Question Intellectual laziness of the trans movement

They are not so much intellectually lazy as simply not intellectual at all. It is a cult - the TCult - in which propaganda and thought control is used to make sure anyone indoctrinated into the cult is no loinger capable of critical thinking. It starts very specifically with certain aspects of gender ideology and eventually is generalized to the cult members entire life. This is why facts and well reasoned arguments won't work. You have to talk to them like very mind damaged cult members - because that is what they are.

Steven Hassan's books on how to get people to emerge from cult mind control are very relevant.

have you had any decent, intellectually productive arguments with genderists?

Lol, no. They’re incredibly emotional and they can’t take in any information that doesn’t align with their views. Go to any trans subreddit to see them claim not only to be women, but biological females. Of course they can back these claims up with arguments that are totally supported by science. Anyone not buying it gets called a nazi or some other equally charming insult. Or just simply told to “kill yourself c*nt”. I’ve stopped arguing with TRAs, it’s a waste of time.

I was active on the debate subreddit for years before the ban and the only intellectually productive arguments I had during that time were with other GCers.

There are questions I’d asked multiple people over the years that I still haven’t gotten answers to— and I don’t mean inconsistent, incoherent answers (though there were plenty of those too), I mean QT wouldn't touch them at all, despite them being basic questions.

So many transwomen would show up for a day and then rage quit.

My one TRA friend who has still stuck around post me coming out about being GC always argues my reasoned, scientific points with "but I FEEL like gender is real."

It drives me insane. We mostly try not to talk about it. I can't argue logic against a religious delusion.

The laziness is as much moral as it is intellectual.

At uni they'd use the "this is triggering for me" get-out-of-jail card because you could get suspended for making someone uncomfortable. I'm a slow thinker and have vestiges of a former stutter, so it's not like I was difficult to argue with anyway if they'd had even a drop of logic to their argument.

Now I don't bother. I don't think it's productive to engage with them.

It's not laziness, it's mental gymnastics and gaslighting.

One must really be the opposite of lazy if they're going through all the biological facts and twisting them in a way that will convince a large group of people.

I have, once. I was volunteering in a group of very diverse people from all backgrounds and I do not remember how it came up, ended up talking to this one kid (he was about 19, I had a decade on him and had been a bit of a mentor) about gender critical feminism etc. His arguments were very emotional and all centred around HSTS. I basically reassured him that yes, I do know it is hard for highly effeminate gay men, and I can understand why they would wear dresses or makeup, but they still are not women and do not belong in women's spaces. Very firmly compassionate of HSTS suffering while holding the line for women's rights. It went back and forth for a couple months via email.

I did think I'd gotten through to him, but we lost touch for a few years and when I got involved again, he was very aggressively FUCK TERFS etc and the rest of the TRA CRT stuff. But...he never outed me as a TERF when he certainly did know my views. And now he is married to a nice highly effeminate gay man who wears dresses...but still calls himself male. So maybe I did get through to him a little bit in the end, but it is very hard to tell.

The initial exchange was probably around 2015, though years are very hazy through the 2010s for me in terms of what happened when. I do not think I would be so bold speaking to a member of this group today, because they are extreme genderist hardliners now.

No, never. Even the smartest people I know instantly become intellectually dishonest and use argumentative fallacies when it comes to trans rights, which is something they usually never do.

Once, I guess. It was a TIM spreading misinformation on a supposed TIM pregnancy. I tracked down the original article, which was about a woman with MRKH syndrome, who was able to give birth after a uterus transplant. (From a recently deceased woman, which was the newsworthy aspect.) I also explained that male pregnancy was extremely unlikely to ever be possible. The TIM accepted that he was wrong, but then got suicidal about how he wasn't a "real man" (implied because of a botched circumcision) and couldn't become a "real woman" (implied by giving birth) either. So I basically told him to hang in there and backed out of the conversation.

Yep. One of my close friends is not exactly full on tra but very sympathetic. They do a very emotionally charged job with young people and have a good education.

In my view their personal experiences of trans young people gives them a bit of a skewed view. They're not seeing the sexual side of it and the poor behaviour of many trans identified adults. Definitely not exposed to the blunt edge of some issues like women's prisons and DV services.

They tend to think there's some political benefit in blurring categories and performing difference. I kinda see where they're coming from, but think this version of queer theory is oddly rigid and retrogressive, as it relies on the stereotypes for the performance.

In every other area of feminism our views are more closely in alignment. They're very anti-porn, have a great understanding of how rape is culturallt reinforced etc... But like a lot of educated middle class, seem to have a 'kindness' blindspot for idpol nonsense.

I never bother arguing online. It just gets polarised and nuts. Even in real life you can walk people through your logic, they agree with you, and they then just revert to their original standpoint. It's weird!