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I’m starting to come to the conclusion that a majority of trans people- particularly autogynephilic cross-dressers, and women transitioning due to misogyny or an interest in yaoi- do not actually believe what they’re selling.

To be blunt, I don’t think these “trans women” believe they’re women at all, nor do such “trans men” believe they’re men. I don’t think any of the people who identify as non-binary actually think that’s a significant category of any kind.

The only people I do think believe their own credo are the dysphoric who went through lots of gate keeping before deciding to transition, and those who got into it as children and stayed in it (the most indoctrinated).

Adult men who like a bit of glitter? Nope. Adult women who want a short haircut? Nope. Awkward, rage-filled teenagers who get a kick out of being “edgy?” Nope. Awkward, angsty teenagers looking for answers? Hopeful, but never quite convinced.

I think that’s why the goal posts keep moving (first trans women are trans women, then they’re women, then they’re biologically female), why for some purposes they’re trans and for others they’re indistinguishable from the sex they claim to be, why the whole ideology is riddled with contradictions: the more ridiculous and bizarre their claims, and the less definable the meaning of the term “transgender,” the less they believe their bullshit.

It reminds me of the line from MacBeth: “methinks she doth protest too much.” They protest waaay too much for people who are in any way confident in the beliefs they purport to hold as fact.

Any desisters or detransitioners or lesbians or bi women who have spent more time in the community noticed this phenomenon (of loudly proclaiming identity due to disbelief in one’s own claims), and agree?

Anyone else agree?

Or do you think the majority of these people really believe their claims? I am starting to seriously doubt it.

Also, what does this say about all the so-called “allies”- everyone else- who claim to believe in their identities, too? Are they trying to “be kind?” Do they think it’s exciting and revolutionary? They want to stick it to women and gay people? What?

If you don’t agree that most of the people currently identifying as trans or non-binary don’t actually believe in their own bullshit, why not? What makes you believe their “identity” is a sincerely held belief (that they are actually the opposite sex or somehow sexless/androgynous)?

If you do agree that most of the people currently identifying as trans or non-binary don’t believe their own bullshit, what are the reasons for and repercussions of this?

I’m curious what other people think!

I’m starting to come to the conclusion that a *majority* of trans people- particularly autogynephilic cross-dressers, and women transitioning due to misogyny or an interest in yaoi- do not actually believe what they’re selling. To be blunt, I don’t think these “trans women” believe they’re women at all, nor do such “trans men” believe they’re men. I don’t think any of the people who identify as non-binary actually think that’s a significant category of any kind. The only people I *do* think believe their own credo are the dysphoric who went through lots of gate keeping before deciding to transition, and those who got into it as children and stayed in it (the most indoctrinated). Adult men who like a bit of glitter? Nope. Adult women who want a short haircut? Nope. Awkward, rage-filled teenagers who get a kick out of being “edgy?” Nope. Awkward, angsty teenagers looking for answers? Hopeful, but never quite convinced. I think that’s why the goal posts keep moving (first trans women are trans women, then they’re women, then they’re biologically female), why for some purposes they’re trans and for others they’re indistinguishable from the sex they claim to be, why the whole ideology is riddled with contradictions: the more ridiculous and bizarre their claims, and the less definable the meaning of the term “transgender,” the less they believe their bullshit. It reminds me of the line from MacBeth: “methinks she doth protest too much.” They protest waaay too much for people who are in any way confident in the beliefs they purport to hold as fact. Any desisters or detransitioners or lesbians or bi women who have spent more time in the community noticed this phenomenon (of loudly proclaiming identity due to *dis*belief in one’s own claims), and agree? Anyone else agree? Or do you think the majority of these people really believe their claims? I am starting to seriously doubt it. Also, what does this say about all the so-called “allies”- everyone else- who claim to believe in their identities, too? Are they trying to “be kind?” Do they think it’s exciting and revolutionary? They want to stick it to women and gay people? What? If you don’t agree that most of the people currently identifying as trans or non-binary don’t actually believe in their own bullshit, why not? What makes you believe their “identity” is a sincerely held belief (that they are actually the opposite sex or somehow sexless/androgynous)? If you do agree that most of the people currently identifying as trans or non-binary don’t believe their own bullshit, what are the reasons for and repercussions of this? I’m curious what other people think!

48 comments

If they really believed it, they wouldn't need so much validation. If they believed that they are a woman trapped in a man's body (or vice versa) they'd acknowledge that their biology is immutable and wouldn't be gaslighting others into the TWAW narrative.

Yup. The patient I met years ago who truly believes he's Jesus just feels sorry for me and others who don't share his belief. He in no way expects any of us to go along. Ditto for the many patients I've met over the years who believe they are Princess Anastasia of Russia. Those women just know they are Anastasia and take pity on me because I don't believe them.

And they wouldn't need to share tips and tricks how to "accordingly" behave as their new gender. It's all a performance.

Yeah, I get the impression most don't really believe it, they just really want to. That's why they get so flustered when someone else says they don't believe. I agree that if they were secure in it, they wouldn't overreact like that.

And they definitely, absolutely want US to be forced to believe it or at least mouth our agreement with it.

[–] Constantine 40 points Edited

In my experience the younger ones really believe it, and the older ones are running a con.

For those arguing needing validation/forcing it on others means they can’t possibly believe it, think of this analogy: there are Christians who truly, deeply believe that if you don’t accept Christ, you’re going to hell. They then implore their family members in the most ridiculous and convoluted ways possible to convert, because they’re so worried about their loved ones ending up in hell. It’s so upsetting to them that they become hysterical about it. Yes, many Christians use their religion as an excuse for bigotry and being holier-than-thou, and many take offense to non-believers because they see their own doubt reflected back at them, but there are still those who truly believe so much that others’ lack of belief causes them deep distress.

My experience tells me this is what is happening with a lot of the younger TRAs. They so deeply believe in this nonsense that when they come across someone who doesn’t, they really see it as some kind of evil, hateful lie that needs to be expunged for the sake of these oh so vulnerable trans/enbies. Even worse, this is so pervasive in this generation that most of them have never even come across GC views IRL. It’s like when someone from a small, isolated orthodox religious community finally gets out into the real world and panics when they realize not everyone’s like them. And the ones who are trans/enby themselves have been told so much that they are vulnerable that they actually become that mentally fragile. It’s like that study that demonstrated students who see content following a trigger warning are more distressed than when they see the same content without one, because now they’re primed to be distressed. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.

This is why this is so dangerous. We have an entire generation that has been brainwashed (largely by the older cons/predators) into not seeing sex, and we all know how dangerous that can be for women. I’ve read accounts from detransitioners talking about how they had to retrain themselves to spot predators because the trans cult programmed them not to see it anymore. And in a way it’s even harder to convince a true believer of the error of their ways than someone who’s just going through the motions to feel superior/sit in judgment. When they actually believe it, how do we deprogram them from the cult, especially when that cult has gone mainsteam?

Edit: deprogram not reprogram, lol. We’re not the cult.

this is so pervasive in this generation that most of them have never even come across GC views IRL

Why the schools, media, parents, and Big Tech should be on board with BIOLOGY and not fetish. All the places of "authority" should be warning of this dangerous cult and telling young people they are in danger from friends spreading these lies. But instead they're all on board.

That is what scares me the most. The Cult is coming from top down at the highest levels.

No child should enter a classroom and be told there are blue and pink brains.

Nail on the head. If I had kids right now, I’d find some way to keep them out of school. It’s that bad.

One of my friends deepest in the kool-aid is a middle school biology teacher. Let that sink in.

One of my friends deepest in the kool-aid is a middle school biology teacher.

Scary as all hell.

There's "trust the science," but there should never be "trust the scientists" I guess. This is really undermining those with credentials in every field.

"Well, my doctor told me...." has no weight anymore. Not now that "my doctor told me I need to dilate my neovagina three times daily" is a real sentence.

My experience tells me this is what is happening with a lot of the younger TRAs. They so deeply believe in this nonsense that when they come across someone who doesn’t, they really see it as some kind of evil, hateful lie that needs to be expunged for the sake of these oh so vulnerable trans/enbies. Even worse, this is so pervasive in this generation that most of them have never even come across GC views IRL. It’s like when someone from a small, isolated orthodox religious community finally gets out into the real world and panics when they realize not everyone’s like them.

I think you are right.

Also, it seems to me that a whole lot of people who are coming out as detransitioners were raised in fundamentalist homes & communities in the first place. Whereas growing up with a strict religion shoved down your throat seems to vaccinate some young people against all religions & cultlike beliefs, in other cases it seems to set people up for trading in the fanatical faith of their childhood for fanatical faith of transgender dogma.

there are Christians who truly, deeply believe that if you don’t accept Christ, you’re going to hell.

Kids raised Roman Catholic like I was worry a lot about our friends & loved ones who haven't been baptized in the RCC going to hell. A ridiculous amount of my childhood was spent agonizing over friends & loved ones I feared were doomed to hell, discussing "baptism of desire" & debating whether in a pinch - say a traffic accident - it would be acceptable to baptize someone on their deathbed with spit or a soft drink like Sprite.

It’s like when someone from a small, isolated orthodox religious community finally gets out into the real world and panics when they realize not everyone’s like them.

That's an interesting point. And it's prompted some thoughts of mine that are entirely off point, but which I will share anyways just for the hell of it.

Historically, people in the West even from small & isolated orthodox religious communities traditionally were raised with full awareness that they are outliers & that most of the world is not like them. For example, in the US, Hasidic & other kinds of Jews, the Amish, Quakers, Mennonites, (establishment) Mormons, the Baháʼís, Scientologists... and so on.

The assumption that everyone is like your own religious sect seems to be a thing mainly among people who were raised in certain rarefied more modern-day religious communities, particularly all the evangelical Christian sects that have emerged since the 70s & 80s, and especially ones that are rural or semi-rural - or where a certain religious group makes up entire population of a town or county. Separatist religious communities with longstanding histories & who've traditionally lived in towns & cities near or amongst other groups have always had to learn how to interact with the outside world & have raised their children accordingly. However, in the really patriarchal cults where women & girls are kept mostly confined to home & the close community, most of the interacting with the outside world is probably done by men & boys.

Jews clearly have had to teach their young children that the outside world believes & lives differently for safety & survival reasons. Some Haredi Jews in the US have set up totally separate communities in rural areas like Kiryas Joel. But many Haredi still live smack in the middle of densely & diversely populated places like Brooklyn, NYC, work in places like Diamond District in mid-Manhattan, frequent places New York University hospitals, and ride the NYC subways & other public transport. Kids in those communities have to know the rest of the world is different. They think the outside world is corrupt, but they sure know it's there coz they are cheek to jowl with it.

In proselytizing religions, children traditionally have been raised to be very aware that other people believe & live very differently so they can be better equipped to try to convert them. Some of the people I've known who are most well-informed about cultures other than their own have been people who spent time as missionaries or were raised with the expectation of becoming missionaries.

The mainstream Mormon practice of sending young men in pairs out in the rest of the world to work as missionaries for two years has always struck me as one of the reasons Mormonism has managed to thrive. My impression is that the Mormon missionary quests don't lead to many converts, but they do lead to young Mormon men who grew up in isolated & homogenous communities becoming acquainted with & savvier about the outside world. And the Amish tradition of rumspringa - the time in the teenage years when Amish youth are allowed into the outside world to explore it for themselves before deciding to be baptized in the faith & stay for Amish for life or to leave - has always seemed sensible too.

Those are my longwinded & totally beside the point thoughts. Sorry for rattling on so long, LOL. But thanks for jogging my thinking.

I don't have the source right now but I remember listening to an interview with an ex-Mormon writer a few years ago. He reflected on his years as missionary, which was when he started losing faith. The way he reflected on being "paired up" reminded me of the shopping scene in The Handmaid's Tale (the novel) -- one missionary observing the other and tasked with "straightening out" slips from orthodoxy.

They so deeply believe in this nonsense that when they come across someone who doesn’t, they really see it as some kind of evil, hateful lie that needs to be expunged for the sake of these oh so vulnerable trans/enbies. Even worse, this is so pervasive in this generation that most of them have never even come across GC views IRL. It’s like when someone from a small, isolated orthodox religious community finally gets out into the real world and panics when they realize not everyone’s like them.

Thank you so much. Your analysis is fantastic. I'm really taken aback by the fact that the belief system is rather obviously religious but is being uncritically taken on and promoted across secular institutions.

Thanks for your kind words. And yes, the level of institutional capture on this is astounding. We can only hope facts will win out in the end.

I think what some people do truly believe is that everything in life should be a choice, and that if you want to be a woman or a man, that should be completely up to you! So they believe they should be able to be a woman, and that means that the definition of woman just has to be shifted until it fits whatever it is that they are able to be. I don't think it's a very clearly thought through or honestly and openly considered opinion, but that's not quite the same as not thinking it's true. Not everyone critically assesses their desires. A lot of people believe a lot of weird things. I can imagine mixes of feelings, social pressures, positive reinforcements & repressed thoughts leading to people thinking just about anything, though I'm sure there are also people with more complex inner dialogues...

[–] jon 32 points

I guess this is why men don't decide to be the type of woman who wears joggers and no make up.

It's always the full monty

[–] Amareldys 9 points Edited

Eh, I know a jeans and t-shirt no make-up TIF

EDIT I meant TIM

Do you mean TIM? I know someone like this, too. He’s far less sexist than the other trans-identified males I know who do go the “reverse Full Monty” (reverse because they’re overdressed, not naked).

yea me too. Seems to be a pretty reliable way to filter between the dysphoric ones and the creeps, honestly. The former want to live as if they had been born female, so they dress (and ime act) within the normal range of female behavior. The creeps want to live as if they were anime girls or porn characters, and hoo boy does it show.

The people I know IRL who are most aggressive about their NB/trans identity are all highly insecure, performative, and addicted to social media. I think they just want to seem special, different, and interesting. They want likes and validation, that's all.

yup. a family member and their SO are like this. they both constantly talk about being queer and about the one being trans, and they think they're a straight couple when they wanna acknowledge how trans the one is, but a queer couple in their gofundmes. funny how that works out.

I think a lot of people are doing this as a con or a flex. I find it hard to believe they think they’re doing something good, and that this isn’t born of a deep resentment; they’ve found a way to inflict themselves on others in this fashion. They may be mixed up and all the rest of it, but for those who don’t actually believe their own bullshit yet continue to identify and behave and demand as they do, it’s a con or a flex born of resentment, at its base.

The repercussions of understanding this are profound. It actually opens up a whole possibility of understanding. If you know you’re dealing with a con man, it’s easier to understand how to approach someone. Know who and what you’re dealing with.

It also means the majority of these people could and would drop their precious identities in a heartbeat, if the world moved on, or if they got something they actually wanted (a change to the social issue which caused them to go in this direction in the first place).

If the majority of those currently identifying as trans are lying to themselves and others, even if subconsciously and unintentionally- and I think the enormous surge in trans-identifying people signifies this is the case- we should adjust our strategy accordingly, and keep in mind that all of these people could drop their trans identity as quickly as they picked it up.

New angles of attack might present themselves, then.

I think it’s important to keep in mind that they don’t believe their own bullshit. They may have been indoctrinated into a cult, or they may have many different personal and mental health and sexual issues, but they do not believe their own bullshit, which means there is hope for them.

However, it’s also why they grow ever bolder (and more incoherent) with their claims and ask for more and more- just flinging shit at the wall to see what sticks.

I find it hard to believe they think they’re doing something good, and that this isn’t born of a deep resentment; they’ve found a way to inflict themselves on others in this fashion. They may be mixed up and all the rest of it, but for those who don’t actually believe their own bullshit yet continue to identify and behave and demand as they do, it’s a con or a flex born of resentment, at its base.

Yup. This movement has empowered & emboldened a whole swathe of the population who are socially-maladjusted malcontents with many malignant characteristics including being thoroughly dishonest. As you say, they are full of deep-seated resentment. This comes in large part from envy, covetousness & rapacity.

Envy: a feeling of discontented or resentful longing aroused by someone else's possessions, qualities, or luck

Covetous: having or showing a great desire to possess something belonging to someone else

Rapacity: aggressive greed

Greed: intense and selfish desire for something, especially wealth, power, or food - or in this case, the qualities & "perks" those with "gender envy" associate with the opposite sex.

I think when it comes to the transbians/AGP group, they are fully aware that being a woman is their fetish and that their idea of femininity is based on what arouses them. And that is why they have to scream down anything/anybody that threatens their woman identity claims. They cannot allow a hint of reasonable debate because, if their true motives were known to the public, they would lose support. They cannot allow for not being validated, because validation and “gender euphoria” are centered around their erections. They know they have misogynistic old fashioned views on womanhood and that’s why they have to “what about me” in any conversation where women discuss the negative aspects of womanhood - from periods to sexual harassment, they have to let women know that they are lucky to have them. They are seeking to normalize their fetish by not just changing the biological definition of womanhood but also by erasing shared experiences and reinforcing gender norms to redefine who is a woman and who isn’t. It’s me, me, me and they are constantly pressuring women to ignore their gut, sit silently in their discomfort, and basically just be nice and accepting. And the shocking thing is women take it and apologize for discussing the negatives of being female just so to make people with penises feel included as women.

Sorry. I know this was a ramble but yes, I agree that the fact they know that they aren’t women and they seek out being a woman because of their porn habits is exactly why the goal post keeps shifting. Just look at the MTF subreddits - they ducking delight in it.

The "what about my dick?! You didn't mention my dick!" Under any post related to womanhood was definitely a peak factor for me. I even saw some TIM being angry because on the 8th mars some French feminist made a giant clitoris on the street, so it wasn't a dick therefore it was transphobic.

What i don't get is, if I truly believe my inner self was cat, and that I should do some surgery to live my best life as a cat, people will force me to see a psychiatrist (and that would be the right thing to do) but when it comes to changing your sex, no one tells you that you cannot become something you're not.

it was the trans cult being mad about the pussyhats, for me. vaginas at a women's march being transphobic was the last straw.

lol it was more like the first straw for me, I remember choking down my first reaction - "well I guess we should call it something other than the women's march, then!" because I knew on some level I'd get even more in trouble for saying that. Like the sequence of events was:

  • most powerful man in the world boasts specifically about assaulting people with pussies
  • people with pussies organize a march to protest him
  • people without pussies complain about people with pussies referring to pussies in any way at the march

There's just no version of that that makes sense, no matter how much you play around with the meanings of words.

Took me a while to actually peak, but the cognitive dissonance started there.

There are different kinds of people in the trans cult with different beliefs:

-People with dysphoria believe they will actually change sex and all their problems will end.

-Homosexual transexuals are aware they´re not the opposite sex, but feel more comfortable living in disguise.

-Autogynephiles are addicted to their fetish and validation, it´s a powerful drug to them. A lot of them are incels, so being trans is the perfect weapon to get off and punish women who say no to them. They don´t actually completely believe they can change sex, but since it´s their fetish, they get angry when they get a dose of reality.

-Confused teens who haven´t actually lived enough to understand the implications of sex in our society, believe that man and woman are ideas, identities you can change how you wish.

bingo. I think that's where a lot of the shifting goalposts comes from, at least when you're talking online.

You try to have a conversation about dysphoria but you're talking to a teenager who thinks wearing a blue skirt makes them nonbinary. You go away and figure out how to address their arguments, but the first person you try your counterpoints on is a fetishist, and so on.

I've had much better luck in one on one conversations.

[–] legopants 13 points Edited

Used to be with a TiF and it was obvious even she didn't believe it. It was honestly really sad, because I could tell she knew she was female and was only ever going to be that and seen that way, but she had bad internalized misogyny and I was sympathetic and getting somewhere with her until she joined a trans discord and twitter and went into the territory of deny all reality and viciously attack anyone or anything stating facts

I think some trans people (particularly the TiMs) are purely cynical and know they are bringing innocent bystanders into their fetish. Others (particularly TiFs) have been groomed into it and heard from somebody else that their new identity is perfectly valid and that anyone who doesn’t validate is a Nazi. The second category remind me of people with other mental illnesses (besides gender dysphoria) who get really into their diagnosis and turn it into an identity and an entire life.

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