous testosterone. IIRC, when the UIL gave Beggs the TUE, they used the reference range for normal testsoterone levels in male teenagers as the appropriate therapeutic target for Beggs as well.
The attorney father of one of the HS girls Beggs wrestled against and beat sued the UIL on the grounds that granting Beggs a TUE allowing her to get roided up on massive amounts exogenous testosterone whilst at the same time permitting her compete in girls' HS wrestling was unfair and illegal. But the courts either dismissed the suits or decided in favor of the UIL.
Beggs was named as a defendant in the lawsuit too.
March 5, 2017
University Interscholastic League rules allow Beggs to compete while taking testosterone, but school superintendents and athletic directors voted overwhelmingly last year on the gender requirement [whcih said Beggs could only compete in girls' wrestling].
Jim Baudhuin, an attorney and Dallas-area wrestling parent, has filed a lawsuit seeking to keep Beggs from competing against girls. The lawsuit mostly takes aim at the UIL for allowing Beggs to face girls while on testosterone.
After the lawsuit was filed, two girls forfeited their matches against Beggs at the regional tournament leading into the state meet. All four opponents wrestled Beggs at state, but some parents complained that it wasn't fair. There were some boos in the crowd after Beggs won the state title.
April 11 2017
Mack Beggs' transgender wrestling case headed for judicial and legislative hearing at same time
The furious debate that enveloped Mack Beggs' controversial girls wrestling state title in Texas is now headed for a two-pronged debate, with a county judge expected to rule on the validity of a lawsuit that would require the University Interscholastic League to allow Beggs to wrestle with boys at precisely the same time that the Texas state legislature weighs eliminating a safe harbor provision which made it possible for Beggs to compete against girls.
That aforementioned safe harbor provision has been the subject of much debate throughout Beggs' preparation for the state meet and his eventual victory in the girls division.
The logic behind those upset about the ruling holds that while Beggs was allowed to take a banned substance in the name of a medical use exemption, that still gave him an unfair advantage. Beggs and his grandmother argued throughout that his testosterone levels were always kept within the normal range for competition.
The judge in Travis County will be hearing a case from UIL that the lawsuit against Beggs and the state association — which was filed by Coppell lawyer Jim Baudhuin — lacks standing because of a laundry list of considerations.
As captured by the Dallas Morning News, here's why the UIL claims Baudhuin's case should be thrown out:
April 26 2017
After two challenges, the UIL's current steroid policy remained intact Tuesday.
The policy came into public light in relation to the case of Mack Beggs, the Euless Trinity transgender wrestler who went on to win a girls wrestling state championship while taking testosterone under a "safe harbor" provision in the education code.
EavaMarch 14, 2025
Extremely shitty for whom? For the mediocre males who otherwise come in last?
Why, of course! Lia Thomas specifically said that he wanted to stay competitive after transitioning, therefore he had to compete against women.
Just ignore the fact that he wasn't that competitive to begin with.
Segregating sports by gender is extremely shitty, I'm glad you agree. Gender and sex are different things, you know.. 😒
all these clueless idiots who have no idea why things were segregated by sex to begin with
aelloMarch 15, 2025
This is what happens when they teach children that sex is inconsequential and "girl" and "boy" are just costumes that anyone can dress up in.
limoncelloMarch 15, 2025
Blah blah blah "I want there to be forbidden fruit to give my life meaning."
pennygadgetMarch 14, 2025
Honestly. I respect this stance more than the assertion that males should be allowed to play women's sports because their inner girl souls negate their inherent male advantages. At least making all sports co-ed is ideologically consistent (even if it's just as misogynistic)
MarthaMMCMarch 15, 2025
I think it's just camouflage for TIMs. They want to deny the differences between the sexes. To make everyone pretend.
spacykateMarch 15, 2025
Someone should reply to the commenter saying its transphobic to say that there should not be sexed categories because its erasing transwomen.
MarthaMMCMarch 15, 2025
I think they want co-ed sports to push the idea that males don't have an advantage in most sports, and by default that TIMs don't either-that it has nothing to do with the physical differences between the sexes-which they deny exist. And pretend it's about gender, not sex.
And when the women lose or don't place in the top in most sports, they will claim it's because they need to-in the word of 1 TIM, "try harder".
TrappedInACarMarch 16, 2025
Segregating by gender isn’t shitty so much as dumb. Gender means nothing. Segregating by sex is sensible because we would be making every sport male by default if we didn’t. I can’t believe people actually want to try and argue that this is somehow bigoted. Well, I can believe it, but can people not use logic any more?
In 1992, the Chinese skeeting athlete Zhang Shan won an Olympics gold medal against male athletes. (You can see a very famous photo of her here.) Men's reaction? They banned women from skeeting in the next Olympics game, and later made a segregated women's skeeting competition. Men are only fine with women being worse than them in mixed-gender sports.
TIL! Is there any other sport where women can actually won against men? Chess maybe?
Ultra Endurance Swimming
https://www.thecut.com/2016/09/the-obscure-endurance-sport-women-are-quietly-dominating.html
Also, long distance hiking. Tara Dower holds the record for fastest time traveling the Appalachian trail by over 13 hours (she traversed the entire trail in 40 days).
https://www.ncrabbithole.com/p/tara-dower-fastest-known-time-appalachian-trail-nc
Equestrian sports. Women compete on equal footing against men.
Chess is still dominated by men, maybe because of men gatekeeping and classical chess being very energy-consuming. The Polgar sisters were very famous women chess players and Judit Polgar was the youngest chess grandmaster at her time and won against many chess world champions. Her playing style inspired many women in chess so that "to play like a women" in chess means very aggressive playing. There is also Rui Naiwei in the game of Go who was the first women to reach 9-dan (the highest ranking in Go) and the only women to won a mix-gendered championship, defeating the best two Go players at the time.
Long distance running.
https://www.businessinsider.com/women-are-faster-long-distance-runners-estrogen-2020-1?op=1