24
Discussion[Deleted]
Posted March 17, 2023 by [Deleted] in GenderCritical
[Post deleted]

25 comments

Perseph265March 18, 2023

Ask her to define 'cis-privilege' and what it looks like for women.

The only response I've ever gotten to this is along the lines of 'being recognized as your correct gender'. And what does being recognized as a woman get women, particularly in places like Afghanistan, China, South Korea, or deep red states in the US these days?

You cannot be privileged on an axis of oppression.

[Deleted]March 18, 2023

This sounds like a good approach. I wish I had thought of it at the time, but I will bring it up later.

CalifasaurosMarch 18, 2023(Edited March 18, 2023)

OP, are you familiar with the works and/or words of prominent, much-feted-in-woke-circles, trans-identifying males Andrea Long Chu, Grace Lavery, Jacob Tobias, and Nina Arsenault? When I started REALLY questioning the trans-gender identity movement, I vowed to first familiarize myself with the ideas and arguments of trans people, and, at the time, these four men mimicking the opposite sex were quite popular.

And, what I found...horrified me. These men didn't "transition" because they admired women’s character or achievements, they "transitioned" because of autogynephila, cissy porn, and forced feminization...the idea of presenting/ being seen as a woman aroused them sexually; the idea of being sexually objectified by other men thrilled them; the idea of being verbally and even physically abused by other sexist men turned them on.

And, they were completely open about these ideas...they published books referencing these notions, they tweeted about them, they created videos about them.

You might introduce your friend to the works of some of these "downtrodden" trans-identifying male celebrities...ask her what role "cis privilege" played in their autogynephilia and addiction to cissy porn.

You might start with Andrea Long Chu's "Females"...it's a short read, but really dives into Long Chu's belief that femaleness is a vacuous hole needing to be filled by male sexual desire, and is best represented by "blank, blank eyes, an open mouth, and, an expectant asshole."

Good luck to you and your friend..first encountering the idea of autogynephilia and addiction to cissy porn in males is...painful.

Oh, and once she's read "Females," you might then get her a subscription to REDUXX.COM.

I defy any woman's belief in "Cis privilege" to withstand engaging with even 10-15 articles on REDUXX.COM

[Deleted]March 18, 2023

In terms of the west, we're at one of the lowest points of women's rights in recent years, so for women to still be this ignorant is such lunacy.

[Deleted]March 18, 2023

It shocks me every time!

VestalVirginMarch 17, 2023

Did she actually say whether she would like to share a prison cell with a bepenised individual? Isn't that what it comes down to?

Have you asked her what cis-privilege she thinks women in Afghanistan have?

maypearlMarch 18, 2023

"Uh, well, they can shield themselves from unwanted male gaze, and they don't have to work, and even leave the house without an escort. They're basically French nobility."

VestalVirginMarch 18, 2023

They can't shield themselves from unwanted male gaze, though. They are given as rape slaves to Taliban men, and have to do plenty of work as household slaves. That's the reality of it.

Not being seen by any other men than their rapist doesn't really make it better.

I mean, I know you are just quoting what idiots would say, but ... aaaarrrgh, I can't even.

UnderstandersonMarch 17, 2023

Thank you for the ugh toward "folks." I always instantly know when I see that word now that someone is trying to pull a snow job.

[Deleted]March 18, 2023

I'm pretty sure it's "folx" too. Seen it too many times, they're obsessed with the "x".

[Deleted]March 18, 2023(Edited March 18, 2023)

Sadly, nothing. The best you can do is gentle Socratic questioning.

"Why can't she see what's obvious?" - this is like asking why a pilot can't see through fog. TWAW is a very convenient smokescreen.

When I was a handmaiden, I used to think that a man wouldn't have to pretend to be trans to walk into a bathroom and assault someone, he'd just do it. Which is a talking point if you're not aware of the insane amount of AGPs who do this, and just assume TIMs are all harmless confused men with "gender dysphoria" who just want to "live their lives. And some TIMs really don't have any intention of hurting people - they really are just confused. But of course you can't tell which is which.

From the POV of someone who supports this, your chances of meeting a TIM in a women's bathroom are tiny, so what do you have to worry about?

They really have no wider awareness of this. Like Hollyhock said, she is probably privileged enough in life not to have given much thought to what some men do for sexual satisfaction.

The "best" way might be bringing up just what lengths men will go to to get their rocks off... but in a very subtle way.

NovemberinthechairMarch 18, 2023

I'm not interested in converting anyone. Religious fanatics are almost impossible to get through to. In their own time. Cis is a stupid expression. These people just want to be special by denying material reality.

[Deleted]March 18, 2023

Ordinarily, I'd take the same approach with people I don't care about, but she's my friend. I hate seeing her bamboozled by this ideology. I also wish we agreed on something that's so important.

HollyhockMarch 18, 2023

If she is upper middle class with a good job and also white, she does have a certain kind of privilege, one that will likely keep her from being incarcerated. So, she can turn up her nose at all the poor, disadvantaged women who end up in prison and have no expensive lawyer they can use to get them lighter sentences...those women are clearly not her concern.

NibaizMarch 18, 2023

We have cis-privilege the same way we have non-schizophrenic-privilege or non-diabetic-privilege.

VestalVirginMarch 18, 2023(Edited March 18, 2023)

Hm, no.

Being non-schizophrenic and non-diabetic actually make my life better. I can eat chocolate and don't have to take insulin! I don't have to stay at l clinics and take medication against schizophrenia!

But being a real woman results in waking up in a bloodsoaked bed (cause not even the extra-large pads are enough) and having to get up immediately to wash the sheets out, no matter whether I have to be at work in an hour, or whether I could have slept in. Nothing privilege about it. And that's not even sexism, it's just the plain biology I cannot escape. (Ok, it is marginally less shitty since I have period panties, but just a bit.)

If I were a male with delusions, I could stay in bed and dream up imagined stomach cramps. Then call my employer and say I need period leave, because trans privilege is such that men do not lose their jobs over demanding that. Then go back to a lovely, blood-free bed and dream up some more imagined "period" symptoms.

Trans privilege is a thing. TIMs are treated as even more sacred and holy than ordinary males.

[Deleted]March 18, 2023(Edited March 18, 2023)

Read this list with her and pick it apart. Point out the fallacies, and how she, as a woman, actually is affected by a lot of these. Or, even if the item is true in her experience, ask if she truly agrees that this thing is a matter of privilege, or whether it couldn't ever affect other "cis" people.

ETA: There are many such ridiculous lists on the internet about "cis privilege", if you want to find a shorter one or something.

https://www.itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2011/11/list-of-cisgender-privileges/

  1. You can use public restrooms without fear of verbal abuse, physical intimidation, or arrest.
  2. You can use public facilities such as gym locker rooms and store changing rooms without stares, fear, or anxiety.
  3. Strangers don’t assume they can ask you what your genitals look like and how you have sex.
  4. Your validity as a man/woman/human is not based on how much surgery you’ve had or how well you “pass” as non-transgender.
  5. You can walk through the world and generally blend in, not being constantly stared or gawked at, whispered about, pointed at, or laughed at because of your gender expression.
  6. You can access gender-exclusive spaces (e.g., a space or activity for women), and not be excluded due to your trans status.
  7. Strangers call you by the name you provide and don’t ask what your “real name” (birth name) is and then assume that they have a right to call you by that name.
  8. You can reasonably assume that your ability to acquire a job, rent an apartment, or secure a loan will not be denied on the basis of your gender identity/expression.
  9. You can flirt, engage in courtship, or form a relationship and not fear that your biological status may be cause for rejection or attack, nor will it cause your partner to question their sexual orientation.
  10. If you end up in the emergency room, you do not have to worry that your gender will keep you from receiving appropriate treatment or that all of your medical issues will be seen as a result of your gender.
  11. Your identity was not formally (until 2013) considered a mental pathology (“gender identity disorder” in the DSM IV) by the psychological and medical establishments, and still pathologized by the public.
  12. You don’t need to worry about being placed in a sex-segregated detention center, holding facility, jail, or prison that is incongruent with your identity.
  13. You don’t have to worry ab out being profiled on the street as a sex worker because of your gender expression.
  14. You are not required to undergo an extensive psychological evaluation in order to receive basic medical care.
  15. You do not have to defend your right to be a part of “queer” (or the queer community), and gays and lesbians will not try to exclude you from “their” equal rights movement because of your gender identity (or any equality movement, including feminist rights).
  16. If you are murdered (or have any crime committed against you), your gender expression will not be used as a justification for your murder (“gay panic”), nor as a reason to coddle the perpetrators.
  17. You can easily find role models and mentors to emulate who share your identity.
  18. Hollywood accurately depicts people of your gender in films and television, without tokenizing your identity as the focus of a dramatic storyline or the punchline of a joke.
  19. You can assume that everyone you encounter will understand your identity and will not think you’re confused, misled, or hell-bound when you reveal it to them.
  20. You can purchase clothes that match your gender identity without being refused service, mocked by staff, or questioned about your genitals.
  21. You can purchase shoes that fit your gender expression without having to order them in special sizes or asking someone to custom-make them.
  22. No stranger checking your identification or driver’s license will ever insult or glare at you because your name or sex does not match the sex they believed you to be based on your gender expression.
  23. You can reasonably assume that you will not be denied services at a hospital, bank, or other institution because the staff does not believe the gender marker on your ID card to match your gender identity.
  24. Your gender is an option on a form.
  25. You can tick a box on a form without someone disagreeing and telling you not to lie.
  26. You don’t have to fear interactions with police officers due to your gender identity.
  27. You can go places with friends on a whim knowing there will be bathrooms there you can use.
  28. You don’t have to convince your parents of your true gender and/or have to earn your parents’ and siblings’ love and respect all over again because of your gender identity.
  29. You don’t have to remind your extended family over and over to use proper gender pronouns (e.g., after transitioning).
  30. You don’t have to deal with old photographs that do not reflect who you truly are.
  31. If you’re dating someone, you know they aren’t just looking to satisfy a curiosity or kink pertaining to your gender identity (e.g., the “novelty” of having sex with a trans person).
  32. You can pretend that anatomy and gender are irrevocably entwined when having the “boy parts and girl parts” talk with children, instead of having to explain the actual complexity of the issue.
realityismykinkMarch 18, 2023(Edited March 18, 2023)

You can walk through the world and generally blend in, not being constantly stared or gawked at, whispered about, pointed at, or laughed at because of your gender expression.

LOL, that's not "cis-privilege;" it's called "not-being-a-repulsive-weirdo privilege." If you look and act like a rapeclown, you will activate humans' natural revulsion towards rapeclowns. I'm also LOVING how much this list refutes all the claims of "it's iMpOsSiBlE tO tElL if someone's trans reee!!!" If it was impossible to tell, "cis privilege" would not be a thing lol.

[Deleted]March 18, 2023

I'm getting worked up reading this list. Virtually anyone who stands out for any reason in this society will get ridiculed and questioned about it. The world doesn't bend to them unless they're men pretending to be women. Also, the list presupposes that gender is innate. Don't like being stared at? Go into "boy-mode" when it suits you.

Recently, I've come to the realization that all TIMs are acting out a sexual fetish for a non-consenting audience. The hardships they claim are just evidence of people's refusal to participate in their fetish. How do I convince my friend that these people are just fetishists?

TortoisemouseMarch 18, 2023(Edited March 18, 2023)

Also, loads of the items on the list apply equally if not more to women compared with TiMs.

You can use public facilities such as gym locker rooms and store changing rooms without stares, fear, or anxiety.

No, I frequently feel fear and anxiety when using public changing rooms, simply because undressing as a woman is a situation of extreme vulnerability even in women-only changing rooms!

Strangers don’t assume they can ask you what your genitals look like and how you have sex.

Uh, no, I have frequently been asked intimate and inappropriate questions by strangers (men) about my genitals and sexual preferences.

Your validity as a man/woman/human is not based on how much surgery you’ve had or how well you “pass” as non-transgender.

Wrong. Women's validity is massively based on how much their appearance conforms to an ideal/stereotype and many get surgery/procedures to try and meet it. And women who don't attempt to meet it are ridiculed/dehumanised.

You can walk through the world and generally blend in, not being constantly stared or gawked at, whispered about, pointed at, or laughed at because of your gender expression.

False. As a woman, especially as a younger attractive woman, you are constantly stared and gawked at by men, whispered about and pointed at or laughed at because of your body. This happened to me very frequently when I was younger particular with regard to my breasts but also my general appearance. Men would not-so-subtly nudge their friends and comment on my fuck-worthy-ness. In public. Whispering and pointing, or blatantly calling aloud. I've been called "it" and worse, by men in public if I haven't responded to their abuse in what they deem an appropriate way.

You can access gender-exclusive spaces (e.g., a space or activity for women), and not be excluded due to your trans status.

No I can't access men's spaces, because I'm not a man.

Strangers call you by the name you provide and don’t ask what your “real name” (birth name) is and then assume that they have a right to call you by that name.

No, even though when asked I state my title is "Dr", I am often then misnamed by that person as "Mrs" once they ask if I'm married (is it cis privilege to be asked your marital status the whole time? No it is not).

You can reasonably assume that your ability to acquire a job, rent an apartment, or secure a loan will not be denied on the basis of your gender identity/expression.

Wrong again. In jobs of higher status/pay, women are less likely to be employed etc. etc. by virtue of being women.

You can flirt, engage in courtship, or form a relationship and not fear that your biological status may be cause for rejection or attack, nor will it cause your partner to question their sexual orientation.

Wahaha! Women are attacked all the time in courtship/relationships because of their biological status as women.

If you end up in the emergency room, you do not have to worry that your gender will keep you from receiving appropriate treatment or that all of your medical issues will be seen as a result of your gender.

Women's healthcare is notoriously lacking, purely because of their "gender" (sex)

Goddess, I could go on, but it's getting tedious and annoying. Nearly every single ones of these applies to WOMEN and many are completely redundant/ridiculous when applied to TiMs.

VestalVirginMarch 18, 2023

Give her a link to a reddit page where they talk about said fetish? I never dared venture there, but they are occasionally quoted with their sick shit on Ovarit.

If she needs encouragement to read, you could say that the posts gave you new insights into their psyche and that you miiiight agree with her now.

(That'd be a lie but I think a minor white lie is justified if it is for a good cause ...)

VestalVirginMarch 18, 2023

You can use public facilities such as gym locker rooms and store changing rooms without stares, fear, or anxiety.

I still can, but won't be able for much longer.

As soon as males are allowed in, perverted males will look at me while stroking their penises. Those same males who could just have used the male room without anyone noticing because they are male and will forever remain male.

nopenottodayMarch 18, 2023

It's just cult thinking striking once again. Trying to talk these people into sense is like trying to get any other cult member to leave a cult. Impossible

EavaMarch 18, 2023

I would acknowledge that there is discrimination against people who are gender nonconforming. But that has nothing to do with being "cis", there are plenty of men and women who do not claim to be the opposite sex but depart from gender stereotypes and face discrimination for it. There was a case that went to SCOTUS involving a heterosexual woman who despite being very successful business-wise, got passed over for promotions because she was not feminine enough, didn't wear make-up, used foul language, acted "like a man". She was flat out told to be more feminine. She won in the end.

But that discrimination is what makes some people think transition is the answer, rather than eliminating the need for gender role conformity. I think that is what drives some parents to trans young kids, they can't cope with how their child may be treated, especially boys, if they wear dresses, play with "girl things", etc., so they think it is better to transition their sons to girls so they will be accepted.

[Deleted]March 17, 2023

[Comment deleted]