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I'm quite disappointed to see women here who are supposedly "gender critical" dismiss this woman so readily when it came to her "obviously unhinged " blogs like are you serious?? You're embarrassing and this is part of the reason it's getting increasingly hard to call myself GC. She was being attacked even by the ones who proudly call themselves TERFs you'd think they'd understand her a bit, but all these labels apparently mean we're pacifist and throw other women under the bus when it's bad optics. She is still a woman who is standing up to this ideology her own way, who has been abused herself but I guess it doesn't matter because "she makes us look bad" incredible. Her writing style is powerful and her rage is what's needed and being angry and reading women like her being rightfully angry as well is what made me see this ideology for what it is and because I felt that rage myself as should all of us. I just hate the absolute lack of female solidarity when it's inconvenient, like not even trying to understand her perspective just immediately villainizing her so we could be perceived as "the good ones". I guess im just disillusioned by how quickly these GCs were to paint her as this violent monster & compare her to TRAS like wtf?? also calling her mentally unstable, schizophrenic …and these are supposed to be feminists the fucking irony

Btw I'm not even gonna delve into her sexual assaults which she apologized and took full responsibility for, and the whole porn industry that she took part in as I obviously condemn it

I'm quite disappointed to see women here who are supposedly "gender critical" dismiss this woman so readily when it came to her "obviously unhinged " blogs like are you serious?? You're embarrassing and this is part of the reason it's getting increasingly hard to call myself GC. She was being attacked even by the ones who proudly call themselves TERFs you'd think they'd understand her a bit, but all these labels apparently mean we're pacifist and throw other women under the bus when it's bad optics. She is still a woman who is standing up to this ideology her own way, who has been abused herself but I guess it doesn't matter because "she makes us look bad" incredible. Her writing style is powerful and her rage is what's needed and being angry and reading women like her being rightfully angry as well is what made me see this ideology for what it is and because I felt that rage myself as should all of us. I just hate the absolute lack of female solidarity when it's inconvenient, like not even trying to understand her perspective just immediately villainizing her so we could be perceived as "the good ones". I guess im just disillusioned by how quickly these GCs were to paint her as this violent monster & compare her to TRAS like wtf?? also calling her mentally unstable, schizophrenic …and these are supposed to be feminists the fucking irony Btw I'm not even gonna delve into her sexual assaults which she apologized and took full responsibility for, and the whole porn industry that she took part in as I obviously condemn it

50 comments

I enjoyed the sheer powerful rage of her piece, but I totally understand why others aren't on board with the foul and violent language she used.

Surely though, there is no one true way to be a GC feminist? I very much appreciate that we all have a space here to discuss all this, and come to a mutual understanding of each other's thoughts and views and feelings, even when we do have sharp divisions of opinion.

I very much appreciate that we all have a space here to discuss all this, and come to a mutual understanding of each other's thoughts and views and feelings, even when we do have sharp divisions of opinion.

This is a really important statement and its always so inspiring to see whenever we discuss topics where we have sharp divisions of opinions. I hope that we can serve as an example for people outside of the Ovarit community because the world desperately needs this again. I’m so tired of tribalism.

[–] Turtlefuzz Flairy Godmother 32 points

She is still a woman who is standing up to this ideology her own way

She named prominent TIMs and said they should be lynched. That's completely uncalled for, and should be denounced.

Calling for death threats and violence is not the answer, as we point out with TRAs.

Exactly. It is not just bad optics, I have a moral disagreement with what she said.

Additionally, I have a moral problem with the fact that she assaulted and raped women, on video, and some of those videos were then monetized. "Well she said she was sorry" doesn't cut it for me.

Yes. I understand that she is both a victim and a victimizer but if one of those women she raped came forward to press charges, I would absolutely support a prison sentence for her. It doesn't matter if a rapist has a sob story or not, rape has to have consequences.

I thought what she had to say was powerful. We can't ignore women's voices just because they are rough. Being a women is rough. I don't have to agree with everything a woman has said or done to find value in her words. Every female perspective is important to me. The blog post that was copied here the other day just showed me how much we all have in common as women. She's deep into porn culture, but she still sees the truth of the trans madness. Obviously she has done bad things that she admits to and feels remorse for. That doesn't take away her credibility. Hell, how many men have done equal or worse and feel no remorse and face no consquences? How many male creators of any kind have committed sexual abuse and rape that we never hear about and we continue to support their work and listen to their voices? How many men do we know personally who have committed crimes we'll never know about but we still allow them in our lives? I find absolutely nothing wrong with reading the perspective of a woman deep in the pits of the worst patriarchy has to offer, and I will continue to fight so that other women never have to face the evils that she has.

These are the women we should be fighting for as well and providing exists for, making them feel safe and understood if not we're just pushing them away from our movements that are intended to help all kinds of women

[–] Mmmm_Brains 14 points Edited

Lot of women on here talk about fighting for and caring for those prostituted women, and yet they're balking when they're shown the reality of what that life can do to a person. She's not perfect, she's what came out of that abuse and degradation and you know what that's valid, we'll still fight for her liberation too.

I 100% agree. I've spent more time around broken women in bad situations than whole women living fulfilling lives. In fact I have been a broken girl in one bad situation after another, so I feel a kinship towards women like this. Truth can be ugly and hard to hear. Victims are not perfect people, nor can we expect them to be. They deserve our compassion regardless.

That's what's happening here imo, she's not the sanitized version of a woman, and there's a disconnect with people here because of that.

How many men have written fictional accounts of the rape and murder of women with slavering delight? How much philosophy and religion has been written in absolute seriousness about how women should be controlled and killed if they don’t submit? Lily Cade is showing us the price of all kinds of misogyny. She’s paid that price. We are supposed to be for her too. She unequivocally stated that women are her people and her tribe. How many of us have done the same?

[–] meranii 8 points Edited

I do not think we need to self-flagellate because one woman has, in a moment of desperation and rage, written something shitty and violent. It's tragic that the porn industry chewed her up and spit her out, and that she victimized so many women in a bid to cater to the male gaze more successfully. It is good, though, that she's speaking up because the machine that profited the most from all of it, is still running. In a way, the pornsick TiMs are symptoms of the entire woman-hating and objectifying depravity of that industry, so I get why she's angry as hell, even if I don't want anyone lynched (obviously)

I have seen, in my 25 years of reading online forums and social media, literally thousands of posts by men that were just as bad or worse than what she wrote. Not to mention actual videos and confessions of abuse and assault. And never have other men seen themselves or their political movements as personally responsible. Bringing this up is not whataboutism, it's pointing out the extreme double standards of patriarchy. A million men can enjoy women being abused from the comfort of their own homes, and pay for their continued degradation through porn, no one cares, don't kinkshame, blahblah. One woman, who was literally used and abused for years, tweets "violently", stop the presses, gendercritical feminism is to blame!

I don't think everyone here has to support her, but we also don't have to blame ourselves or attack her to "prove we're the sane ones". Women don't have to answer for everything another woman does, we have solidarity but we're not a hive mind. What we need to do is be heard and not back down so what happened to her and was done by her doesn't happen to other women.

[–] remove_the_veil 27 points Edited

I have tried to stay out of this as I didn't even know of this person's existance until a few days ago, and I'm still learning about her. But I will say one thing --- why in the world would anyone worry about 'optics' in regards to her? She is not a radical feminist. She speaks out about this issue, but I don't think she's ever claimed to be a radical feminist or to speak for them. She is a porn actress. That doesn't mean she has nothing of value to say, but it certainly does stand to reason that she will say and do things that go against what many feminists believe in, and even things we outright condemn. By all means, denounce whatever you will about her words and actions. But it's ridiculous to think that the TRAs jumping on this one, singular person somehow 'proves' them 'right' about gender critical feminists. They have been crying 'genocide' for SO LONG, even without any heated words of pent-up rage from this particular woman to reference. They will ALWAYS find something to use to twist in some way to make 'Terfs' look 'bad', all the while never ever daring to clean house themselves. This is classic double standards, expecting all women to be completely perfect at all times, or else NONE of us are worth listening to. While they get away with rape with impunity like the men they are. As if they ever listen to us even when we DO behave and speak perfectly?? They don't care -- the hate both the madonna and the wh*re.

It's pointless to worry about optics when we're talking about a lobby with HUGE amounts of money that controls the media and can buy whatever optics THEY want. When we're talking about aggressive males who harrass women, send rape and death threats (and worse), and do so over the slightest deviation from their disgusting, depraved doctrine. When we're talking about a group of people who think it's worse to misgender Chris Chan than it was for Chris Chan to rape his own mother.

Why waste energy worrying about what anyone on the TRA side thinks at this point? Why waste time even LOOKING at their melodramatic meltdowns on twitter? Say what you need to say to distance yourself from Ms. Cade if you feel you must, but don't do it out some sense of 'guilt' on behalf of yourself or the 'gender critical' community. You have done nothing wrong simply by existing and speaking the truth. They are ALWAYS going to hate us. Don't let them gaslight you into thinking you're the monster. Hold your heads high.

Exactly. I am tired of this BBC article becoming all about Lily Cade. The assaults she committed, while obviously horrible and unacceptable, have nothing to do with the article. It's accepted that she was most likely the inspiration for the cotton ceiling, so it would be stupid of the journalist not to interview her on this subject. She was shamed repeatedly online for not having sex with males, so it's not like you need to just take her word that it happened. There are receipts.

Turns out that victims can also be - surprise! - victimizers.

Lily Cade's history of assault doesn't mean the other victims in the BBC article were lieing. It doesn't change the fact that lesbians have been experiencing a particular type of sexual violence/coercion that is a systemic issue in LGBT spaces. Stonewall was quoted in the damn article comparing lesbians to racists - if that's not coercion, what is?

[–] NotCis 10 points Edited

I am sorry for how much she has suffered and for how much pain she seems to be in. I also denounce her calls for lynchings and executions of trans-identified people and make no apologies for that. It's not about policing anger - I'm an angry woman too and I have suffered far, far less than she has. I just draw the line at specific calls to violence and want to make it clear that she does not represent my views (my anger is more "get the fuck out of my bathroom" and "stop trying to speak over me, you male asshole" - but I'm perfectly happy for trans-identified people to do whatever they want to do in life as long as it doesn't infringe on women's rights). I do not share her views, do not think it's good for other women to share them, and do not think we need those views in the GC movement. Our movement is strong and growing stronger - why would we need to embrace a radical, violent isolated perspective? What good would it do?

We can still hope that Cade gets the help she needs on a personal level without embracing her ideology. It's not leaving her out to dry or failing to understand that she is angry, but the place for her to understand that depth of anger is in a therapist's office, not on the frontlines of female political advocacy.

[–] bumpyjerboa 15 points Edited

One thing I haven't seen mentioned or discussed is that JKR was completely calm, rational, and level in her writing of her big piece about this and TRAs levelled the exact same claims against her - that she wanted all trans people murdered.

I do wish Cade had chosen her words a little more carefully but honestly, no matter what anyone says in criticizing TRAs, those accusations will fly, won't they? A beloved children's author is painted as being just as "murderous" as a former porn star and admitted rapist.

It's not really about the words anyone chooses, it's about the fact that they are choosing words at all to express that they do not agree with the trans movement.

Amen to that sister. Amen. Placating doesn’t really work. Thanks to the other women here who pointed out that this is what trauma looks like.

[–] BlackCirce 🔮🐖🐖🐖 30 points

She’s a lesbian, a proudly prostituted woman, a woman who is fully woman identified. Very few feminists or women are going to listen to her or want to be associated with her. I don’t know what she did in the sex trade that got her canceled, but I will assume she pimped/raped other women, so she’s a pariah. Suggesting women or anybody use physical means to protect women’s interests puts her outside the circle of female political innocence.

The funny thing is she never asked for approval from feminists or other women, but women are so accustomed to the idea of deeming which of us are acceptable, they are withdrawing approval she never had or asked for. She admits she’s a monster, she’s bad and she’s an outsider, and women are rushing forward to disown a woman who they never claimed to begin with. The issue of Lily Cade has always been sanitized or avoided in discussions of the cotton ceiling, because she doesn’t fit any easy narrative about women’s politics. She’s the Julia we can all point at and say “do it to her!”

Many gender critical women are putting stock in appearing rational, reasonable, nonviolent and passive as a political strategy. The idea is the state and society will side with women speaking calmly and nicely in a specific accent against men who are screaming sexualized threats. Sidelining women who are truly angry and use vulgar language is part and parcel of the strategy.

As for radical/cultural feminists, lesbian separatists, misandrists and the like, the male focused and male led gender critical movement has made their use of us and our theories, protests, research, interpersonal support, money and personal pain. They’re done with us. They now have the clout they need to claim leadership and primacy in the movement and marginalize us as activists. Men have taken control of “gender critical” just like they took control of social justice oriented feminist spaces in the 2000-2010s. It happens every time and will continue to happen until women take the principle of separatism seriously. And its not too late to do that. Women only political spaces are popping up in secret again in response to the male and male-identified invasion of gender critical.

You do not need the gender critical label if you are a radical lesbian yourself or a radical feminist, because those movements are based on gender criticism and incorporate criticism of transsexualism. There is no “gender critical” without us.

I wholeheartedly agree with everything you've said. Thank you for commenting people like you restore my faith in these spaces honestly.

Many gender critical women are putting stock in appearing rational, reasonable, nonviolent and passive as a political strategy. The idea is the state and society will side with women speaking calmly and nicely in a specific accent against men who are screaming sexualized threats. Sidelining women who are truly angry and use vulgar language is part and parcel of the strategy.

Are you calling for a violent political strategy? It's honestly hard to tell because you have grouped some different ideas together here. But I'm commenting specifically on your use of the word 'nonviolent' as something negative.

[–] BlackCirce 🔮🐖🐖🐖 5 points

I’m not sure the femino-politically correct way to say this but I am not a pacifist.

This is a really naïve take. You can write powerfully (see: Dworkin) without calling for violence.

This is also my take on it.

She can be angry. She should be angry. She can use any kind of language she wants, vulgar or not. Being a porn star (or ex porn star I'm not sure) is not a problem.

Calling for violence against trans people IS a problem.

[–] remquarqk 13 points Edited

It's honestly worrying to me to see anyone here not agreeing with this.

I don’t think she is seriously calling for actual violence. I took that as the hyperbole of polemic to exhort us to stop being namby pamby placaters.

I agree. I saw the TRA tweets saying she was calling for the "mass murder" of trans women and went back and reread and I did not take it in that manner at all.

Probably.

But unfortunately, everything WE say is scrutinized and weaponized to the nth degree while TRA's can literally advocate for murder and rape and get away with it. It's just not a good look when they take it (in or out of context) and makes it very hard for us to argue that we're not the ones issuing threats.

[–] Mikkal 28 points Edited

This is the "apology" she supposedly wrote - I could only find it referenced on a gossip site with no receipts (no archive, no screen shots).

She doesn't blame the victims here - she takes full responsibility. I have never seen a man take responsibility like this. Never.

I remember my father, after he'd been arrested, coaching me about "how he'd never done x" to me - he was lying through his teeth to protect his reputation, to prevent everyone - my mother, the police, our family from being aware of the full depravity of what he'd done.

I will say - she writes like a woman with PTSD. I don't say that to discredit her, to throw her under the bus, to diminish her in any way. I say it to acknowledge I've been there with her.

The monsters don't need to hurt all women. They need to hurt just enough of us to scare all the other women and keep us in line. To keep us afraid. A few women are the examples to everyone else - you don't have to have been personally hurt to be impacted by the violence against women. You're impacted to. You have a right to single sex spaces too.

Again - I can't find any proof she wrote it, but this is what everyone is passing around as her confession, if you want to read it.

I’m sorry, everyone. I have let you all down.

I’ve always hooked up with girls at porn parties and conventions, frequently on camera, in front of witnesses. I did this because I thought it was wanted, and that girls enjoyed it. The cameras enjoyed it, anyway. It was an organic thing at first. I did it before I was even really in porn and was a piece of how I got in. As the years wore on, I started to feel obligated to do it. It was my “thing”. The cameras would follow me around and I would get up to my usual hijinks. I tweeted about this. I posted pictures on social media. I didn’t conceptualize any of this as assualt, or I wouldn’t have done it much less promoted it.

Eventually, I started to hear complaints, through the grapevine. No one said anything to my face, but people complained to each other, and eventually it made it’s way to me without names or details that some girls didn’t appreciate the bathroom trips. I felt thrown, because I had thought of these as mutually pleasurable activities. My thinking was warped – I thought I was so good at reading people that I could tell when girls wanted it. I lived to get girls off. I thought of myself as being a good person. I wanted to stand for sexual freedom, not sexual coercion. I thought was on the side of the light. I have failed.

I’m deeply embarrassed by these revelations. I did not want to be evil. I remember the incidents with Jasmine Summers, Honey Gold and Maren. I misread the situations so completely that it came as a shock to me that these girls experienced them as assaults. I was aware of some situations where I’d crossed lines, but I didn’t know that these were among them. I didn’t know they felt violated by me. I feel gross about it. I feel stupid. I tweeted about all of these girls, posting photos of Honey and video of Maren. I gave them my number afterwards. I wasn’t ashamed about this, because I didn’t think there was anything to be ashamed of.

I feel ashamed now. I thought that that girls went along with me because they enjoyed it, but they did it because they felt like they couldn’t say no. I thought it was all in fun, but it wasn’t. I played a sexual predator in movies, but it was supposed to be tongue in cheek. I thought of myself as someone who helped girls in the business, not preyed on them. I thought of myself as an artist, not a monster. On the same party bus where Maren says I ruined her Exxotica, I shoved Ron Jeremy for refusing to back off from trying to get in some lesbian action. At another party, I broke Max Hardcore’s nose. I thought I was better than porn’s serial gropers, but I guess I was just the female of the species.

I’m deeply sorry for the way that I made these girls feel. I’m sorry to anyone I have hurt. I engaged in so much “partying” – I don’t know how much of it was ok and how much of it was damaging. I knew I had gotten lost in my persona and had been taking steps to come out of it and get treatment for my mental health. I had already stopped the substance use and the public sex, but it was too late. I am sorry from the bottom of my heart. I can’t take it back, and I don’t expect to be forgiven. I’m seeing a lot of warnings about staying away from me. You don’t have to stay away from me. I will be staying away. I will not be attending the award shows this season. You have nothing more to fear from me. This “party” is over.

If you have been harmed by me and wish to talk to me about it, I am here to listen and make amends if possible.

Thank you I've read her apology on twitter from TRAS themselves, but I do agree she most probably has PTSD I can imagine from being in the porn industry for so long.. what bothered me is the dismissiveness in calling her unhinged because of her writing style? have they not read Kathy acker she writes similarly to her. And I'm so sorry to hear your abuser didn't take responsibly for what he's done to you which must've been horrible to go through

Thank you.

Keep in mind when the TRAs read her work, they aren't looking to understand her point of view. They are looking to attack her. What can they use to attack her.

With Maya Forstater - they lied and lied and repeated the lies until people thought it was the truth. They said "she had a transgender coworker and misgendered them!" The reality was she misgendered a non-binary individual online, and apologized for it. The truth doesn't matter.

Most people on twitter will only read the excerpts that were selected for them to read - and taken out of context, when she says she's died before - they think that's "crazy" because they didn't read the full article or the Cliff Notes - they have no idea what she means. She's clearly not dead, therefore, she must have lost connection with reality?

There is a lot in there that taken out of context sounds pretty off the wall - it's a lot of exaggeration and hyperbole and I love that kind of talk, I use it too, and I know I get a lot of flack online constantly:

"There were NOT A MILLION X"...

Come on, I was using an exaggeration so obvious it was one... aka hyperbole... and not literally meaning "one million"...

Her writings seemd incomprehensible to me but whatever, I just don’t understand why we needed a link to a porn site

I think the link to the porn site was taken down almost immediately? The rest was either reposted or archived. It goes against the rules to link directly to something like that here.

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