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One of the main "counters" to the argument of having female-only restrooms is that mandating single-sex restrooms would mean TIFs would have to use the women's room. The argument goes that TIFs would cause greater panic or uproar because they would look like biological males and thus scare more women than would be scared/worried about TIMs in the women's room.

TRAs really seem to like the idea that women can't win here, that either way there will be mannish-looking individuals in the women's room that look like men and thus make us uncomfortable. Now, the degree to which TIFs look like men is questionable, of course, which puts this argument into some doubt.

But anyway, how do you think it would go in practice? Would it cause more worry/uproar than if a TIM tried to use the women's room? How would the typical non-GC, non-TRA woman react?

And related to this question, how easy is it for the typical person (so not necessarily knowing which signs to look for) to distinguish between an FtM TIF and an MtF TIM (as opposed to the TIFs and TIMs that don't even bother trying to look convincing)? (As opposed to, while being able to recognize the person as a TIP, not sure which way.)

And what would the "typical TIF" do in this situation, do you think? Say something like "I was assigned female at birth"?

One of the main "counters" to the argument of having female-only restrooms is that mandating single-sex restrooms would mean TIFs would have to use the women's room. The argument goes that TIFs would cause greater panic or uproar because they would look like biological males and thus scare more women than would be scared/worried about TIMs in the women's room. TRAs really seem to like the idea that women can't win here, that either way there will be mannish-looking individuals in the women's room that look like men and thus make us uncomfortable. Now, the degree to which TIFs look like men is questionable, of course, which puts this argument into some doubt. But anyway, how do you think it would go in practice? Would it cause more worry/uproar than if a TIM tried to use the women's room? How would the typical non-GC, non-TRA woman react? And related to this question, how easy is it for the typical person (so not necessarily knowing which signs to look for) to distinguish between an FtM TIF and an MtF TIM (as opposed to the TIFs and TIMs that don't even bother trying to look convincing)? (As opposed to, while being able to recognize the person as a TIP, not sure which way.) And what would the "typical TIF" do in this situation, do you think? Say something like "I was assigned female at birth"?

63 comments

Forcing TIFS to use the men's restroom would result in violence and discrimination against butch lesbians and any other women who don't perform femininity. Bathroom use should be sex-based, nothing else.

I’m fine with it. If I have to share a bathroom with either a woman on steroids, or a man in a wig, I’ll pick the woman every time no matter what she looks like.

One of the main "counters" to the argument of having female-only restrooms is that mandating single-sex restrooms would mean TIFs would have to use the women's room.

I'm concerned about maintaining female only restrooms. I could give two shits about the mens loo. If tifs want to use the mens why do I care? That said, I would hope any tif would still come to the women's if she feels unsafe for any reason, and just provide some assurance or explanation to the other occupants if necessary.

This is where I am. Just like in sports or prison, if a TIF wants to take the risk, she can join the men’s team or head to men’s prison. She’s making the decision to take that risk on herself, whereas allowing men into the ladies is putting the risk on women without her consent.

This, thank you. I think you articulated the sentiment much better than I did.

if I saw a TIF in the women’s bathroom, yeah I wouldn’t DO anything, because that’s the bathroom she is supposed to use, but I would definitely mean-mug her for abandoning ship when it’s convenient and still seeking refuge when she needs it.

Besides, who knows if she’s voting or encouraging her trans friends to vote to repeal more of women’s rights in favor of trans shit. Soon, there won’t be a women’s restroom thanks to her and her buddies.

What if she uses the women’s room because it is the law, though?

Saying "they're female so it's totally fine!" only works in theory, but irl it's not that simple. If someone who looked like Buck Angel came into the bathroom I bet most women would be alarmed. Most people aren't closely examining others in these spaces, so how would anyone know it's a TIF and not an actual man? Especially people who aren't obsessed with this topic, who probably have a harder time clocking trans people. TIFs might not be a threat the way men are, but they're being perceived as such, which is the issue. Until there's a magical chromosome detector on every bathroom door there's really no way to ensure that the manly looking person in there with you is actually female. Imo the TIFs made their choice, they can go piss with the men and leave the rest of the women alone.

No matter what buck angel looks like when she opens her mouth its clear. I don't know why they can't just say if anyone asks, I really don't think that many of them would fool anyone. its mostly the balding plus beard that makes people need to do a double take, its not that they look like men its that we don't expect women to be balding and the face fungus covers the features which is why they all grow it.

I don't disagree with anything you're saying, but I want to point out that this is what Buck Angel looks like next to an actual man. She's held up as the be-all-end-all of TIFs passing but I suspect even she doesn't pass nearly as well in real life as she appears to when she's photographed by herself.

Ok I'm too lazy to reply twice, I basically have the same reply for you and the lady gaga interview commenter. Lol it's easier to see the differences in pictures or videos, especially for those of us who are tuned into this topic. But my concern is regular non gc women in a women's only space and what their gut reaction to seeing a mostly passing TIF would be. I think it would make them uncomfortable or even scared, I think I'd even be startled and wonder if I went into the wrong place. Even if women suspect something is up and maybe wonder if it's a TIF, that's still unnecessary worry. I really don't have a solution though. Theoretically TIFs belong in female spaces, but if they're going to cause other women the same type of discomfort as actual men, then that doesn't feel right to me either.

I completely agree that TIFs ought to defer to other women's comfort in order to preserve women's spaces. If they're making other women uncomfortable they should GTFO (which should give them gender-affirming euphoria so should be a win-win, lol). And yes, anyone who's gender critical will probably be more practiced at clocking than those who aren't familiar with TIPs. But I actually think clocking is MUCH easier in person than videos and photos, where the subject usually has some control over angles, facial expressions, etc. And I just want all the lurking TIFs to know that they don't pass and never will.

To be fair, there are tiny men, and that TIM she stood next to simply looked way more male she did female. I could have mistaken Buck for a small man looking tiny next to that enormous TIM.

But even she says that it took decades for her to pass as well as she does. Like, this is end stage- she only got really believable in her late 50s. Most TIFs want to be a cute 20 year old guy.

Wow, the difference in skill size is remarkable.

[–] realityismykink 11 points Edited

The skulls, the HANDS, also Buck giving the TIM an adoring little smile while he stares down the camera...🤣 I looked and looked for photos of Buck with men and all I could find were photos of her with TIMs; seems she avoids being photographed with men at all costs unless they're in drag. Here's another winner.

ETA: Another good one of Buck with three dudes and another TIF

Do you remember when Lady Gaga's dogs were stolen and her dog walker was shot? It was all over the news, even on the east coast. They ran interviews with her neighbors. One was described as a man, but I saw and heard this man's interview and it was immediately obvious to me that this man was actually a woman/TIF. The small frame, the froggy voice, the mannerisms all read as female. I rolled my eyes and looked back at the TV as the interviewee's name credit came up.

...and then I realized that TIF who didn't pass was Buck Angel.

Exactly. Did we miss the recent story about the TIF who dipped her packer into someone’s drink and then destroyed restaurant property in a fit of rage? I don’t wanna say she deserves to have to use the men’s room but she needs to stay out of the women’s room.

At least with bathrooms, I'm in favor of the implied gentlemen's agreement that existed before captured governments started mandating that women tolerate men in our spaces. In the past, a TIM would only enter if he felt he passed. If he was questioned, it was incumbent on him to leave and not return. I think this worked somewhat well in that it left it in women's hands to tell men to GTFO or ask security to do so.

Although, truth be told, I'm not sure if that would work today thanks to greater trans awareness. Women who don't buy into trans identity now have reason to question male-appearing users of the restrooms (whether women or TIMs) while, in the past, they would have been more likely to extend the benefit of the doubt.

So it likely would have to come down to sex in order to protect women and have accurate government documents to show when there's a dispute. Too bad, so sad for TIMs who could have flown under the radar 40 years ago, but, as far as I'm concerned, this outcome is their fault.

In the past transition was strongly discouraged in males who would never pass.

Then it should have meant all of them.

Passing in the eyes of the male doctors who pioneered these treatments and surgeries. You could slap lipstick on a pig and most men would think it’s a woman.

All women should be welcome in women’s spaces.

However I don’t want any prosethic/fake penises in the same room as women and girls.

How about rage- and violence-inducing levels of testosterone?

As a women with an illness that causes high levels of testosterone I find your implication offensive.

All women means all women. Not excluding those who don’t fit into our ideals- always all women.

Exactly. Are we going to start exposing all women that are members of a group with supposedly higher violence? That's not a world i want to live in.

They're women, so they're allowed in the women's bathroom. I've met like dozens of TIFs and none of them pass.

I think the ones with beards do.

Then you haven't spent enough time with them. However, if a woman wants to throw a bearded TIF out of the women's bathroom, I'm not going to shed any tears for the TIF.

[–] hmimperialtortie AGP = evil 23 points

It would be easy to mistake a bearded TIF for a young man when she’s a stranger in a bathroom, if you aren’t used to being around these people. I know I’m not in the habit of looking closely at strangers in public.

[–] yikesforever 12 points Edited

We're not going to spend time with them, we're talking about a stranger you see for a few seconds in a bathroom...

I don't want trans anything in the bathroom, because trans shouldn't exist.

The TIF is certainly safer with the women, but depending on how well the TIF passes, why should the women be subjected to that shock?

[–] hmimperialtortie AGP = evil 11 points

Safer if she’s not fuelled on testosterone, like that prosthetic dick dipper who also beat up her ex.

Omg. I missed the part where she beat up the ex.

Almost like testosterone is some kind of poison...

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