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QuestionWhere did the idea that lesbians are not women come from?
Apparently some lesbians in Germany did not call themselves women according to this article about FLINTA : https://www.gaytimes.com/culture/what-does-flinta-mean/
This driveby at Monique Wittig is misguided, unsuppported and uncalled for. She is a brilliant theorist and should be read. She is a foundational radical, materialist feminist essayist and novelist.
For example, ever wonder why the ONLY question is "What is a woman?" never, "What is a man?" Ever wonder why they want to do away with the word woman altogether but never man? Why gay men are same sex attracted, but lesbians are "non-men" attracted to "non-men"?
Well Wittig answered this question before it was asked: "Gender is the linguistic index of the political opposition between the sexes". Only one gender exists: the feminine, the masculine not being a gender. The masculine is not the masculine but the general, as the masculine experience is normalized over the experience of the feminine.
The reference here is to The Straight Mind: In 1978, at the MLA conference in New York, Wittig delivered her ‘The Straight Mind’ speech, ending with the now famous ‘lesbians are not women’. While this sentence has been subsequently (mis-)interpreted, it relates to Wittig’s understanding of the woman: ‘it would be incorrect to say that lesbians associate, make love, live with women, for "woman" has meaning only in heterosexual systems of thought and heterosexual economic systems’ (‘The Straight Mind’).
"Gender is the linguistic index of the political opposition between the sexes".
Sorry, but this quote reads like pretentious academic gibberish to me.
Only one gender exists: the feminine, the masculine not being a gender. The masculine is not the masculine but the general, as the masculine experience is normalized over the experience of the feminine.
If the masculine is not the masculine but the general, how come it's called the masculine instead of the general?
I agree that when it comes to the set of sex stereotypes that add up to and constitute gender when referring to human males and females, the masculine is held up over the feminine and what's considered masculine is seen as superior to what's regarded as feminine. I agree that in the eyes of men and male-dominated society, male humans (and other animals) are considered to be the norm, and females are seen as the deviation from the norm - the other, and a diminished, defective, lesser other at that.
But still, the fact remains that the masculine is called the masculine. It's not called the normal or the norm. Nor is it called the archetype, the prototype, the typical, the neutral, the standard, the model, the template, the paradigm, the original, the superior or the better. It's got it's very own word: the masculine.
Whether in a grammar sense or a cultural sense, the term masculine has long existed as a special word that describes traits and things stereotypically associated with maleness. The word masculine is analgous to the word feminine, and it's paired with/against the feminine as the opposite of the feminine. In addition, the relationship between the two is hierarchal, with the masculine regarded as being in the top position, a postion of superiority and dominance over the feminine, and the female below the masculine on the bottom in a position of inferiority and subservience to the masculine.
In grammar, there has always been a third gender too - neuter - that's an alternative to both the masculine and the feminine.
When speaking of humans rather than grammar, the equivalent of neuter in grammar is androgynous - and for as long as there have been human cultures, there have always have been a number of other words in addition to masculine, feminine and androgynous that have been invented to describe other gender categories - or variations, shades or flavors of gender categories - found in humans: eunuch, castrato, ladyboy, sissy, effeminate man, "girly man," emasculated man, macho man, man's man, laddish boy, patriarch, tomboy, butch woman, mannish woman, girly girl, sex bomb, sex kitten, Lolita/loli, matron, frump, hag, crone, Faʻafafine, hijira, bacha bazi, bacha posh, katoey, swish, nancy boy, namby-pamby, poof, poofter, limp-wristed man, Hermaphrodite, satyr, wolf, wuss, white feather...
So I don't see how you can claim that "only one gender exists: the feminine" as incontrovertible fact.
I mean no offense by this. I haven't studied gender theory the way you have so I realize I am missing tons. But from my perspective as an untutored but still pretty intelligent outsider, many of the assertions made by those well versed in gender theory such as "only one gender exists: the feminine" and "gender is the linguistic index of the political opposition between the sexes" leave me scratching my head and wondering "what the hell does that really mean?"
The Straight Mind is not that long of a read. It is important to understand the intellectual context but it seems incredibly obvious that man has been seen as neutral--that is why they are the subjects of all medical inquiry and women are not. As a lifelong student, I have practiced intellectual humility, that is, not passing judgement until I read the original and understood the context (social, historical, cultural--France, for example, and the French language, in which the male IS the neutral term bc French language is gendered.
I hope you will not be so quick to judge a lesbian materialist feminist. Radical feminists are our foremothers and have much to teach us, if we are open to it. To be clear, the statements assigned to me above, are not mine. I apologize for not properly citing. Although I have provided the entire Wittig essay here. It was given at the largest international literary study conference in academia. In it, she insists on the material reality of women against male French philosophers who make lots of claims about Woman, with a capital W.
As an aside, I almost always agree with your posts. This sort of response to me defending a very important radical feminist lesbian in women's and feminist history from some journalist who doesn't even defend her dismissal of an important feminist seems to miss the point of my post here. A lot of my posts are aimed at giving women the benefit of the doubt; there are very few posts where I criticize women. I wasn't critiquing the OP but the article. I am always critical of anyone who does not give women their due and respect. I believe strongly in hearing women out and learning from our foremothers. most esp feminists. I believe women should hold differing opinions and still be heard. SM seems to breed the opposite. I spoke about this on this thread; the frequency of impatience with hearing others out and the quick judgements are bumming me out, esp of women scholars. I am personally grateful to learn from others and am grateful for the new ideas and feminist thinkers I've been introduced to here.
I enjoyed both of your takes - always good to see two and more sides of a debate.
Glad you commented this because at first I assumed this was tied to the regressive return to sex based gender roles in the lgbt community. Very interesting, and I’ll have to read more about it.
Yeah, this gives me so much food for thought: "Gender is the linguistic index of the political opposition between the sexes" I always find it ludicrous to say that gender does not exist. First off, um, yeah the idea/word/concept of gender DEF exists and is not going anywhere, so denying that is of no use. But, redefining it (again, bc the feminists defined it FIRST) but going back to Wittig is sort of terrific: 'the political opposition between the sexes' is everything!
I am not sure where this is going and maybe I am missing something. I actually do see many discussions on what is a man, or what it means to be one, well outside of anything to do with "trans". One thing we can agree on is patriarchy drives the social bus, but that doesn't mean there aren't many views on how to best fulfill manhood. That is why being gay is so looked down upon, and being aligned with masculine traits isn't. That is why transwomen are driving their buses right over the definition of women.
It's true that men are the default human, but that doesn't mean that "maleness" is the default presentation, because even "men" are saddled with expectations. Also in the context above, I am not sure how "the experience of the feminine" is divorced from women, and "woman" only has meaning in heterosexuality.
While true I am a layperson, but I really never thought the definition of "woman" and "femininity" was tied to who you have sex with.
My point, simply put: Monique Wittig is a brilliant lesbian rad fem novelist and scholar and worth reading. No woman should be dismissed out of hand w/o a fair hearing (reading) as this journalist does. She provides no context of when/why/where Wittig makes a single claim--just a few words! This is exactly what people say about JKR ALL THE TIME and it is being repeated here. I am going to write what I would say to those who dismiss JKR are a transphobe: did you read what she wrote? Did you read her letter? Did you even look at what she was responding to?
As a feminist, I firmly believe we should read all our foremothers, learn as much as we can, and know the foundations of the movement, including writing from women all over the world. I would happily engage with anyone who has actually read The Straight Mind and Other Essays.. Indeed, Butler engages with it in Gender Trouble, so it is in fact a key feminist text to reclaim. I am glad women here are interested in engaging with these ideas but at some point, we owe it to their authors to hear them out, to do our due diligence before arguing with something we know very little about. If one is not sure of a single quote or phrase, it is better to go to the source, and give it its due (like I did with JKR when all my students were telling me she is now a 'transphobe' w/o providing me any real evidence except she didn't want TiMs in bathrooms so she must be a transphobe).
What is the conclusion of this essay of hers? Is she criticizing the idea that lesbians aren't women or encouraging lesbians to identify as non-women?
Witting was saying lesbians exist outside of how men define women. I have always found her writing to be liberating for lesbians.
To me it seems like a case of homophobia/sexual inversion theory. Some people think that just because something was done by people in past, it means it's good and groundbreaking. Such things aren't automatically bad either, but in this case it doesn't seem like a positive belief to me, especially if people want to imitate it nowadays.
It's true that to an homophobic society lesbians are seen as non-women (or at least failed women) and "wanting to be a man", but I don't see how embracing this concept is at all helpful. I have seen twitter kweers using Wittig to justify that lesbianism has nothing to do with women and that lesbians aren't even women. This is as dumb as non-binary identities
Monique Wittig
She said that lesbians weren’t women, but what she meant was that they’re not in the typical female gender role, i.e. not in a relationship with a man
As for calling us ‘men’, it’s all about stereotypes
I was prepared to hate this article as I worked through the word salad and still kind of do but it's an interesting discussion.
It reads like women who are "unconforming" are some feminist heroes but what are they conforming against, and as whom? Why is dressing "butch" some sort of feminist flag, and not giving a damn enough to care about gendered dress (so conforming because it's easier) isn't? I understand if you aren't going to conform there is only so many places to go and non conformists aren't exactly going to dress up in boxes like boxtrolls, or 70's style androgyny spacesuits, but also ... not everyone has time for this much work.
I was hoping feminist spaces would pull all women through away from the patriarchy, I just never thought trading one conforming for another was much of a "win" but a widening of acceptance. Maybe in this respect, Judith Butler embracing of non-binary is her hooking onto the "non-gendered" engine out of patriarchy but that leaves everyone not explicitly non-binary in a box of the non-binary's own making, back to shit like "cis".
This reads like "straight" is some sort of defeat, and the runner up to the word "cis", while even now "cis" encompasses lesbians.
Anyway, disjointed musings.
It reads like women who are "unconforming" are some feminist heroes but what are they conforming against, and as whom? Why is dressing "butch" some sort of feminist flag, and not giving a damn enough to care about gendered dress (so conforming because it's easier) isn't? I understand if you aren't going to conform there is only so many places to go and non conformists aren't exactly going to dress up in boxes like boxtrolls, or 70's style androgyny spacesuits, but also ... not everyone has time for this much work.>
And why are all things that women do or wear (or don’t wear) coded neutral when they’re in fact coded male? Why are we only non-conforming if we’re wearing misshapen men’s clothing not designed to fit us?
I understand that femininity is a way women have been controlled via dress, makeup, a million other things. I understand why it’s important to understand and fight these things. But I don’t think we have any idea what a female neutral looks like. Or in fact we do, think your average woman in joggers or sweats and a t shirt or hoodie, but these only seem to count as ‘neutral’ if the clothing in question is in fact male coded. Our very bodies make it impossible for us to be neutral in any current society.
Men really are the norm. Yes, we knew that already but it’s ground even deeper into all of us than I think we realize.
I've never heard of this.
be thankful. I hated it growing up. And now, how would you even respond without being told you are transphobic? I fear for young gender non conforming women.
They want to welcome those who may not have come out yet, who are transitioning, and who may not yet fall under any pre-defined category or letter yet—precisely those who often do not feel addressed, even though they should be included in the spirit of the event. No FLINTA* without the *—and way beyond.>
they want to include everyone.
They believe women are naturally feminine, which means if you don’t fulfill the feminine role you must not be a woman. Lesbians don’t center our lives around men, which is the most essential part of femininity, so we can’t possibly be true women.
It’s just plain basic old sexism
From what I've read, all "third sex" concepts from various cultures like two spirits, fa'afafine, etc... are exactly this. Pure sexism and strict adherence to gender roles, if a man or a woman is not stereotypical enough, then surely they'arent a man or a woman.
I'm appalled to see those concepts sometimes displayed as enlightenment of indigenous cultures.
Some cultures' versions of this are more benign than others'.
The fa'afafine of Samoa have probably the best (or at least the ("least bad") 3rd gender construct that I've seen for feminine men and boys. They never compete directly against Women in any form of organized competition—especially not in sports, where fa'afafine try out for, and occasionally make it into, top level men's teams just as TIMs should be expected to do everywhere else—and they traditionally help shoulder the burden of domestic labor for elderly, disabled, sick and injured Women in their communities (as opposed to modern TIMs in developed countries, who wear maid uniforms for fun and sexual kicks and STILL don't do any housework for the most part).
It's because a lot of people actually adore most sex stereotypes, because it's what they're used to and what they've shaped their identity around. But they also don't want to blatantly force gnc people into conformity, because that exposes the fact that they didn't truly choose to be feminine or masculine, they were socialised/pressured into it.
As long as they can pretend gnc people are a completely different category of people than them, they can avoid any critical thinking and cognitive dissonance around sex stereotypes. The only way to succesfully pretend feminine = woman is to kick out everyone who is a woman but not feminine.
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