Welcome to another discussion post for Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men by Lundy Bancroft.
In this post, we are discussing Part IV, Changing the Abusive Man, Chapter 14 The Process of Change.
Share your thoughts on this chapter and overall book section in the comments. (Feel free to also share thoughts and suggestions on the discussion post and bookclub structure itself.)
Next chapter is the last chapter! Next week, I am going to make two posts. One is going to be the chapter 15 discussion and the other is going to be a whole book summary discussion. The "whole book summary discussion post" would be a post that would be easy to link for anyone who might be curious about reading the book, it'd have all the discussion posts listed and the comments would be all-encompassing about the book, not chapter specific. It might be a good post for women to link to who want to encourage women to read the book.
Anyone who hasn't read the book but wants to give input on the topics discussed are welcome to as well! (I recommend mentioning that you haven't read the chapter in your post, so people are aware of that when replying.)
Previous Discussion Posts
Chapter 1 Discussion — The Nature of Abusive Thinking, The Mystery
Chapter 2 Discussion — The Nature of Abusive Thinking, The Mythology
Chapter 3 Discussion — The Nature of Abusive Thinking, The Abusive Mentality
Chapter 4 and Part I Discussion — The Nature of Abusive Thinking, The Types of Abusive Men
Chapter 5 Discussion — The Abusive Man in Relationships, How Abuse Begins
Chapter 6 Discussion — The Abusive Man in Relationships, The Abusive Man In Everyday Life
Chapter 7 Discussion — The Abusive Man in Relationships, Abusive Men and Sex
Chapter 8 Discussion — The Abusive Man in Relationships, Abusive Men and Addiction
Chapter 9 and Part II Discussion — The Abusive Man in Relationships, The Abusive Man and Breaking Up
Chapter 10 Discussion — The Abusive Man in the World, Abusive Men as Parents
Chapter 11 Discussion — The Abusive Man in the World, Abusive Men and their Allies
Chapter 13 Discussion — Changing the Abusive Man, The Making of an Abusive Man
It’s been a long time since I read this book.
Unfortunately I tend to be too forgiving and accepting of hurtful behaviour....I don’t know if humans can change who they fundamentally are?
I have indeed grown as a person but have had my own inner self distinct and noticeable since being a baby. We’re all a product of our environment/childhood/trauma.....is that making excuses in so far as DV?(I was in an abusive relationship for 7 months and it felt all wrong but I’d make excuse after excuse for him physically, emotionally and sexually abusing me :/
I like that Bancroft truly makes NO excuses for abusive men. It’s a breath of fresh air. I feel pathetically grateful for him, a man, speaking so earnestly and assertively...probably a bit pathetic tbh (me, I mean, for being grateful) 🙃
Unfortunately I tend to be too forgiving and accepting of hurtful behaviour....I don’t know if humans can change who they fundamentally are?
It's okay, I am too, it's something I'm working on. One important thing I learned is that "forgiveness is for yourself." Which means, do not feel like you have to forgive someone just because they apologized, only forgive someone if you actually want to forgive them. I think that helps a lot.
I do really believe people can change who they are, however I also understand that people have to want to change for themselves. So I always have the belief that people can change, and I also acknowledge people may not want to change. I have to accept that and move on with my life. If somebody doesn't want to change their hurtful ways, then they don't get to be part of my life.
We’re all a product of our environment/childhood/trauma.....is that making excuses in so far as DV?
I don't know. I think what we can do is acknowledge that, yes, our environment, traumas, and childhoods do affect us in our present form and we can also acknowledge that being abusive is wrong. I like the quote "it's not your fault but it is your responsibility" when it comes to such quandaries. Meaning, yes maybe somebody had a traumatic childhood, and their abusive behaviors are not okay. Lundy goes over this in his book. It's not their past, it's not their trauma, it's not their environment that makes people abusive, people choose to be abusive.
I feel pathetically grateful for him, a man, speaking so earnestly and assertively...probably a bit pathetic tbh (me, I mean, for being grateful) 🙃
I don't think you need to feel pathetic for feeling grateful. 🫂 I am also grateful that Lundy made this book. He has a lot of "inside knowledge" that women probably would never get about abusive men, because he is a man himself and men act differently around fellow men than they do when around women.
Loved all of this reply, especially the part about abuse coming from abuse (generational abuse) not being your fault but being your responsibility. That’s some good knowledge right there and I will remember it.
I really hope you’re right about wanting to change - I’m happy with myself in so far as being loving, caring and gentle but really need to work on self esteem and not consistently letting others walk all over me. This reply has been really helpful, thankyou sister 💚
It makes sense, given the fact no one can change an abusive person besides themselves. Therefore, giving the abused person support and resources is the most important part. It centers the attention and care on the person who deserves it—the abused.
Things that abusers must do to begin the process of change:
He has to admit, and admit fully, that he was abusive.
He has to admit that he was abusive on purpose, that his actions were a choice. He has to stop making excuses.
He has to acknowledge that what he did was wrong.
He has to accept people's right to be angry about what he did, which meant that he had to be willing to truly acknowledge the effects of his actions.
He has to accept the consequences of his actions.
He has to devote long-term and serious effort toward setting right what he had done.
He has to lay aside demands for forgiveness.
He has to treat people consistently well from that point forward.
He has to relinquish his negative views of the people he hurt.
I thought this was interesting. I think I am way too used to the perspective of "it's not good to be mean back," because so often, abusers don't want to change and listen so they use someone being critical or mad at them and possibly yelling at them as a way to hurt the person who was pointing out the abuser's cruelty.
Reminds me of the "the abuser wants to go back to being a benevolent dictator instead of a cruel dictator" phrase from an earlier chapter.
A list of questions that victims need to look for "yes" answers to if they are wondering if their abuser is changing:
Has he learned to treat your opinions with respect, even when they differ strongly from his?
Is he accepting your right to express anger to him, especially when it involves his history of mistreating you?
Is he respecting your right to freedom and independence? Does that include refraining from all interference with your friendships and giving up the demand to always know where you are and whom you are with?
Has he stopped making excuses for his treatment of you, including not using your behavior as an excuse for his?
Is he being respectful about sex, applying no pressure and engaging in no guilt trips?
Has he stopped cheating or flirting with other women, or using other behaviors that keep you anxious that he will stray?
Does he listen to your side in arguments without interrupting, and then make a serious effort to respond thoughtfully to your points, even if he doesn’t like them?
Have you been free to raise your grievances, new or old, without retaliation from him?
Has he stopped talking about his abuse as if it were an accident and begun to acknowledge that he used it to control you?
Is he actually responding to your grievances and doing something about them (for example, changing the way he behaves toward your children)?
Has he greatly reduced or eliminated his use of controlling behaviors (such as sarcasm, rolling his eyes, loud disgusted sighs, talking over you, using the voice of ultimate authority, and other demonstrations of disrespect or superiority) during conversations and arguments?
When he does slip back into controlling behavior, does he take you seriously when you complain about it and keep working on improving?
Is he being consistent and responsible in his behavior, taking into account how his actions affect you without having to be constantly reminded?
Is he acting noticeably less demanding, selfish, and self-centered?
Is he being fair and responsible about money, including allowing you to keep your own assets in your own name?
Has he stopped any behaviors that you find threatening or intimidating?
Has he significantly expanded his contribution to household and child-rearing responsibilities and stopped taking your domestic work for granted or treating you like a servant?
Has he begun supporting your strengths rather than striving to undermine them?
Have you had any major angry arguments with him in which he has shown a new willingness to conduct himself nonabusively?
This reminds me of my stepmother. And also unfortunately me to myself. I have been getting better with myself in some regards, but I noticed that when I stopped being critical and mean to myself, I didn't start being kind to myself, but instead I just felt "absent" and "avoidant" and "neglectful" of myself.
Quoting for keeping in mind for myself. I don't want to slip back into bad relationships. I don't want to waste my life on hoping cruel people can change.
I thought this was a great question for one to ask themselves.
I thought this was a good explanation of why couples counseling isn't effective for abusers.
I thought this was nice. I like the encouragement for women to build back their lives, recenter on themselves, heal, and grow.
Yep. People only change if they want to change. We cannot make people change, they must choose to do so of their own volition.
💯 This and the previous quote go along together. This is also why feminism matters. Financial independence, women's bodily autonomy, social safety nets. These all strengthen women's ability to free themselves from abusers, and as a result, reduce the effectiveness and quantity of abusers. Women creating strong boundaries and standing up for themselves and living for themselves is crucial to creating an abuse-free world.
This really echoes radical feminism.