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DiscussionWhy Jo's boozy ladies' lunch pissed off TRAs so much
Several women who attended the lunch already wrote their thoughts and reflections about this, but there's one point I think they missed which is related to cancel culture. Specifically as to cancelled women. They thought if they cancelled women who don't follow the rules, these women would become pariahs and outcasts, like Hester Prynne, living a cold, miserable, lonely life in shame. And in the semi-fantasy world of online and social media, there's an illusion that women who are socially indicted are wilting away alone.
So caught up in the virtual world, it's almost easy to forget there's a real world. The photos of them looking so happy and well, drinking wine and eating pasta, were a visual shock to the mind. It turns out, virtual cancelling does not mean these women are now lepers banished and rotting away on a remote island in a leper colony. These women are still in the midst of society in real life, eating in restaurants and free to roam about. They're not isolated and miserable. After all that, they're even drinking and having fun, in the midst of society, in a restaurant!
It makes me think of the saying: Living well is the best revenge.
We often wonder how to cope when everything seems to be closing in for women as we lose our rights left and right. Was it just yesterday or the day before when someone posted and ask for advice how to cope, when this forum is the only place of escape? At the time when I read that post, I didn't know the answer. But Rowling is amazing again for showing us the way.
Live well. Especially if you are able to out your views, be assured you are on the right side of history. They can't take away your existence and your thoughts. Despite everything, you'll still be here, having the last laugh.
Definitely talk to her. Being unwanted, but born for appearances sake, is a form of child abuse in my opinion. Children deserve to be wanted and loved. And if she doesn’t like or actually want kids, it will ruin her life and she’ll just regret them and they will know they’re a burden to their primary parent.
I second that! I am this unwanted child. My mom gave birth once and thought having one child was enough, my dad insisted on having the second and she had me only because of that.
When I was a teen, she would often mention that and well, it was not a nice experience
People really do not think that much about it. I think it’s an awful thing to happen to a child and I hope more and more women continue to have only wanted children.
If you're not close this probably won't work but have her check out "regretful parents" on reddit. She sounds like me, I have never liked children but have sometimes felt guilty about not having them because family pressure and some vague feelings of missing out on a very specific life experience. But reading that sub is incredible refreshing because they do not sugar coat, you'll find many women outright saying they have destroyed their lives etc. i feel like you should only have a child when you have an overwhelming wish to have them, look forward to caring for them etc. which it doesn't sound like she has.
Such a great suggestion. That sub is such an eye-opener. Also recommend getting her a copy of Orna Donath's Regretting Motherhood. It's OK to not want to be a mother, or even just not have "being a mother" become your primary identity, and unfortunately once you have kids it is incredibly difficult for the world, your family, and even yourself to give any other thing you value in your life (yourself, your work, your art, etc.) priority over your motherhood.
FWIW I did not like children and thought babies were gross (seriously, I thought babies were like slugs and I found children intolerable). Then I got pregnant by accident (while married) and fell in love with my future kid and that was that. I don’t necessarily like all kids now, but I love my kid. I think a lot of women are like that.
However, I don’t think it’s wise to count on that radical change with something as life-changing as kids. As you pointed out, it’s not fair to her since she would almost certainly be the one taking care of them, and it’s really not fair to the kids. Edit: or her husband
I would approach her in a positive way, like “I’m so happy for you, great guy, and I hear you’re thinking about kids”. And then maybe be frank about how hard it was for you as a new mom and tell her you want to help her have a better experience. Maybe talk to her about how hard it was when you first had your daughter, and how you feel like it might have been easier if you had some practice/experience with newborns or young children. Learning everything for the first time on the go is not easy, it’s overwhelming! And then suggest to her that she spend more time with her nieces and nephews or volunteer with little kids? I guess, she’s going to make whatever decision she thinks is best, so the best you can do is help her make an informed one.
Edited to say: if her husband makes a ton of money, motherhood might end up being a lot easier for her. I know women who had baby-nurses and nannies and housekeepers and so on, and it’s a whole different world. Even just having one of those things would have been amazing.
Edited to say: if her husband makes a ton of money, motherhood might end up being a lot easier for her.
While they have a decent amount of money (they were able to buy a house in this shit economy), most of it now goes into mortgage. And they are going into debt to have a lavish wedding. This habit with finances is another reason I worry about them having a kid. LOL
They likely won't get help with child care from relatives because my mother works and cares for our disabled father. And her Fiance's parents are already raising other grandchildren. So its all on them unless they can afford nannies and sitters (which i doubt they can).
Oof. Well I think the best you can do is make sure she has her eyes wide open with any decision she makes.
I wonder if there’s a roundabout way of making her aware of the effects of unwanted kids on mothers and children. Like a movie that lays it all bare or a podcaster who talks about it sometimes. Rather than a subreddit, which may come across as really aggressive or judgmental to your sister.
Yeah, I'm not going to expose her to angry subreddits full of regretful, bitter parents. I think that is just as extreme and unrealistic as exposing her to tradwife/mommy content in the hopes of making her love babies
I'm thinking I'll let her know about my struggles (especially now that I have to juggle daily ABA on top of normal parenting). And make her aware that she has to prepare for the possibility of dealing with special needs on top of normal kid stuff
Poor kids.
Is she wealthy enough to hire a nanny and or cleaning person?
I doubt it.
I hope I'm over-thinking it and she'll actually be a great mom. But I'm also worried I might end up raising her kid.
I disagree with the other comments, I think you should probably talk to her. Don't let her ruin her life or a child's because she wants to make her hudband happy. It's very likely she'll end up resenting him or the hypothetical child. I know people will say it's different when it's yours but that isn't true for everyone, just check out the regretfulparents subreddit. Bringing a new life into the world isn't something you can just try out, it's not something you can ever take back, it's something that changes your life drastically forever, not something you should do on a whim or to please someone else. I'd probably send/show her testimonies from people who regretted having kids, people who openly talk about how hard it is to take care of a baby, show her people talking about traumatizing childbirth experiences and complications... Not to scare her, just to make her think if this is really something shes's willing to sacrifice. Maybe it would also be a good idea for her to babysit small kids, spend a lot of time with babies, to make her realize what her life would be like. I know it's easy to say you should just let her make her own desisions but the truth is that most people won't talk about the negatives and will treat parenthood like some club they must recruit new members to. Yeah she might feel different when it's her own, but is a child's life really something you should take a gamble on?
Edit to add; I'm of the opinion that wether or not to have kids is something you need to decide on yoir own, for yourself, not together as a couple. Even if she thinks it might be worth it if her husband's helping out, what if something happens? What if they get divorced and she gets sole custody, what if he unexpectedly passes away, what if the child has severe birth defects or disablilities, what if something happens to her during childbirth? Is she still going to be happy with her choice if in 10 years she's a single parent to a disabled child? It's easy to think "oh it won't happen to me" but if you have a child you need to be ready to be a parent no matter the circumstances.
Honestly, it’s horrifying when women have kids just to make men happy. Women are almost always the primary parent and if she doesn’t like kids, she’s going to hate her life and have regrets.
I didn’t always want kids, but I didn’t hate them and I adored interacting with my niece when she was small before I had my own. It’s true that you don’t feel the same way about others’ kids compared to your own, but if you’re hostile to other kids, you’re unlikely to like your own very much either. I don’t know what op can do really about it, but I feel really bad for the potential kids is this situation.
Thing is, I wouldn't be too worried about Baby Sister doing this to please her husband if she ever ONCE showed an interest in being a mom someday.
My twin sister is childfree by choice because she likes her freedom. But she LOVES kids and dotes on my daughter and all her friends' children. I wouldn't stick my nose in it if she changed her mind to please a man because at least she likes babies. But Baby Sister doesn't even seem to like her own niece. And that worries me
I'd probably send/show her testimonies from people who regretted having kids, people who openly talk about how hard it is to take care of a baby, show her people talking about traumatizing childbirth experiences and complications...
I don't know if I'd go into all the people who regret kids. Then it'll just seem like I'm straight up telling her not to do it because she'll suck at it. LOL
I'll probably just stick to my experiences and how overwhelmed I often feel because of how hard it is to have a kid when both parents need to work full-time. Even though I WANTED my daughter, there were times in the baby phase where I was so burnt out I felt like I regretted having her at all. So I worry what the burn out would be like for Baby Sister
I think sharing your experience might help. I personally love children and have babysat for my friend and my partner's sister. But hearing their honest experience about motherhood made me realise that I love my freedom more. So I love kids but don't want my own.
Many of us who are now adoring parents weren't really into kids in our teens and twenties. But like your sister we didn't actively hate them - we were just indifferent and found them annoying. I certainly never "coo-ed" over babies and don't find them universally appealing now. Some are very cute, others meh. Mostly seeing a newborn gives me a warm feeling because I know what a joy it must be for their parents.
As you grow older, your outlook on a lot of things changes. Things that seemed super exciting in your twenties no longer are (the thought of going to a dark sweaty nightclub shivers my spine these days - and not in a good way!) Other things that seemed as dull as all hell - gardening and cooking in my case - become new and engaging interests. And for me, in my thirties, suddenly having a child seemed like a huge and exciting adventure. Which it absolutely has been.
Also, having your own child is not the same as how you feel about other people's children. It's just entirely, utterly different. Things that may bore or irritate you about a random child may delight you in your own kid, or certainly not bother you nearly so much.
And I don't know if she understands that all that goes out the window once you have a baby.
It doesn't really. And certainly not indefinitely. There are many couples who manage to be super social still by arranging babysitters and so on. Your parents may also be only too keen to play a role.
Ultimately, it's still pretty rare that people who are merely indifferent to kids don't fall in love with them or have huge regrets. You know your sister best and maybe she will unfortunately be one of those people. And if that happens your family will have to figure it out. Maybe she'll go back to work very quickly and her husband will be the primary parent.
My mom keeps saying that the maternal instinct might kick in for her once she has her own baby. But I dunno. It still seems weird that she seems to feel nothing for my daughter (her fiance has interacted with my daughter more at family gatherings than she ever has).
Like, I get not wanting to coo at strangers' kids. But I would think there would be some affection for kids that one is actually related to
Not necessarily. I don't care for kids. I'm still largely indifferent to my nieces and nephews after having my own children. I do nice things for them, like make them clothes and birthday decorations in their requested themes, but I have to feign interest when they talk and generally would prefer if I didn't have to interact with them.
And yet my own children are enchanting. I can't get enough of those hilarious little geniuses.
Edit to add: your OP of your sister could be describing me. I 100% had kids for my husband. I don't regret it.
I think you should talk to her about it. I don't know how to bring it up since I've never been in this situation, so I'm sure other women will have tips on that.
My sister was absolutely sure she didn't want kids. Until she met my daughters and that switch flipped. Now she is engaged and wants kids.
My best friend has never wanted kids. She loves my girls and her niece, but she never changed her mind. She's totally happy being a dog mom.
Your sister doesn't sound like she will change her mind, even if she has her own child. I would at least try to talk to her and let her know she does not have to have a child out of obligation.
Have they thought about fostering children? That way they could find a child that fits their preferred parenting (infant vs child vs teen) and if the child gets adopted, they could choose to continue or not.
I have never fostered so I have no idea what the reality is. But maybe that's an option she could look into.
Personally, I would try to take the leap of discussing this with her somehow. From what you've described, I agree that it seems like it'd be a bad idea for your sister to compromise on having children just because her husband wants one. It's bad to bring a unwanted child into the world, and it would be unfair for that child to grow up unwanted and resented by their mother.
Having a child (or two) is not a genie that can be put back into the bottle (or... an egg that can be put back in the ovary, in this case??). Feel free to use that line in your discussion with her if you feel like it'd resonate.
Since you also mention that you two aren't close and might be likely to fight when discussing anything substantial, I might recommend an alternate medium for the discussion of this topic - send her an email about this instead of talking in person/over the phone. Putting it in an email can allow her more time and space to gather her thoughts about what you've said.
You could mention something like this in the email: "And I certainly don't want to come across as if I'm telling her not to marry this guy because I actually really love her fiance" - say that you like her fiance and they're a great couple, but you're concerned about this potential children situation.
You could mention things about how messy your house looks in the past three years since your daughter was born -- maybe you have some photos to illustrate? And all the things (going out with friends, throwing parties) you don't have time for now that you have a kid.
I don’t think you can say anything to her about it. People change as they grow and if you’re not close you can’t really know. I had a clean house and a good social life too until I had a baby, and I’ve never been a fan of other people’s babies, but I like mine a lot.
Being supportive in this case means trusting her to make her own decisions.
That said, maybe she could look after your daughter for a weekend to have a taste of it?
I agree with other posters that this isn't something you can discuss with this sister, given the age gap between you and the fact that aren't close. Even if you try, it seems doubtful any discussion would have a productive outcome.
Going just on what you've said about your sister here, if you really feel obligated to talk about children with her, it sounds like your best way in is through talking about the permanent changes to one's body and the sometimes debilitating consequences of having children.
What about the husband to be? Does he like kids? Will he be a good father?
If they do have kids, at least those kids will have a caring aunt.
I'm not sure there's much you can do if you aren't close. Have you ever discussed it with her fiance? Not in a heavy way, but do you get the impression he knows she would only be having them to please him?
I'm sure he knows. She isn't very enthusiastic about the prospect of children. And when his young nieces & nephews and my daughter are around at family gatherings, she avoids them like the plague
Ask her if her fiancé feels the same way. Women here saying she'll change her mind and really want kids at some point are going by themselves and their own social circles of families/other women with kids.
But there are women who never wanted kids and never changed our minds. Lots of us. And we meet a lot of women who just had kids anyway and regret it, when they are being honest and speaking freely.
Your sister may or may not change her mind. But she should tell her fiancé that she definitely doesn't want kids, because if she doesn't change her mind but has kids anyway, that is something he will have wanted to know right now.