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Something u/dasehe wrote got me thinking about how intellectually lazy the trans movement is. I’ve done a lot of arguing in my day with people of all kinds of beliefs. I’ve had better arguments with people who believe that evolution is a hoax than I have with trans activists.

Trans activists will throw out a couple of platitudes like “sex is a social construct” or “the sex binary was invented by white supremacists to oppress indigenous people” and if you offer a rebuttal or even ask them to clarify their claims, they nope out of the conversation faster than you can say “it’s ma’am.”

Is this true for you or have you had any decent, intellectually productive arguments with genderists?

Something [u/dasehe](https://ovarit.com/u/dasehe) wrote got me thinking about how intellectually lazy the trans movement is. I’ve done a lot of arguing in my day with people of all kinds of beliefs. I’ve had better arguments with people who believe that evolution is a hoax than I have with trans activists. Trans activists will throw out a couple of platitudes like “sex is a social construct” or “the sex binary was invented by white supremacists to oppress indigenous people” and if you offer a rebuttal or even ask them to clarify their claims, they nope out of the conversation faster than you can say “it’s ma’am.” Is this true for you or have you had any decent, intellectually productive arguments with genderists?

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They are not so much intellectually lazy as simply not intellectual at all. It is a cult - the TCult - in which propaganda and thought control is used to make sure anyone indoctrinated into the cult is no loinger capable of critical thinking. It starts very specifically with certain aspects of gender ideology and eventually is generalized to the cult members entire life. This is why facts and well reasoned arguments won't work. You have to talk to them like very mind damaged cult members - because that is what they are.

Steven Hassan's books on how to get people to emerge from cult mind control are very relevant.

have you had any decent, intellectually productive arguments with genderists?

Lol, no. They’re incredibly emotional and they can’t take in any information that doesn’t align with their views. Go to any trans subreddit to see them claim not only to be women, but biological females. Of course they can back these claims up with arguments that are totally supported by science. Anyone not buying it gets called a nazi or some other equally charming insult. Or just simply told to “kill yourself c*nt”. I’ve stopped arguing with TRAs, it’s a waste of time.

Vibing hard with this. Back when GC subreddits were a thing a TIM posted on one of them essentially saying he'd like to compare notes/discuss ideas in a civilized manner. I was like, "yeah I'll bite" and DMed him.

We exchanged pleasantries and all, then he asked if I'd explain where I stood on the whole thing. I wrote out a (what I thought was) gentle explanation of gender critical ideology, and how trans ideology is harmful to pretty much everyone involved (who doesn't have stocks in medical companies, at least...).

I get a response essentially saying "oh I couldn't read that, it made me too dysphoric" and a paragraph about how he knew he was a woman because he like feminine things, and "it's normal when my pp gets hard when I wear women's underwear because don't women sexualize themselves when they look in the mirror?".

At least he didn't get aggressive (the bar really is on the ground).

[–] OneStarWolf 12 points Edited

“it's normal when my pp gets hard when I wear women's underwear because don't women sexualize themselves when they look in the mirror?".

God they’re so fucked up. No that’s NOT normal.

I told him as much. Like "I don't get turned on every time I get dressed...no woman I've ever known had expressed this sentiment. My body is like the most mundane thing in the world to me lmao" and he absolutely could not relate.

[–] GoodGoneGirl 9 points Edited

Were you on r/GCdebatesQT? I only ever lurked but I loved that sub. It was my first introduction to both feminism and trans issues. I learned a lot from the GC women there. Too bad the TIMs didn’t. They were all so dismissive and they never listened. It peaked me instantly when I saw that they were just like any other entitled man.

I loved that sub too! It's archived on www.itsafetish.org/archives/gcdebatesqt/. Sometimes I look through all of the old debates/conversations and just shake my head at the responses the trans-identified and their handmaidens would come up with.

It was, yeah! Honestly though, it was a little one-sided in that it definitely skewed GC... Then again, you can't have a "debate" if one side's entire playbook is shifting goalposts, "queering" definitions, and appeals to emotion.

[–] hmimperialtortie AGP = evil 2 points

TRAs or MRAs, they’re all time-wasters and oxygen thieves. Only difference is whether they claim to be the opposite sex.

I was active on the debate subreddit for years before the ban and the only intellectually productive arguments I had during that time were with other GCers.

There are questions I’d asked multiple people over the years that I still haven’t gotten answers to— and I don’t mean inconsistent, incoherent answers (though there were plenty of those too), I mean QT wouldn't touch them at all, despite them being basic questions.

So many transwomen would show up for a day and then rage quit.

What were the questions that wouldn't get engagement?

"what is a woman/man? but don't use gender stereotypes" is a classic that no one ever knows how to really respond to. I personally had few arguments with TRAs because I find them a waste of time, the only time things got ugly was when a trans woman told me she envied my ovaries and that = him being a woman, dude also told me to stop complaining about my PCOS and health problems related to periods because he'd kill to have a poly cystic ovary.

It's such a great question. It just stops them in their tracks.

Though it is frustrating to run into the ones who try to play a game of semantics. They'll say a woman is anyone who feels like a woman. I ask for a non circular definition and they'll define woman as not-man and man as not-woman. When I point out how that definition doesn't mean anything either, they accuse me of arguing in bad faith because none of their definitions are ever good enough for me, so I must actually be a bigot who wants trans people to die etc.

Ughhh. Yeah my polycystic ovaries are soooo amazing and I'm so lucky to have them. I can feel the sharp stabbing pains of a cyst bursting and it just makes me feel so validated as a woman. And the scar tissue buildup that causes infertility?! SIGN ME UP.

Miss me with this, idiots.

Ask them if they think all women’s spaces/sports/prisons etc should just become mixed sex

The answer is usually no

Ask why women’s spaces/sports/prisons are kept separate from men’s

When they mention safety ask what it is about a male bodied person claiming to be a woman that removes that risk/advantage

Best to ask simple short questions and not let them wiggle out or distract. Keep pinned to that point

Theu love to lead you down some ridiculous path with appeal to emotion/fallacy of the absurd etc

[–] Carrots90 8 points Edited

When they say things about safety existsnceI just say

Rachael Dolezal exists and is valid. She has the right to see herself as she wishes and should be physically safe in doing so

She does NOT have the right to avail herself to spaces, places, and things that Bipoc have set aside for themselves to work towards equality and opportunity and counteract a lifetime and history of oppression thwt they suffer based on being BIPOC.

Dolezal facing pushback for trying appropriate BIPOC identity is not the same as her suffering anti transracial discrimination any more than it is her suffering from anti-BIPOC discrimination

"that's not the same at all" and why not? "it just is, you bigot"

Off the top of my head:

Can you define the word woman without using the word woman or stereotypes?

How do you practically measure your gender idendity? (Practically as opposed to the 'waking up tomorrow as the opposite sex' thought experiment)

How can I tell if I'm cisgender or agender?

When they call me names or accuse me if things I usually tell them to add that to their questionable reality

My one TRA friend who has still stuck around post me coming out about being GC always argues my reasoned, scientific points with "but I FEEL like gender is real."

It drives me insane. We mostly try not to talk about it. I can't argue logic against a religious delusion.

My mother has a psychiatric condition where she believes that her neighbor tries to kill her by funneling toxins to her apartment in various ways (through ventilation, balcony, windows, etc.). All her senses tell her she is right. She lost so much weight. When she calls us telling us she is dying, you can hear how frightened she is.

It's so heartbreaking, but all of this thought me that personal feelings can be so deceiving. And I became even more sceptical of TRA ever since.

I'm sorry 😞 That sounds awful.

Our feelings trick each and every one of us, every day. From finding something scarier than it really is to thinking we can hear someone else's thoughts to feeling a close personal relationship with Jesus to thinking we're "nonbinary" to feeling too depressed to see any potential future ahead of us. Really scary how we're encouraging people to see their feelings as factual evidence...

The laziness is as much moral as it is intellectual.

At uni they'd use the "this is triggering for me" get-out-of-jail card because you could get suspended for making someone uncomfortable. I'm a slow thinker and have vestiges of a former stutter, so it's not like I was difficult to argue with anyway if they'd had even a drop of logic to their argument.

Now I don't bother. I don't think it's productive to engage with them.

[+] [Deleted] 17 points
[–] Jade 16 points

It's not laziness, it's mental gymnastics and gaslighting.

One must really be the opposite of lazy if they're going through all the biological facts and twisting them in a way that will convince a large group of people.

I was just thinking to myself the other day how much more effort it seems trancels and transbians go through to try to get sexual attention than if they actually just cleaned their rooms and started to conscientiously apply themselves to improving over time. And then I remembered that it’s a fetish and a cult. 🙁

I have, once. I was volunteering in a group of very diverse people from all backgrounds and I do not remember how it came up, ended up talking to this one kid (he was about 19, I had a decade on him and had been a bit of a mentor) about gender critical feminism etc. His arguments were very emotional and all centred around HSTS. I basically reassured him that yes, I do know it is hard for highly effeminate gay men, and I can understand why they would wear dresses or makeup, but they still are not women and do not belong in women's spaces. Very firmly compassionate of HSTS suffering while holding the line for women's rights. It went back and forth for a couple months via email.

I did think I'd gotten through to him, but we lost touch for a few years and when I got involved again, he was very aggressively FUCK TERFS etc and the rest of the TRA CRT stuff. But...he never outed me as a TERF when he certainly did know my views. And now he is married to a nice highly effeminate gay man who wears dresses...but still calls himself male. So maybe I did get through to him a little bit in the end, but it is very hard to tell.

The initial exchange was probably around 2015, though years are very hazy through the 2010s for me in terms of what happened when. I do not think I would be so bold speaking to a member of this group today, because they are extreme genderist hardliners now.

No, never. Even the smartest people I know instantly become intellectually dishonest and use argumentative fallacies when it comes to trans rights, which is something they usually never do.

[–] Archie 2 points Edited

I've met good (not great) scientists doing the same with their religion. Again an exemple of TRAs ideas following the same patterns.

Once, I guess. It was a TIM spreading misinformation on a supposed TIM pregnancy. I tracked down the original article, which was about a woman with MRKH syndrome, who was able to give birth after a uterus transplant. (From a recently deceased woman, which was the newsworthy aspect.) I also explained that male pregnancy was extremely unlikely to ever be possible. The TIM accepted that he was wrong, but then got suicidal about how he wasn't a "real man" (implied because of a botched circumcision) and couldn't become a "real woman" (implied by giving birth) either. So I basically told him to hang in there and backed out of the conversation.

Yep. One of my close friends is not exactly full on tra but very sympathetic. They do a very emotionally charged job with young people and have a good education.

In my view their personal experiences of trans young people gives them a bit of a skewed view. They're not seeing the sexual side of it and the poor behaviour of many trans identified adults. Definitely not exposed to the blunt edge of some issues like women's prisons and DV services.

They tend to think there's some political benefit in blurring categories and performing difference. I kinda see where they're coming from, but think this version of queer theory is oddly rigid and retrogressive, as it relies on the stereotypes for the performance.

In every other area of feminism our views are more closely in alignment. They're very anti-porn, have a great understanding of how rape is culturallt reinforced etc... But like a lot of educated middle class, seem to have a 'kindness' blindspot for idpol nonsense.

I never bother arguing online. It just gets polarised and nuts. Even in real life you can walk people through your logic, they agree with you, and they then just revert to their original standpoint. It's weird!

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