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There's a really great book "Princess: A True Story of Life Behind the Veil in Saudi Arabia" by Jean Sasson that shows how even the women in the royal family are treated like absolute dirt. How much worse are the lives of ordinary women.
All of the Abrahamic religions are patriarchal fantasies that degrade, dehumanize, and control women. Full stop.
I don't know why people do this, anytime we(ex-Muslims) bring up our horror stories, someone always brings up "okay but all religions are bad" seriously is it that hard to admit what some religions and cultures way worse the others. do you somehow lose something saying this
Personally, I think it's very important to make the distinction between "all religions are bad, and right now Islam in particular" and "Islam is bad".
It's far from systematic, but those who say the latter are often (far-)right wing conservative and sexist assholes. Those who say the former tend to be centrist or leftist and are often much better allies for women.
I feel like it is very important to make the difference between the two groups, and to show to which group we belong in order to have more trustworthy allies. So being specific matters, imo.
I didn't say all religions are bad though, I said that all of the Abrahamic religions are patriarchal; they are deeply intertwined related political/cultural/social projects that worship the same father god of abraham.
There is a difference though. Orthodox Judaism is oppressive to women (see the Netflix shows), but I don't see the others as being so. Fundamentalist Christianity oppresses women, but the more mainstream denominations let women be leaders, pastors, priests, even bishops. As someone mentioned, there's no evidence yet that Islam can be reformed or changed - unlike the others.
The patriarchal stuff is more difficult to remove though. Yes, it was built into society with the help of Christianity (in the west), and even if Christianity changes, the patriarchal structures are going to stay because they benefit the people in power so much. There's not much evidence that Christianity today is that interested in being radical feminist and dismantling what they helped create. They're just happy with small changes and virtue signalling. (On a smaller scale there can be significant change.)
women in the dark ages in Europe had more rights and freedoms then Muslim right now, its not a good comparison
Yes. I think we're saying the same thing. Islam oppresses women even more than women in the middle ages in Europe.
(Note: "dark ages" was because the Rennaisance wanted to boost their street cred. They really weren't dark. Lots of advances happened and the Medieval period was instrumental in laying the ground work for the scientific revolution.)
I'm not going to claim that Orthodox Judaism is perfect when it comes to women, but Netflix goes for stories from the most extreme groups and dramatizes them. It's just not an accurate depiction.
If you want to learn more, Frieda Vizel is ex-Satmar (and Satmar is one of the most extreme Chassidic groups) and had written some criticisms of those shows. She's also shown a lot of rad fem sympathies.
Many religious texts if followed to the letter would be at best socially awkward and worst impact human rights. This is not exclusive to Islam. The Q'uaran, the Bible are products of their time and are steeped in misogyny. That doesn't mean that modern followers have to be. Feminists like Hibi Wardwere are Muslim and use their faith for good, as do many Christians. Don't forget that the men and women fleeing the Taliban are also, likely peaceloving, Muslims. As are other victims of bombing and terrorism attacks in Muslim countries. Furthermore, many factors that we think are Muslim are cultural in origin rather than religious. Islam, like Christianity, calls for modest dress. Burkas are cultural in origin and can also be seen in Hindu culture with similar geographical areas.
The fact that this is male violence, originally funded by governments, enabled further as citizens are abandoned by the government is where this is a feminist issue.
well they aren't following the Quran though, the Quran is just the stories of the Bene Israeli(the jews) The "real" story of Jesus(in which he was prophet not the son of God) and the conflict between the Quraish Tribe and the Hashmitie Tribe over Mecca, There's not even Much about written about Muhammad, he's not a full animated character in the Quran, the Quran also weirdly enough over empathizes his connection to Abraham then any other Prophet
90% of what Muslims and non-Muslims associate with Islam comes from the Hadiths(sayings and doings of the Prophet), written over 100 years after his death, and there's a library worth of Hadiths, all from the Abbasid era
If what you say is true then it seems that Muslims should just ditch the Hadiths since they make no sense and are all made up centuries after the fact anyway, and keep the Qur'an which is their sacred book for emotional value and is about just as bad as the Bible except since apparently it's in ancient Arabic most people can't understand it anyway. This sounds easy enough to reform for me, if not for narcissists wanting to impose a criminally evil rule and pretend it's moral.
Honestly most criminals are like that. They don't think what they're doing is wrong, because they can't feel empathy. As far as Elliot Rodger was concerned, his killing spree was caused by women rejecting him. You can't reason with someone who doesn't care about you as a human being. It's a character flaw.
I discussed this a couple times with Muslims online and the argument seems to be "that if we drop the Hadiths then we it won't be Islam anymore, we won't know how or what to pray" and their right, the Hadiths cover almost every minute aspect including how to piss properly and what direction you shouldn't piss in
This is insane... They claim Qur'an is their holy book but they can't even infer the basics of their religion from it?? How do they know that what they're doing is what Islam is supposed to be then?
I remembered hearing about "Quranic Muslims" but the ones I’ve heard about seem to be on their way out of the religion with one foot in the realm of Islam, attempting to reform it "from within." They’re taking baby steps on the way out (they just don’t know it yet).
well their making some effort at least, but even the Term Muslim isn't all that used in the Quran, the term Muslim gets used but not a lot, the most common term that Muhammad, his companions and Allah use to describe the followers of Allah is "Mumins" which is Just Arabic for believes similarly Allah isn't even a name, its just the Arabic word The God or "the deity in its direct translation
including how to piss properly and what direction you shouldn't piss in
Say sike rn 💀
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) passed by two graves. He said: Both (the dead) are being punished, but they are not being punished for a major (sin). One did not safeguard himself from urine. The other carried tales. He then called for a fresh twig and split it into two parts and planted one part on each grave and said: Perhaps their punishment may be mitigated as long as the twigs remain fresh. (Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: Sunan Ibn Mājah 349)
“Whoever tells you that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to urinate standing up, do not believe him. He only ever used to urinate sitting down.” (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, al-Tahaarah, 12; )
“Beware of the cursed ones.” Some people asked, “Who are the cursed ones?” He replied, “People who relieve themselves in public pathways or in shaded areas.”(Muslim 269.)
There are a couple others I can't find, but peeing while standing up is considered a big sin in Islam and this is what I mean the Hadiths cover everything including what do in case you accidently fart during prayers, what do if you your camel gets sick, why you shouldn't keep dogs
🥴
There is an entire library worth of Hadith sources, you can spend your entire life reading them and all and still not be finished, this is why Islamic law is so well aboustetly and everyone known how to impellent it
Absolute madness. Can’t believe anyone would willingly convert 🤦🏾♀️
As I have stated multiple times in this thread, this is what makes Islam unique among other religions, you can have a million interpretations of Christianity(for better or worse) but cause of the sheer volume of the Hadiths it holds the religion back to 7th Century Arabia, it can never evolve really, cause its greatest age already existed when Muhammad ruled Mecca and Madina and thus it is rational and logical for a good and devout Muslim to wish to implement the laws of that era
My country was ruled by Dictator, he wasn't a warlord or a Molvi rather he was an Educated Military officer, who frequently readers digest and books of warfare, he just happened to be an Islamist and when he got the power to do so, he implemented the laws that any Islamist would if given the power
so he enacted the the blasphemy law which gave death for insulting i.e even criticizing Muhammad or Islam, cutting off the hands of thieves, state mandated rape for women who were virgins before their execution(cause its forbidden to execute women who are virgins in Islam) and people supported him by the millions, cause 30-40% hold his exact same views and you can't remove them, a politician once just suggested that maybe we should remove the blasphemy law and he was assassinated by his own bodyguard, tens of millions of people celebrated the killer and built 3 shrine's in the killers name
Burkas are cultural in origin and can also be seen in Hindu culture with similar geographical areas.
I have never heard this. Don't burqas in the middle east out date the Islamic invasion of India, so how were they inspired by Hindu culture? Are you thinking of when Hindu women put the end of their sari or chunni/scarf over their head for modesty and/or to protect their head from the sun? Most Indian women have black hair so it helps to keep your hair from getting super hot on a sunny day. Also, women typically don't do this in South India which has less Islamic influences than North India.
The burqa is a specifically Pashtun thing, and it predates Islam, as do a lot of Middle Eastern veiling traditions.
Apparently the Taliban are big on not just Islam but a particularly Pashtun version of it, which also dates back a very long way.
I was thinking Purdah tradition, but upon further research it looks like Islam origins more likely. Nevertheless, we can't pretend that misogyny and keeping women under veils/in houses is an Islam invention. Ovid's metamorphosis mentions both these things so we can assume it was known of in Roman and Greek times.
Misogyny is accepted by all cultures, pretending Islam is an anomaly minimises sexism in our own society.
Misogyny is accepted by all cultures, pretending Islam is an anomaly minimises sexism in our own society.
🙄 you’re completely crapping all over OP’s point and doing the “but all X are bad!” equivocation fallacy.
I personally don't think brushing one particular religion as 'all bad' is a good path to go down. There should be room for growth and nuance.
I know, for example, that Hibo Wardwere has used her faith to persuade a lot of Muslims against continuing the tradition of fgm. I don't think she'd be as successful if operating outside that sphere. It wasn't meant as a namalt type comment, but more an observation that it's not unique in misogyny.
it's not unique in misogyny
Did you not read? It literally is. You did NAMALT yet again.
see Islam is not only a religion, but also the building block of a system of law (Sharia law). There is no Christian, Jewish, Buddhist equivalent to that. cause there's just not enough to create an entire system of law
its cause of the Hadiths
I think she's confusing the Purdah(from central India and parts of the Northwest) with the Burka
I read a book by an ex-Muslim who explained their culture relies heavily on respect for authority and not on individuals using logic and reasoning to debate ideas. And the “religion of peace” is really about submitting to Allah and these hadiths. If you submit and do what they tell you, you get all the reward, regardless of whether it seems cruel or not. I wonder if all the leftists who support Islam know about the teachings against dogs, let alone women.
What's the deal with dogs?
As I have said, a lot of Islam's theological positions are just Arab cultural beliefs of the time, for e.g Dogs who were nuisance to Bedouin traders are described as so unfilthy that their presence scares away Angels while on other hand cats .which Arabian traders often needed to scare eat any mice or hamsters are described as pure animals whose whose presence should be allowed even in Mosques
that's Islam, Mostly just 7th Century Arabian beliefs as a religion
And Islam can NEVER be reformed. Since the Quran is considered to be the LITERAL word of god, any reform to this would be considered blasphemy.
I mean the problem isn't the Quran(I've read it) its just a kinda shitty knockoff the Bible, the Story of Jews, The real Story of Jesus(in which he was a prophet not a God), an entire chapter dedicated to these random Arab prophets that came before Muhammad and the conflict between the Quraish Tribe and the Hashimites(Muhammad's tribe) and Muhammad isn't really a central character in the Quran and there's not many attributes about him, other then him being a Honest trader and his connection(both spiritual and blood related) to Abraham
If Islam was just the Quran it would be just as bad as Chrisantiy, However, when it comes to Islam cause of the Hadiths Islam becomes radically different from other religions . Christianity and Buddhism for e.g are built on moral principles that impose rules for mostly yourselves. Islam can't do that.. Islam is not only a religion, but also the building block of a system of law (Sharia law). There is no Christian, Jewish, Buddhist equivalent to that. cause there's just not enough to create an entire system of law
Judaism has halacha, which is also a system of religious law. It's very detailed, but there's also more wiggle room than Sharia seems to have. It's based heavily on the Talmud, which is massive but not particularly straightforward.
Like, we have laws about how you must treat any slaves you own, but no one claims that the existence of those laws means you should own slaves in the modern world. That's just not how the system works.
My understanding is that some of Islam's unique difficulty modernizing is that there's a claim to have already had an ideal society. So it's not merely a framework that you can apply to a bunch of different societies.
That's what I've been trying to explain, Muhammad(the greatest human being who will ever exist according to Islam) ruled over a state for 10 years(this according to Islam the greatest society that will evet exist, nothing will come close to 7th Century Arabia)
Which is scary and dangerous. Religion shouldn’t be a part of government or any anything else.
They have thousands of later addendums to the Quran called Hadiths, but I only know of hadiths who make things worse...
Yeah hadiths suck. Thankfully my family rejects them for the most part
There are still Muslim groups that believe the Quran itself encourages reform, such as the Ahmadiyya. I think it's wrong to paint all the Muslims with the same brush when we can also acknowledge that Catholics and Protestants aren't the same.
Ahmadiyyas don't believe in reform, they had just a guy who claimed to the descendent/reincarnation of Jesus and also the Messiah, his whole thing was trying to mix traditional Punjabi folk beliefs with Islam
According to their ideology, Jesus himself is the Messiah so how can he claim to be both entities? I think he is misinformed and doesn't represent the community as a whole. You already stated that he mixed it with Punjabi folk beliefs, and I believe this is something Muslims themselves would find offensive. I don't want to sound like an Islam apologist but I can't stand it when Christianity/Judaism are seen as diverse religions but Islam is portrayed as a monolith. I think we all assume familiarity with Christianity/Judaism because reformed variants are the norm around us but that doesn't make it a superior alternative to Islam. I think you mix up wrong information with historical facts about the Ahmadiyya community, I would recommond you read more about their history.
no according to Islamic theology is that their will Messiah that will come on the day of judgement
Yes they do believe in the Messiah but so do Christians. Or the phrase it better, the Christians and Muslims both think Jesus was the Messiah that has been but will return for the second time.
Twelver Shias do, he just went to occultation
I am not familiar with the Shias but as far as I know them I dislike them as much as Sunni Muslims but they're not similar to the group I talked about so this sounds like a distraction of our subject. I don't get this comparison.