I had a sense from our prior convos that she was lib-fem so I tried to peak her gently. I told her that I felt
insane rage uncomfortable about men in women's sports and women's jails. She said that this framing of the issue tends to pit women against non-binary "folks" (ugh that word...). And then she brought up intersex people and said that she had cis-privilege. At that point, I didn't want to press farther.
What is happening? Why can't see see what's obvious?
Is there a way forward with her on this issue?
I know these things sometimes take time to percolate and that planting the seed is a first step. But she mentioned to me that she had already talked to other women about safety issues arising from men in women's spaces, and that didn't seem to have had an impact.
Ask her to define 'cis-privilege' and what it looks like for women.
The only response I've ever gotten to this is along the lines of 'being recognized as your correct gender'. And what does being recognized as a woman get women, particularly in places like Afghanistan, China, South Korea, or deep red states in the US these days?
You cannot be privileged on an axis of oppression.
This sounds like a good approach. I wish I had thought of it at the time, but I will bring it up later.
OP, are you familiar with the works and/or words of prominent, much-feted-in-woke-circles, trans-identifying males Andrea Long Chu, Grace Lavery, Jacob Tobias, and Nina Arsenault? When I started REALLY questioning the trans-gender identity movement, I vowed to first familiarize myself with the ideas and arguments of trans people, and, at the time, these four men mimicking the opposite sex were quite popular.
And, what I found...horrified me. These men didn't "transition" because they admired women’s character or achievements, they "transitioned" because of autogynephila, cissy porn, and forced feminization...the idea of presenting/ being seen as a woman aroused them sexually; the idea of being sexually objectified by other men thrilled them; the idea of being verbally and even physically abused by other sexist men turned them on.
And, they were completely open about these ideas...they published books referencing these notions, they tweeted about them, they created videos about them.
You might introduce your friend to the works of some of these "downtrodden" trans-identifying male celebrities...ask her what role "cis privilege" played in their autogynephilia and addiction to cissy porn.
You might start with Andrea Long Chu's "Females"...it's a short read, but really dives into Long Chu's belief that femaleness is a vacuous hole needing to be filled by male sexual desire, and is best represented by "blank, blank eyes, an open mouth, and, an expectant asshole."
Good luck to you and your friend..first encountering the idea of autogynephilia and addiction to cissy porn in males is...painful.
Oh, and once she's read "Females," you might then get her a subscription to REDUXX.COM.
I defy any woman's belief in "Cis privilege" to withstand engaging with even 10-15 articles on REDUXX.COM
In terms of the west, we're at one of the lowest points of women's rights in recent years, so for women to still be this ignorant is such lunacy.
It shocks me every time!
Did she actually say whether she would like to share a prison cell with a bepenised individual? Isn't that what it comes down to?
Have you asked her what cis-privilege she thinks women in Afghanistan have?
"Uh, well, they can shield themselves from unwanted male gaze, and they don't have to work, and even leave the house without an escort. They're basically French nobility."
They can't shield themselves from unwanted male gaze, though. They are given as rape slaves to Taliban men, and have to do plenty of work as household slaves. That's the reality of it.
Not being seen by any other men than their rapist doesn't really make it better.
I mean, I know you are just quoting what idiots would say, but ... aaaarrrgh, I can't even.
Lol- cis privilege for a woman today? That’s hilarious. So femicide, DV, male violence, rape is nothing? And having males rob women of their safety and privacy is privilege? Males being recognized for women’s sports, on IWD, and throughout women’s history month is privilege? Being silenced by men at let women speak events is privilege? Women being housed with male rapists in women’s prisons is privilege? Maybe said friend should look up the definition of privilege.
Thank you for the ugh toward "folks." I always instantly know when I see that word now that someone is trying to pull a snow job.
I'm pretty sure it's "folx" too. Seen it too many times, they're obsessed with the "x".
Sadly, nothing. The best you can do is gentle Socratic questioning.
"Why can't she see what's obvious?" - this is like asking why a pilot can't see through fog. TWAW is a very convenient smokescreen.
When I was a handmaiden, I used to think that a man wouldn't have to pretend to be trans to walk into a bathroom and assault someone, he'd just do it. Which is a talking point if you're not aware of the insane amount of AGPs who do this, and just assume TIMs are all harmless confused men with "gender dysphoria" who just want to "live their lives. And some TIMs really don't have any intention of hurting people - they really are just confused. But of course you can't tell which is which.
From the POV of someone who supports this, your chances of meeting a TIM in a women's bathroom are tiny, so what do you have to worry about?
They really have no wider awareness of this. Like Hollyhock said, she is probably privileged enough in life not to have given much thought to what some men do for sexual satisfaction.
The "best" way might be bringing up just what lengths men will go to to get their rocks off... but in a very subtle way.
I'm not interested in converting anyone. Religious fanatics are almost impossible to get through to. In their own time. Cis is a stupid expression. These people just want to be special by denying material reality.
Ordinarily, I'd take the same approach with people I don't care about, but she's my friend. I hate seeing her bamboozled by this ideology. I also wish we agreed on something that's so important.
If she is upper middle class with a good job and also white, she does have a certain kind of privilege, one that will likely keep her from being incarcerated. So, she can turn up her nose at all the poor, disadvantaged women who end up in prison and have no expensive lawyer they can use to get them lighter sentences...those women are clearly not her concern.
We have cis-privilege the same way we have non-schizophrenic-privilege or non-diabetic-privilege.
Being non-schizophrenic and non-diabetic actually make my life better. I can eat chocolate and don't have to take insulin! I don't have to stay at l clinics and take medication against schizophrenia!
But being a real woman results in waking up in a bloodsoaked bed (cause not even the extra-large pads are enough) and having to get up immediately to wash the sheets out, no matter whether I have to be at work in an hour, or whether I could have slept in. Nothing privilege about it. And that's not even sexism, it's just the plain biology I cannot escape. (Ok, it is marginally less shitty since I have period panties, but just a bit.)
If I were a male with delusions, I could stay in bed and dream up imagined stomach cramps. Then call my employer and say I need period leave, because trans privilege is such that men do not lose their jobs over demanding that. Then go back to a lovely, blood-free bed and dream up some more imagined "period" symptoms.
Trans privilege is a thing. TIMs are treated as even more sacred and holy than ordinary males.
Read this list with her and pick it apart. Point out the fallacies, and how she, as a woman, actually is affected by a lot of these. Or, even if the item is true in her experience, ask if she truly agrees that this thing is a matter of privilege, or whether it couldn't ever affect other "cis" people.
ETA: There are many such ridiculous lists on the internet about "cis privilege", if you want to find a shorter one or something.
LOL, that's not "cis-privilege;" it's called "not-being-a-repulsive-weirdo privilege." If you look and act like a rapeclown, you will activate humans' natural revulsion towards rapeclowns. I'm also LOVING how much this list refutes all the claims of "it's iMpOsSiBlE tO tElL if someone's trans reee!!!" If it was impossible to tell, "cis privilege" would not be a thing lol.
I'm getting worked up reading this list. Virtually anyone who stands out for any reason in this society will get ridiculed and questioned about it. The world doesn't bend to them unless they're men pretending to be women. Also, the list presupposes that gender is innate. Don't like being stared at? Go into "boy-mode" when it suits you.
Recently, I've come to the realization that all TIMs are acting out a sexual fetish for a non-consenting audience. The hardships they claim are just evidence of people's refusal to participate in their fetish. How do I convince my friend that these people are just fetishists?
Also, loads of the items on the list apply equally if not more to women compared with TiMs.
No, I frequently feel fear and anxiety when using public changing rooms, simply because undressing as a woman is a situation of extreme vulnerability even in women-only changing rooms!
Uh, no, I have frequently been asked intimate and inappropriate questions by strangers (men) about my genitals and sexual preferences.
Wrong. Women's validity is massively based on how much their appearance conforms to an ideal/stereotype and many get surgery/procedures to try and meet it. And women who don't attempt to meet it are ridiculed/dehumanised.
False. As a woman, especially as a younger attractive woman, you are constantly stared and gawked at by men, whispered about and pointed at or laughed at because of your body. This happened to me very frequently when I was younger particular with regard to my breasts but also my general appearance. Men would not-so-subtly nudge their friends and comment on my fuck-worthy-ness. In public. Whispering and pointing, or blatantly calling aloud. I've been called "it" and worse, by men in public if I haven't responded to their abuse in what they deem an appropriate way.
No I can't access men's spaces, because I'm not a man.
No, even though when asked I state my title is "Dr", I am often then misnamed by that person as "Mrs" once they ask if I'm married (is it cis privilege to be asked your marital status the whole time? No it is not).
Wrong again. In jobs of higher status/pay, women are less likely to be employed etc. etc. by virtue of being women.
Wahaha! Women are attacked all the time in courtship/relationships because of their biological status as women.
Women's healthcare is notoriously lacking, purely because of their "gender" (sex)
Goddess, I could go on, but it's getting tedious and annoying. Nearly every single ones of these applies to WOMEN and many are completely redundant/ridiculous when applied to TiMs.
Give her a link to a reddit page where they talk about said fetish? I never dared venture there, but they are occasionally quoted with their sick shit on Ovarit.
If she needs encouragement to read, you could say that the posts gave you new insights into their psyche and that you miiiight agree with her now.
(That'd be a lie but I think a minor white lie is justified if it is for a good cause ...)
I still can, but won't be able for much longer.
As soon as males are allowed in, perverted males will look at me while stroking their penises. Those same males who could just have used the male room without anyone noticing because they are male and will forever remain male.