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Debate Thread"Ethical Meat"
In response to feedback from users of the circle, we have decided to adopt a low-to-zero tolerance policy for carnist excuses and derailment. We've heard you all that you want a fully vegan space where you don't have to deal with that stuff.
In an effort to engage both vegans and non-vegans, and to provide education to dispel common anti-vegan rhetoric, we've decided to have a weekly Debate Thread.
This week we've decided to talk about so called "ethical meat." This is one of the most common non-vegan arguments I hear: that somewhere-over-the-rainbow exists your second uncle's magical "humane" farm where animals totally live out their full lives, without their babies being taken away, and they're slaughtered nice and kindly with a boop on the nose.
Conveniently, no one can answer logistical questions about how these nice lil old mcdonald farms can exist, while also meeting the massive demand for cheap meat. No one can tell me how these "humane farmers" will get milk from cows without removing the calves from the mother. No one can tell me why its morally justifiable when we don't need to eat meat.
I haven't been to this circle in a few days but yay I'm so glad my suggestion was taken! I will be sure to post here more often now. :)
And yeah, it is impossible for "humane/ethical" meat to exist at all in my opinion (even to meet a small demand), but certainly it is physically impossible to meet the existing (and growing, in fact) demand for meat. Meat and feminine protein products are already subsidized by the government. People who eat/drink these things are, in a sense, on a welfare diet. If they're getting their meat from the mythical "uncle's farm", then they may think that the are exempt from this, but the truth is that even smaller farmers can take advantage of some programs like that, and even when they can't, it leaves the question: "what is the true cost of meat?" Take away all the subsidies, and that includes subsidies for corn and soy which are fed to these animals, and how much does a cheeseburger really cost? Who would be able to afford it, and would it be okay that only a small percentage of the world's population (compared to now) could continue to eat meat? And what about quantity? Basically, meat consumption demographics would be not unlike they were pre-industrialization. Meat for the rich (and gout for good measure), staples and plants for the poor.
There is no humane way to kill a healthy being that doesn't want to die.
Edit: Would it be ethical to slaughter dogs in the same fashion in order to eat dog meat, or is that suddenly inhumane?
There's always that one edge lord carnist who's like "I would try dog meat". But yeah, framing it as an animal that we are socialized not to think of food/a product can be helpful. I have also met people who say it's racist to argue dog meat is wrong; I think they are missing the point. As vegans we think all meat is wrong, but at Yulin Festival protests in the UK or the US you can find carnists who think eating dog meat is wrong, those people just end up doing mental gymnastics when you challenge them. Like if you'll eat mutton, why not earth mutton (alt name for dog meat)? It's a damn good question with no good answer other than, "I guess I'll be vegan from now on…"
FWIW, when I was not vegan or vegetarian I ate dog meat. And now I explain to people that there is no difference between a dog and a pig: when I was eating pig, I was also open to dog. Then, when I learned how animals are treated on farms and in slaughterhouses, I could not eat either. But on either side of the equation, species-ism is just illogical. As you say, requires mental gymnastics. It is frustrating to see people upset about dog farms but not pig farms.
Yes, what you're saying and you're experience demonstrates what I was saying perfectly. I've met people who have eaten dog meat, and some people have told me knowing I was vegan thinking they would get a rise out of me especially for that, but they don't. Because I don't see dogs as different to cows or pigs. Pigs are more intelligent, even (some people say dogs shouldn't be eaten because they're smart but they're not that smart, really).
Anyway, it's awesome that you went vegan! I can't say I ever ate dog meat but that's because I live in a place where that would be very unusual (culturally, and again hypocrites who eat pigs would condemn that), I did, before the age of ten, eat cows and pigs and chickens and whatever goes into fish sticks, usual stuff for North Americans. If I grew up elsewhere I'd have eaten different animals, but just the same I'd like to think I'd realize it's wrong and stop. :)
Speaking of dogs and the argument "they're smart." Once I read (I think from Frans De Waal on facebook) that if you ask laymen to rank "smart" dog breeds and you ask scientists to rank dog breeds by intelligence, you will get totally different lists. That is because laymen consider an animal smart if it is trainable--it will do what you say--like a sheepdog. But scientific intelligence tests show that willful breeds, like pitbulls, are smarter. They are smart enough to make their own choices. So what people think of as "smart" is really just "obedient to humans." Isn't that interesting?
Super interesting. I love Frans de Waals's work, I've seen his lectures on youtube about animals intelligence (and emotional/compassion capacity), they are fascinating.