Yes, I agree. Denying that some of trans-identified people pass only weakens our stance. The stronger argument is that none of them become women, regardless of whether they pass, whether they have had any kind of cosmetic surgery, whether they’ve had voice training, whether they like the color pink, whether they always play the female character in video games, etc. None of these things make them women.

Just because some people successfully shoplift doesn’t mean we should stop calling theft a crime.

Yes, thank you. The earlier ovarit thread on how to clock TiMs was so frustrating because you can't always tell. And relying on things like hip ratios and hand size not only makes you more likely to be wrong but also makes you sound like a crazy person

My response has always been, "we don't catch 100% of shoplifters but we still make shoplifting illegal. And look at what happened to San Francisco when they decided to decriminalize it."

People still murder even though they can receive the death penalty for it. And many murders go unsolved. We don't just throw our hands up and say "whelp some people get away with murder so I guess murder away."

Bad behavior that harms others should be criminalized. Even if some people get away with it, criminalizing it with penalties works as a deterrent and punishes those who aren't deterred - providing some form of justice for their victims.

Also, it's not just that women don't want men in our intimate spaces bc for some strange reason it just makes us uncomfortable and unhappy. It's not like I just don't want to look at a big man while I'm touching up my lipstick (although gross, I don't). We don't want me to have free rein to our intimate spaces bc we know most men who want that, especially when they know it's wrong, pose physical and emotional danger to us. We know they are using our intimate spaces to attempt, or at the very least simulate, a form of unwanted sexual advance, invasion, or assault against us.

When "transwomen" say they just want to pee like everyone else, we know the vast majority of them are lying, it's as simple as that.

The claim that "we can always tell"

is not true because some trans women naturally have a smaller build including their hands and feet and do not have a particularly square jaw or observable Adam’s Apple. They may ‘pass’ convincingly enough for incidents in which unethical individuals have deceived straight men or lesbians into sexual activity to make the news and become the cause of discussion about whether this constitutes sexual assault. (I’d say “Yes.”) Some biological females can be suspected or assumed to be men. This may be because they naturally have a squarer jaw and larger build than is typical for women or because they favour a ‘butch’ aesthetic or because they identify as trans men and take testosterone.

Perhaps the individuals claiming to always be able to tell really do have an enhanced sex-detector which can be relied on 100% of the time, but most people do not and we need to consider such issues as they affect most people.

To this I would add that in debates over public policy as well as in personal arguments, I find it's usually best to avoid making universal claims using the royal "we" and the modifiers "always" and "never." Because even amongst groups where all the members share a common clearcut characteristic the way the females of our species do, there's inevitably going to be great variation in the mindset, powers of perception, levels of attentiveness, life experiences and situations of each individual member of the group.

There are about 4 billion girls and women alive today. It can't be assumed that every one who is female is endowed with the same exact abilities to suss out the sex of other people each one of us encounters with total accuracy. Girls and women vary a great deal in our powers of perception, and we vary a lot in our levels of attentiveness too.

Some women and girls have bad eyesight, and many of us develop poor eyesight with age. Some go through their whole lives with low IQ and learning disabilies. Some women and girls have autism or other neurological conditions which make it harder for them to pick up on and "correctly read" social cues. Many women develop dementia in time.

At one time or another in the course of life, many girls and women will end up being completely unconscious, heavily sedated, very out of it, or just plain groggy in hospitals, nursing/care homes, shelters, dorms, barracks and other settings where lots of other people are coming in and out, milling around and coming into close contact with us, touching us even.

There are cultural factors to consider too. Some girls and women have been raised in cultural and family milieus where looking at strangers directly and giving them "a good hard look" in a forthright, appraising way is "not the done thing" - especially not for girls and women.

What's more, even in the case of girls and women who are usually very good at sexing other people, and don't feel any cultural contraints about doing so, will inevitably find themselves in situations where they won't be able to sex other people as well as they normally do.

For example, a woman or girl who might be hypervigilant about paying attention to the sex of who's present and coming in and out of women's restrooms or changing rooms most of the time when she's on her own might be very distracted if she's got a couple of little kids or in tow that needs to keep her eye on, or if she's accompanying an elderly or disabled friend or relative who needs her attention and assistance.

A woman or girl who's normally ace at accurately sexing other people might be too distracted to so if she's in a restroom at school, work or a public place dealing with a consuming personal matter of pressing urgency like shock and emotional distress from having just gotten some very bad news or having an upsetting encounter with someone else - or from commonplace biological matters like really, really needing to use the toilet and rushing to do so; suddenly getting a bad bloody nose; pregnancy vomiting; menstruation and the messes that can come with it; miscarriage; flooding from fibroids or menopause; piles; having just wet her pants; or having to clean herself up and in a hurry after her top or other clothing just got covered with baby vomit, coffee, wine, food, sauce or condiments that could leave permanent stains if not removed quickly.

A woman or girl might be incautious, bleary-eyed and woozy when out and about in public places full of strangers some times coz she's tipsy or downright drunk off her ass or high as a kite from voluntarily imbibing alcohol or using recreational drugs - or because a predator has "slipped her mickey" or "roofied" her. She might be impaired from drugs taken for therapeutic reasons like benzos, narcotic painkillers or cold medicines. She might have a hard time seeing coz she's lost or broken her eyeglasses.

There are external environmental factors to consider too. Even the most hypervigilant and attentive woman who's got perfect vision and other reliable senses that normally enable her to sex strangers with a high degree of accuracy prtty much instantaneoulsy might be unable to tell the sex of others due to bad lighting, blocked views, extreme crowding, someone sneaking up behind her. Or she might not have the time to figure out until it's too late that the driver of the supposedly female-only cab or car service she ordered whose back seat she just got into is actually a man who's dressed and made himself up so that strangers will mistake him for a woman at first glance.

But all that said, the conclusion I always come to is this:

The onus for makng sure that spaces, sports and sevices that are supposed to be single-sex actually are single-sex in reality shouldn't be placed on the shoulders of those who legitimately have a right to those spaces, sports and services. The onus should be on the people who don't have the right to them.

Girls and women should not be saddled with the job of keeping boys and men out of female spaces, sports and services by having to be constantly on our guard and having to put time and energy into eyeing and inspecting everyone we come across in those spaces and spheres with suspicion so as to clock male interlopers. Girls and women should be able to trust that boys and men will stay out of women's and girls' spaces, sports and services because blokes have been raised and taught to know they don't belong there and that it's 100% unacceptable - as well as arrogant, invasive, colonialist, off-putting and creepy - for them to horn in. That's how things worked in most places most of the time for most everyone until relatively recently when gender identity ideology reared its ugly head and hordes of entitled boys and men felt emboldened to use ridiculous claims about how they see themselves - and to make demands about how they want the rest of the world to see them - as a free pass to insert themselves into female single-sex spaces, sports and services from which all males are supposed to be excluded simply because of their sex (unless they are infants or very young boys in the company of their mums or other female carers).

agree. I always disliked the "we can always tell" because 1. it's not true and 2. it's a derail.

yes, and regarding the "we" in "we can always tell"... not everyone can.

most women have good radar, and most men are obvious. but what about the women who don't, or the men who aren't...

even if we can't "always tell", we need rules that prohibit men from entering women's spaces. we need men to fear the consequences. we need women to be aware that if a man invades, and she can tell, he will be removed

She's right. Passing is a pipe dream for most men, but the existence of the few who do undermines the "we can always tell" argument and makes us look sheltered. I've been around many TIPs in activist and non-activist spaces, and can't "always tell."

Men should have the dignity and wherewithal to not go to a specified "woman's only" place, just as an atheist should have the dignity and wherewithal to not go to a religious ceremony because they can pass themselves off as a congregant. It's voyeuristic and intrusive, and there can be no motivation besides narcissism and disrespect.

If Blaire White was in the restroom with me and I didn’t know he was a he, I probably couldn’t tell. However, that level of passing is like 2 percent of Tim’s, especially when they talk.

So sure, a few very passing Tim’s might get through, but most Tim’s aren’t remotely passing and won’t.

Sorry but I'm not reading anything by anyone who refers to these men as any kind of woman. It's obvious that this woman must be some version of a "true trans" believer.

great comment by Shannon Thrace

The response "we can always tell" is a result of emotional dysregulation. It's meant to serve as an insult rather than address a problem.

I agree with this take.