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ResourceKhelif & Lin could easily prove they're female - if they were.
Thread from Reduxx journalist who originally broke the story. If they were female they could have easily proven it by now.
Today I was out a overheard a group of middle aged (50s) people discussing Khelif. The man said it was a similar genetic condition as Michael Phelps, which gives people long arms and now they are saying it's an "advantage." Then he tried to say it was misogyny that they were giving a hard time to khelif because she's female but Phelps didn't get a hard time.
I don't claim to understand everything about this situation or DSDs in general, but it's crazy how wrong these people are. There was no mention of XY, dude literally thought this was about Khelif being tall or having "long arms."
These people vote.
The funniest part was their mom (late 70s) was like "oh well she shouldn't compete. I didn't know Phelps had a condition that gave him an advantage. I wouldn't have rooted for him if I'd known."
The confusion is no accident. The narrative is being distorted on purpose. This person is a "cis" female athlete who was "born and raised" a girl, therefore if you oppose them in the sport you are just being transphobic??? It makes no sense.
Anyone with eyes knows that Khelif is male. Standing next to a woman it is obvious. I'm sorry he was born in a country that thinks no dick = female, but a female body is much more than just an absence of a dongle.
Anyone with eyes knows that Khelif is male.
This is exceedingly relevant. Part of the tactic and possibly goal of this movement is to convince us we cannot trust our own senses, instincts, knowing and perception of the world. If you can’t trust your own senses and perceptions, where do you look for truth? Always and only outside yourself.
This tactic, in many forms, is how cults gain mind control of their victims. It sets the stage for a population to accept authoritarian control as inevitable and maybe even a relief.
This is the underlying tactic imo. If you can convince ordinary people to lie to themselves, self silence, push aside ingrained alarm systems, then you can get away with anything.
And It's coming from the left. People accuse the right of being authoritarian, and they are, but so is the left, maybe even more so.
And this is why I am so lucky to have my best friend, who I have been able to explain to her facts (the fact that Khelif is MALE) and her not getting further confused, nor her getting angry at me upon receiving the explanation.
Regular individuals are still being captured by this garbage, especially if English is not their first language, and they live in another country. Thankfully though, most regular individuals are open to trusting their senses, including their critical thinking skills.
It also helps that the opening ceremony was such a shitshow, that my best friend was beside herself with how shocked she was. I can only hope that more people are coming to realize how batshit insane this has all come to and to throw it away.
Of course the TRAs are vehemently screaming on Reddit that Khelif is not a man, and also terminally online stans of specific sports, fandoms, and such, even going as far to ripping their mask off and sharing tweets saying “[specific woman athlete], come get your man and educate your husband on why him calling Khelif a man is WRONG AND EVIL!!&$&!”. Misogyny, misogyny
Anyone with eyes knows that Khelif is male. Standing next to a woman it is obvious.
"Youre misogynistic for thinking female athletes ought to look stereotypically feminine" <----- more dumb shit i keep reading on this topic
So I just ran across on facebook. His birth certificate was issued in 2018. He was born in 1999? So now it might be fake paperwork.
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=923876753102430&set=a.465682075588569
There was someone commenting something to this effect on the latest Daily Mail article about Khelif. Was mentioning that the “female” birth certificate wasn’t issued until Khelif was like 19 or something.
Funny how the only “ugly women” they will defend are men. Didn’t see a crusade staged on behalf of the strong jawed American rugby player who said she was excited about meeting guys in the Olympic Village, over the ridicule puny scrotes heaped on her for that.
I’m convinced they see a man as well as any of us except their brain just goes “friend-shaped” and they get defensive.
People don't know what they don't know. Remember that 50% of the population are below average intelligence. They don't stand much of a chance against the onslaught of propaganda. This is why it's a disgrace when supposedly reputable news outlets don't do their job and tell the truth in the simplest of terms.
Eventually many people will get wise to the DSD ruse just as they eventually cottoned on to the trans propaganda and worked out that a 'transwoman' was not a woman identifying as a man and that there isn't such thing as a sex change.
It will take time though and some journalism with integrity willing to go against the grain.
Unfortunately many average people still don't understand the trans issue. I've talked to a few people recently (within the last year) who still believe transwomen are women "transitioning" to men or that trans is a genetic condition.
I think the best way to counter the Phelps argument is to look at the gap between him and “regular” swimmers, and the compare it to the difference between female and male athletes. The advantage Phelps enjoys is considerably smaller than what male athletes have—and that’s why we have divided sports in the first place.
If there was a category for Phelps’s body, he would not be allowed to opt out of it
Well, we can't exactly blame them can we? The media that are supposed to reporting on this accurately are not. Most people don't follow these things closely so of course they just think whatever the mainstream discussion is which includes crazy lies circulated by transactivists that the major media outlets don't bother correcting. Wouldn't want to getin the way of pharm profits and 2STQIAA+ lobbyists.
It's strange they couldn't prove it even last year for Imane Khelif https://archive.ph/3JPbr
This X post has already been circulated quite a bit on Ovarit.
I posted it because someone else asked me to post it as a post--I originally posted it as a comment.
I’m currently in an internet fight with other women who insist that Swyer syndrome is a female DSD.
I just got told I should research before I “run my mouth”. Just because I said Y means man, no matter what.
But in my fancy internet research I found some site that said many people with Swyer syndrome have to take hormones to develop at all. That they have “streak gonads” not ovaries or testes and don’t generate enough hormones during puberty - and may take extra hormones (which type is up to them at the time).
What makes them think Khelif has Swyer syndrome? He looks like he went through male puberty to me.
I agree - that’s what mainstream media is saying. Basically in the absence of knowledge people are running with all number of ideas.
Though extremely rare, there have been cases of people with Swyer Syndrome successfully carrying a pregnancy to term with oocyte donation. For me at least, this makes it difficult to argue they're male.
But Khelif almost certainly doesn't have Swyer Syndrome.
The most common DSD I see being weaponized on social media is Swyer syndrome, also known as “XY gonadal dysgenesis.” This disorder occurs when the SRY gene on the Y chromosome, which directs male development, is either missing or inactive. Without this gene, the body cannot develop testes. However, instead of developing ovaries, the gonads remain undifferentiated. Crucially, the absence of testes means there is no testosterone production; thus, the fetus develops female internal (uterus and cervix) and external (vagina and vulva) anatomy. The lack of testosterone also prevents individuals with Swyer syndrome from undergoing male puberty, meaning they do not gain the physical advantages typical of male development, nor do they exhibit male-typical features. In other words, people with Swyer syndrome are not androgenized.
https://www.realityslaststand.com/p/fact-vs-fiction-olympic-boxer-imane
Swyer syndrome is what mainstream media is saying so …I will say I was trying to defend it from that perspective.
ETA: I feel like there has to be a line somewhere and I would probably exclude Swyer “people” from female sports.
Ps I reviewed the literature and in 2016 fewer than 13 live births in people with Swyer Syndrome - and their uterus can not properly “labor” so most have csections.
I’d be most concerned about the effects on the child. With a cohort of 13 there’s no way to know if it’s genetically safe to have them carry these children. Theres a lot of ways a mother’s body interacts with her childrens.
Curious, is that 13 for a specific country or 13 births globally. Not being pedantic. I was thinking yesterday about the numbers. DSDs as a whole account for 1 to 2 births in 10,000. The Cleveland Clinic states that there are 60 different conditions that qualify as DSDs but the Cleveland Clinic includes hypospadiasis which has been debated.
Even if you take the higher number of two births per 10,000 and assume that all 60 diagnoses of DSDs get an equal portion of that 2 per 10,000 (just for the purposes of this thought experiment, some DSDs are more common than others) that comes to 0.033 births per 10,000 with a DSD. That is 0.33 per 100,000 and 3.3 births per million.
If you take into account that DSDs don’t occur equally, the rarer diagnoses would be more like 1 in 10,000,000. If you did the math for people who become Olympic level athletes and then add that rarity to the rarity of DSDs it’s an incredibly small number.
Certainly much smaller (heh) than the number of women born and smaller than the number of women who become Olympic athletes. The screaming about fairness for people who comprise something like 1 in 10,000,000 to 1 in 100,000,000. These numbers clearly show that this is an attack on not only women’s sports but on women overall.
PS - There are 10,714 athletes at the Olympics this year with 48% female.
My link said “published literature” (which is probably why doctors even attempt it), so guessing global?
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214911216300273
Thank you. Do Swyer’s is incredibly rare. As are all DSDs. With these numbers added to the rarity of Olympic level athletes, the recruiters had to be looking specifically for men with DSDs to compete against women. This is an attack on women. All of the bleating about fairness for athletes with DSDs is part of the gaslighting.
Okay but if someone is XO (completely) how do we know whether the fuck up was a female fuck up or a male fuck up, ignoring the odds one of the parents has a bunch of defective gametes you could crack open
I haven't come up with an official name for this philosophical quandary but I'm considering calling it "god fucking dammit go away that's not the point"
Edit- though of another: when the dsd is a result of a X and the Y cross over, at what point do we regard it as an X with some Y slapped or a Y with some X slapped on. This one's pretty much guaranteed to annoy the fuck out of someone because in most cases it's pretty obvious but then it's like but what if though
I guess my defense for this is if you have a Y you should develop into a man unless gene expression gets screwed up.
Maybe they should be in the special Olympics?
Maybe they should be in the special Olympics?
The Special Olympics is for intellectual disabilities 😶 did you mean Paralympics
From my understanding: in 99.9% of cases XX --> female development XY (or just presence of Y) --> male development. But for some with Y it can't be activated: the andgrogens can't be processed like in CAIS, and there's something similar within Swyer where effectively the Y might as well not be there. Swyer don't develop ovaries, but otherwise develop all the female plumbing and none ofthe male, or at best some trace testes which are not really funcitonal. So they have no gonads of either sex and have to ake synthetic hormones. For me, this means they are female. Like technically it's a male DSD, in the sense that the male chromosome does not funcion, but the result is no male development at all. That means it's a male DSD that renders the person female developmentally.
What I've learned from reading the GC biologists is that it's really about how your body develops, and so we should be focusing on the development. The presence of Y is a great indicator that someone is male in almost all cases, but not every case, because of these bizarre anomalies. If someone with CAIS or Swyer wants to think of themselves as female (in Swyer they effectively are), I see no problem with it, since they experience no androgenic effects. PAIS or 5-ARD are different, those are definitely male. I think we should focus on that, not insisting that a Y chromosome always excludes someone from the F category, no matter what, becuase there is a "what" that matters in a tiny amount of cases.
My policy would be: presence of Y chromome = exclusion from female category unless DSD rendering Y inoperable can be shown.
The issue I have with that is, they are not female either because they don’t go through female puberty unless they take hormones, and they don’t develop ovaries. Sure no one can tell from the outside what they are but genetically they have XY chromosomes.
They won't go though any puberty if they don't take hormones, male or female. Male and female is by reproductive system. The chromosomes that get you there are almost always XX & XY, but not always. If we don't recognize the "not always" reality, we'll be as anti-science and dogmatic as the TRAs.
They won't go through any puberty if they don't take hormones, male or female.
So left on their own, they also don't fully develop as females. I don't think we need to split hairs that much.
Left on their own they won't develop as males either. They do not produce sex hormones at all. They already have female reprodcutive organs minus the ovaries. They are not male in any meaningful way, and are female in many meaningful ways. If we want to win women's rights back we can't start getting religious about chromosomes, ignoring how they actually produce male and female bodies.
There are quite a few conditions where puberty doesn't happen normally. Kallmann syndrome for example has nothing to do with "intersex". Puberty issues don't stop those affected from having a sex.
And females are females even before puberty, same with males.
I guess my opinion would be Y= exclusion from female sports but I don’t care about anything else (agreed).
ETA and yes I’m going to be a bit of a hardliner on this issue. I think otherwise it get muddied.
It's not fair to people who are actually female-- as in have female reproductive systems and no male advantage. It's not hard to test in these rare cases. One could bring a petition. https://x.com/zaelefty/status/1820128258303664418
I don't think these people would actually cause a scandal because they do not look like men from the outside. If the Olympics or any other sports tournament wants to include them they can do it privately. There's no need to make public anyone's medical test results.
I'm a bit confused about IBA's testing timeline. I see a lot of people claiming Khelif was tested in 2022 by the IBA and met their eligibility criteria and was allowed to compete then. The IBA itself says Khelif and Lin were disqualified in 2023 due to tests failed in both 2022 and 2023. If they failed tests in 2022, why were they allowed to compete in 2022 & 2023
e: typo
e2: in case anyone else who comes across this is wondering as well, the IBA clarified that the 2022 tests were inconclusive.
Not only have they made no effort to prove that they have XX chromosomes, they haven't even publicly stated that they do, or publicly denied that they're XY.
Lin did not appeal the IBA decision disqualifying him and Khelif appealed but then withdrew the appeal. I am guessing both their decisions were due to the fact that appealing would require them to cough up some evidence. When Caster Semenya appealed, the appeals process resulted in the public disclosure of the fact that Semenya is a man with XY 5-ard. Khelif and Lin no doubt do not want that to happen to them.
Absolutely