172

'terf'
'truescum'/'transmed'
'tucute'
  1. 'terf' (slur used against) radfems/ radfem allies - 100% of men out of women's sex-segregated spaces

  2. 'truscum’/'transmed' - anti-self ID, but believe in 'true trans'/'transsexuals’ as a special rights-bearing category separate from their sex, i.e. men should be in women's spaces if he meets certain unspecified criteria (e.g. diagnosis/ surgery/ hormones/ grc/ etc.)

  3. ‘tucute’ - pro-self ID, any man is entitled to women’s spaces

The “TRA movement” consists of people who believe 2. and 3.

The “GC movement” apparently now consists of people who believe 1. and 2.

I think people like Dr Julia Long, Sheila Jeffreys, Joey Brite, Magdalen Berns (rest in power), Dr EM, Kara Dansky, Jennifer Bilek, Amy Sousa, Kellie-Jay Keen, Venice Allen, Alix Aharon, Genevieve Gluck, Exulansic, Karen Davis, etc. are the first.

And I think people like Jane Clare Jones, Kathleen Stock, Jo Rowling (?), Helen Joyce, Julie Bindel, Stella O'Malley, Jessica Taylor, Jean Hatchet, Graham Linehan, Levi Pay, ArtyMorty, Jack Appleby, Benjamin Boyce, etc. are the second.

And I said “I think” because I’m not sure. People are very unclear about where they stand and I’m beginning to think this is deliberate because people who support the first (100% of men out of women's sex-segregated spaces) are those who are funding organisations by people who support the second.

I think organisations need to be clear on what they stand for before they ask for money.

Keep Prisons Single Sex and WoLF and Women’s Voices and Wild Woman Writing Club and Gender Mapper and 11th Hour are the first, but Women’s Place UK and Fair Play For Women and Genspect are apparently the second? Which I did not know until I posted yesterday and people showed me. And LGB Alliance. And now Sex Matters with Maya Forstater has advisory members who are the second?

Maya tweeted something vague about ‘working together’ and agreeing despite not agreeing on everything, after being asked about her position on this. But how can that be if the goals you’re working towards are completely different?

The ‘working together and agreeing despite not agreeing on everything’ was about women and men from all walks of life, across the political spectrum, coming together and agreeing that men are men and that women deserve sex-segregated spaces away from men. That's what that was about. Not for us to team up with TRAs.

Can someone who knows more about this than me clear this up? Thank you

EDIT: To clarify, all these terms ('terf', 'truscum', 'transmed', 'tucute') are TRA terms. They were used because descriptions of positions did not fit on the poll, and thus short descriptors were required instead. 'Terf' is not just an inaccurate acronym anymore, if it ever even was. It is a slur used to justify and encourage and excuse violence and hatred and vitriol against women who stand up for their rights. In this case, since I cannot edit the poll so that the first option reads 'radfem/ radfem ally', I would like to clarify that I am not using the slur as a literal characterisation of our position by claiming it to be an accurate acronym, but rather to describe the position of those whom the slur is used against. Hope this is clear.

1. 'terf' (slur used against) radfems/ radfem allies - 100% of men out of women's sex-segregated spaces 2. 'truscum’/'transmed' - anti-self ID, but believe in 'true trans'/'transsexuals’ as a special rights-bearing category separate from their sex, i.e. men should be in women's spaces if he meets certain unspecified criteria (e.g. diagnosis/ surgery/ hormones/ grc/ etc.) 3. ‘tucute’ - pro-self ID, any man is entitled to women’s spaces The “TRA movement” consists of people who believe 2. and 3. The “GC movement” apparently now consists of people who believe 1. and 2. I think people like Dr Julia Long, Sheila Jeffreys, Joey Brite, Magdalen Berns (rest in power), Dr EM, Kara Dansky, Jennifer Bilek, Amy Sousa, Kellie-Jay Keen, Venice Allen, Alix Aharon, Genevieve Gluck, Exulansic, Karen Davis, etc. are the first. And I think people like Jane Clare Jones, Kathleen Stock, Jo Rowling (?), Helen Joyce, Julie Bindel, Stella O'Malley, Jessica Taylor, Jean Hatchet, Graham Linehan, Levi Pay, ArtyMorty, Jack Appleby, Benjamin Boyce, etc. are the second. And I said “I think” because I’m not sure. People are very unclear about where they stand and I’m beginning to think this is deliberate because people who support the first (100% of men out of women's sex-segregated spaces) are those who are funding organisations by people who support the second. **I think organisations need to be clear on what they stand for before they ask for money.** Keep Prisons Single Sex and WoLF and Women’s Voices and Wild Woman Writing Club and Gender Mapper and 11th Hour are the first, but Women’s Place UK and Fair Play For Women and Genspect are apparently the second? Which I did not know until I posted yesterday and people showed me. And LGB Alliance. And now Sex Matters with Maya Forstater has advisory members who are the second? Maya tweeted something vague about ‘working together’ and agreeing despite not agreeing on everything, after being asked about her position on this. But how can that be if the goals you’re working towards are completely different? The ‘working together and agreeing despite not agreeing on everything’ was about women and men from all walks of life, across the political spectrum, coming together and agreeing that men are men and that women deserve sex-segregated spaces away from men. That's what that was about. Not for us to team up with TRAs. **Can someone who knows more about this than me clear this up? Thank you** **EDIT: To clarify, all these terms ('terf', 'truscum', 'transmed', 'tucute') are TRA terms. They were used because descriptions of positions did not fit on the poll, and thus short descriptors were required instead. 'Terf' is not just an inaccurate acronym anymore, if it ever even was. It is a slur used to justify and encourage and excuse violence and hatred and vitriol against women who stand up for their rights. In this case, since I cannot edit the poll so that the first option reads 'radfem/ radfem ally', I would like to clarify that I am not using the slur as a literal characterisation of our position by claiming it to be an accurate acronym, but rather to describe the position of those whom the slur is used against. Hope this is clear.**

141 comments

I used to be more sympathetic to the "True Trans" thing. But the TRAs made it clear where that shit leads. So fuck it! The small number of people with actual crippling dysphoria and all the dudes who already had the weiner chop can advocate for third spaces. I'm done letting women be their fucking nannies

Same.. Baby r/GC me was full on "oh, I'm sure there's nice trans just like there's some nice men".

They showed me otherwise in the years since.

Sure I'm sorry for the 0.01% that does get caught in the crossfire. But I'm sure they're also the ones that do not need to scream "not all" and understand.

I still am sure there are some nice trans-identified males, just like I'm sure there are some nice non-trans-identified males. BUT I don't want any men, however nice, in women's sex-segregated spaces. First, you can't tell how nice they are just by looking at them. Second, it opens the door to not-nice men. Third, they're men and there's no need for them to be in a space for women. I'm not opposed to having more "third spaces" (like single-occupancy restrooms), and I think the trans lobby is powerful enough they could get the ball rolling on that easily.

I don't think true trans people are real. I think that they are against the woke agenda of the TRA movement. So, a lot of them are still AGPs... they're just republicans.

[–] femlez34 3 points Edited

Same, I was okay with that 20 years ago when "trans" was exceptionally rare, they all had extensive medical treatment, and the only one's I'd met were homosexuals. Unfortunately that opened the door to a flood of AGPs sexually harassing lesbians and ruining women's sports, and online groomers convincing huge numbers of gay, autistic, mentally ill, and sexually abused children to make irreversible medical decisions. There's no way to walk it back at this point, we need to just throw the whole thing out and keep our spaces sex segregated. Or at least if we aim for that they may compromise on something "true trans" like only men with genital SRS in the women's room (not that TRAs will ever compromise on anything, I mean normal people/politicians), which will keep the majority of them out.

They can advocate for their own, third spaces.

I'm not cracking the door open for men again. Never again.

100%. I have ZERO in common with TIMs. There is no reason anything would be shared between me and them.

Even if there was a "tru trans" I still have more in common with regular males. There is no justification why we would share a space.

I have no objection to adding neutral spaces and services, but I'll fight tooth and nail if they try and obolish single sex spaces and the rights of women.

MERF all the way through

[–] SecondSkin 20 points Edited

Yep this ^

Terf, not only is a slur against us, but isn’t factual. Feminism has never excluded women who id as trans or nb. It doesn’t centre their views about gender, as they are the antithesis of feminist thought, but it will always fight for their (women) rights and recognise their right to be in women’s spaces and services (while refusing to change our factual language for their religion).

I don't think that any man who would knowingly violate women's boundaries should be welcome in women's spaces.

[–] Maplefields 39 points Edited

Didn’t put in my vote. I vote radfem. For sex segregated spaces. Keep men out of women’s spaces. TERF is a slur and it doesn’t accurately describe my stance. I won’t exclude TIFs from female spaces.

[–] GraceHoward1729 [OP] 2+2=4 20 points Edited

Yeah, this is my position, too. 'Terf' is a slur and I abhor using it. But some women are for sex-segregated spaces but aren't radical feminists, so I didn't want to say 'radfem'. And I tried to replace all three terms with descriptions, or what their usage implies, instead of the terms because 'truscum' and 'tucute' are TRA terms and I fucking hate using their obscene language, but the poll would not let me as the descriptions were too long. Then thought about saying 'gender critical' for the first option but this whole Circle is called gender critical and there are still people voting for the second option, so I don't think 'gender critical' means sex-segregated spaces anymore. So.. idk. Let me know if you have a better idea of what to replace 'terf' with that includes women who aren't radical feminists and men too I guess who support sex-segregated spaces. Because it's not 'gender critical' anymore.

About women who pretend to be men, yeah I won't exclude them from female spaces, but also I'm not about to fight for them to be excluded from male spaces. Idk, they're not a threat to men so if that's what they want, I don't know. But I'm also not a man so don't want to speak for them because they have spoken out about women invading their spaces, especially gay male spaces, so.. yeah not sure about that. Let me know what you think

EDIT: I'm an eejit. Just realised I could have said 'radfem/ radfem ally' jeez. well too late now. please vote, I can't edit the poll but I've changed it in the description.

[–] iCONIC 5 points Edited

Men, especially openly gay men, have a right to sex-segregated spaces. We women do not get to invade their bathrooms, bars, schools, sports, etc

TIFs should be excluded from male spaces for the sake of men's comfort and themselves. Men are a threat to women, correct? A TIF setting foot in male spaces is walking into her predators den and digging her own grave

Thanks for your reply. Yes I definitely agree about male spaces, especially gay male spaces.

I guess I wrote that thinking about women like Buck Angel who are adamantly against using female services and who most men (in her comments) talk about how 'manly' she is and how they would love her in their spaces/ bathrooms etc. So idk just because she provides less of a risk to those men, is it less of an issue than men in women's spaces? But yes men deserve their privacy and dignity, regardless of there being less of a risk to their safety.

Anyway, I agree with everything you said, thanks for making me think.

I don't think there are true trans because trans is not a real thing. At best it's a fashion statement; at worst it's a complete lie. We know mammals can't and don't change sex. If they could, they'd just do it; they wouldn't need surgery or prescription hormones. It'd just be a life stage, like losing a milk tooth or going into puberty, and like the way clownfish do a sex change (again, it just happens). Humans are mammals. We are not exempt from the general rules for mammalian physiology. A man who's gone on estradiol and gotten his jaw carved up and his weewee cut off isn't a woman, he's a man who's gone on estradiol and gotten his jaw carved up and his weewee cut off.

Whatever feelings a so-called "trans woman" has about his identity, those are just thoughts. They're just the brain entertaining itself. Anyone can have any thoughts at any time, it's not limited to a special human biological subcategory. At times I've wondered what it would be like to have a penis. I'm not a man, I'm a woman who has occasionally wondered what it would be like to have a penis. We're curious critters like that. It amazes me how many perfectly normal human thoughts and behaviors have been pathologized by this ridiculous movement.

Even with so-called "gender dysphoria," a LOT of trans people these days don't even have that.

I do think there are nice people, even nice men, who we'd normally label "trans." They aren't generally involved in this argument or, rarely, they are involved but have consistently come down on the side of women and girls. They also tend to be HSTS, I think. They're also very rare. I still don't think they're "true trans." Rather, they're human beings who have a particular problem and are dealing with it the best way they know how, and it just so happens they have stronger moral fiber than most of the people dealing with this issue in whatever way they're dealing with it. Stranger things have happened. I still don't want the male ones in female spaces. Because they're not assholes, they agree with me.

I should add that speaking of gender dysphoria, not only do not all self-IDed "trans people" have GD, most people with GD do not identify as trans, or didn't until very recently. There's a danger that if the "truscum" among the GC movement buy into this idea that GD automatically = real trans that we're just going to push more people into hurting themselves. So we really need to drop that ideology. That's all it ever was. Being uncomfortable with your body is not a special biological status that requires the use of women's bathrooms. It requires therapy and work for mitigation, if not cure.

No true trans, no compromise. We fought for our single sex spaces, and there's no need to open them to any male for any reason. Even if gender dyphoria does exist, which I'm sure it does, it's up to the individual to sort it out themselves and it doesn't grant them access to spaces for the wrong sex.

I also opted not to vote due to the use of TERF.

[–] GraceHoward1729 [OP] 2+2=4 6 points Edited

I cannot edit the poll, but I wrote it in the description of it in the post. I wasn't using the slur as a literal characterisation of our position by claiming the acronym to be accurate, but rather to describe the position of those whom the slur is used against. I couldn't just describe the three positions without using terms because it was too long to fit on the poll, so I just put it beneath the poll. I fucking hated using 'truscum', 'transmed', and 'tucute' as well, not just 'terf', because all four are TRA terms and using them is just using the language of the oppressor, but I couldn't find a way around it that would let me post the poll, sorry.

PS. 'Gender dysphoria' is defined as "a term that describes a sense of unease that a person may have because of a mismatch between their biological sex and their 'gender identity'". 'Gender identity' doesn't exist, so 'gender dysphoria' doesn't exist. The medical industry just pathologised a perfectly normal feeling of unease that is part of the human condition. You should read the sexist 'science' behind it (part 1 & part 2), by the brilliant Dr EM, if you haven't already.

PS. 'Gender dysphoria' is defined as "a term that describes a sense of unease that a person may have because of a mismatch between their biological sex and their 'gender identity'". 'Gender identity' doesn't exist, so 'gender dysphoria' doesn't exist. The medical industry just pathologised a perfectly normal feeling of unease that is part of the human condition. You should read the sexist 'science' behind it (part 1 & part 2), by the brilliant Dr EM, if you haven't already.

Should have used sex instead of gender here. I can buy there's a type of body dysphoria that makes people uncomfortable with their sexed characteristics. But, it's none of my concern and it doesn't entitle them to wrong sexed spaces. Gender dysphora is nonsense because gender identity is nonsense, agreed there.

Body dysmorphia, you mean? And yes, discomfort with one's body comes in many forms, sometimes with one's sexual characteristics. And yep, I agree, rejecting one's sex does not entitle you entry into the other.

Women do not need to comply with female socialisation to have all the answers, to fix everything for all other groups.

We can focus on our firm boundaries and needs and let trans identified males/all males come up with their own solution for these problems. Men need to fix men, not women expected to carry the burden of this emotional labour.

Women =adult human female. I sit radfem clear legal definitions and firm boundaries. No men are women or should be in women’s spaces. The rest of it is not our burden to fix and I refuse to comply with appeals to female socialisation to have all the right answers for men’s problems.

So who are the 17 geniuses that think there's such a thing as True Trans?

[–] Julie92845 7 points Edited

I believe there are people who really have body dysphoria and want to transition due to that - and not because they believe in gender stereotypes or because it just turns them on.

Are they the sex they want to transition to? No. But I still think they’re different than the women who transition because they want to escape sexism or the men who do it because it turns them on.

That’s what I think the “true” part means, they have true intentions and dysphoria.

who really have body dysphoria

Do you mean body dysmorphia?

and not because they believe in gender stereotypes or because it just turns them on

So what is the root of this body dysmorphia then?

they have true intentions and dysphoria

I think you should check out the sexist 'science' behind this idea: part 1 & part 2. It's a very interesting and eye-opening read.

While I don’t fundamentally disagree with you, there is apparently a difference between dysmorphia and dysphoria. In dysmorphia, you perceive your body inaccurately; in dysphoria, you are aware of how your body actually appears, but have deep distress about that and feel that is not how it ‘should’ be.

I would argue that some of the people we see identifying as trans seem to have actual dysmorphia, but the arguments and ‘discourse’ are generally around dysphoria.

I don't know but they do more damage to women than they realize.

I voted for 'truscum' initially since I tend to self-identify that way, but I withdrew my vote after reading the definitions provided in the OP.

I believe in 'true trans' in that I believe there are people who genuinely experience gender dysphoria, and that for some of them - in this world that's very dictated by gender roles and stereotypes - transition might be the best way to treat their dysphoria. That doesn't mean it's the only way, and perhaps in an ideal world, transition wouldn't exist at all.

I don't believe in 'true trans' in that I don't believe a TIM or TIF can become the sex they are transitioning to, no matter their intentions. A TIM will always be male; a TIF will always be female. I'm willing to respect their gender identity if it makes them comfortable, but I'm not willing to allow them into certain female-only spaces.

I think that, in reality, there are a lot of other positions.

For example, I have deep sympathy for those caught up in all of the trans stuff, and I think a medicalising model has failed a lot of them. I think, fundamentally, ‘transsexualism’ and everything around it came out of sexist and homophobic systems and doctors (and this is the actual link to intersex issues: that it all comes back to mid-20th century doctors trying to make people conform to sexist roles, out of a belief that this was the only way to be healthy and happy. The idea that people had to think they perfectly fitted in), but that leaves various people stuck in limbo, now. Even the pornsick, misogynistic men didn’t deserve to have their minds warped like this, and finding a way forward is going to be difficult.

I am happy to consider that solutions need to include a way for those people to live their lives, and that there is a real danger that the backlash against the ridiculous, dangerous individuals, practices, and ideology, when it finally unleashes, will target these people who have already been harmed.

And from a practical point of view, in the rare case that somebody actually passes, is anyone going to care in most cases? It’s not where our energy should be. But setting rules that rely on ‘passing’, rather than making it clear that no males are allowed in these spaces, is only going to set males who think they pass up for humiliating experiences. Which is why we can surely claim that any attempt to argue that ‘a case by case basis’ refers to individuals rather than situations is actually transphobic.

And, fundamentally, lots of people are really wrong about stuff; lots of people live their lives in ways I think are a bad idea. Beyond some boundaries, I think they should be allowed to do so, and not harrassed for it. Life is tough enough already. I think that’s probably where, for example, Rowling comes down.

Yes. I'm one of them.

Nice username. Why are you here?

Coz I want to learn what people here have to say, I happened to stumble upon this site after hearing about "TERFS" on reddit.

There are also a few topics discussed here that I agree with, specifically anti kink/anti porn/bdsm stances. Despite not considering myself a feminist, I do think that these things are harmful to society and want to see these conversations happen in the mainstream.

I used to be truscum/transmed before I peaked but now that I actually pay attention I can see the obvious fe/maleness in the attitudes and actions of even the truest of truetrans, so I'm 110% terf.

As far as I'm aware, LGB Alliance have always been trans-inclusive due to the fact that some trans people are LGB (and I'm not talking about the transbians, etc. here) - the T just chose to take their letter's absence from the organisation's name as bIgOtRy. Can't really comment on the others, though!

That CANNOT lose that male socialization. That fucking entitlement. That bullshit I'm trying to prepare my son for.

I will NOT unleash another fuckhead scrote manchild into society

Yep. I thought I was clear on the differences between male and female before the trans movement got big. Now I really see those differences in fine detail.

I think it's true for a lot of women - and that it's happening as a painful journey for some former handmaidens.

I don’t think transition is ever really the answer for problems, but if an adult with severe dysphoria makes that choice I’m like ¯_(ツ)_/¯. I won’t recognize you as a woman, but it’s also not my business. So somewhere between terf and truscum?

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