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DiscussionChris Christie White Knighting Nikki Haley during debate
So I watched the GOP debate last night and there was a bizarre moment when Chris Christie defended Nikki Haley on stage against Vivek. It took me till this morning to process WTH was that, and why it irked me. I'm going to say some things here that will be quite nuanced, and which I'm certain MRAs will lap up to use against "feminists". But I'm going to say it anyway because I don't want the worry about MRAs being assholes to stop women from discussing issues relating to us.
BTW, I don't mean for this post to be about presidential politics or the GOP which is unrelated to this forum, so can we please leave those aside and stay on topic?
For those of you who didn't watch the debate (and I don't blame you), here's the clip.
On the surface, it seems like Christie was being a "good guy" standing up for Haley and call Vivek out. My immediate thought at the time was, "Is he thinking she might win and if so he wants an appointment in her administration?" But I immediately found that doubtful because the prospect of any of them winning the nomination over Trump is so farfetched. Also, if that was the case, he'd be negotiating with her campaign now behind the scene to drop out instead of standing in her way in NH.
Post debate, Megyn Kelly had a guest on (forgot his name and who he is) and she said he predicted Christie would do a Nikki Haley white knight moment, and she credited him for calling it before the debate.
So here's the deal, not only was this white knighting was a 100% self-serving, it was a dickwad move that simultaneously undermined her.
First, this kind of defending the opponent is a try and true strategy that makes one appear to be magnanimous. And it did exactly that. It made him look like the "nice guy", respectful, and OMG respectful of women!! Nikki Haley is an intelligent and accomplished woman!! He's so decent!
But in effect, what he did here was he made her looked like he needed his--and I hate having to bring in this word because it will now definitely feed MRA trolls, but it's exactly that--patriarchic protection. She is a woman running for possibly the most powerful position in the world. What I saw, was that he instantly made her look like she couldn't sit in the White House without some big men behind her.
So he accomplished two things at once that are both self-serving: he made himself looked elevated, and undermined her at the same time.
The thing is, she did not need his support against Vivek. She's been swatting Vivek like a fly in all 4 debates. He's "protection" was not needed. If he had an issue with Vivek and wanted to spar with him, he could've done all the calling out without brining her into it. What he in effect did, was he stole the spotlight from her when this was her fight. And he put her in a losing, impossible position. If she told him she doesn't need his help, she'd look ungrateful. She had no choice but to accept it. But it's clear on her face (to me anyway) that the whole time she knew what he was doing and she didn't want it. That's why she didn't thank him.
By defending her, being unexpected, he gave himself a shining moment that are now being reported all over the news. Way to get his name in the press the next day.
The whole thing was a show. If he sincerely wanted to call Vivek out for having a "women" problem, the way to do it would be off stage, not on stage during the campaign where he's jostling for attention and using her to give himself a shining moment, and to get his name in the papers post debate.
I'm sure MRAs reading this will be like--See, ok you feminists say your don't want us to help or defend you, so don't expect us to do anything for you anymore. You want EQUALITY!
Yeah well, no. We welcome help when help is actually sincere and not patronizing. If a woman or girl is being attacked and you're in the position to do something, and your motive is not to benefit yourself. That kind of help is not about men vs. women, but decent human beings helping each other who are in need.
Nikki Haley did not need his help last night. All she needed was to be treated to the same opportunity as everyone else on that stage. At no time did she appeared to be in need of any help from any of the other candidates.
I'm having a hard time imagining him or any male candidate coming to another male candidate's rescue like that. Maybe it could happen. IDK.
Anyway, just had to get this off my chest.
And I hate the gushing by that woman commentator in the YT clip. (Sorry IDK who she is.) But it's the first one I found. I don't find what Christie did to be gentlemanly. As I said, I see it as a self-serving move that in effect was designed to undermine a woman he's trying to crush in NH.
Of course it was for show, but I am glad he said it anyway! It helps when males police other males' conduct.
No it's not a good thing is what I'm saying. It makes her (and by extension women) look weak on the world stage. We don't need that.
I do have conflicted thoughts whether this helps as to males policing other male conduct. But in the end, I think what he did caused more damage than help.
To her, maybe. To other women, other men, and society in general, he did well to call this out in public.
I'm not sure about that. For women who advanced to higher positions, this is just bad. We don't need men to fight our fights when we don't need them. Also, there is something very empowering for women when we're able to hold our own against men acting like Vivek, which is annoying but honestly not tantamount to anything serious. It's something I don't think women in younger generations understand.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I agree it's bad for her, but I think it was good for others. My daughters were thrilled to see a man call out another man on this. It gave them hope.
Of course. Always a good thing when we can all agree to disagree.
One caveat though: Your daughters can some day be running for president too, or be in the running for a high level power position. Wouldn't it be equally bad for them in such cases that a man with ulterior motive comes to their "rescue", and steal their thunder and neutralize them?
Sure, but I know my daughters would say, loudly, "Thanks, but I can handle him myself!"
That's what Megyn Kelly said too, and I think we all would immediate think that. But I also see that a woman would have to be very very quick on her feet and think to do that in such a way that treads a very fine lone of not coming off like an ungrateful b*tch and turning everyone against her, especially on national TV. In the immediate moment it'd be a lot easier said than done. (sorry mod, the b word is used not as an insult but to make my very point.) Moreover in the conservative sphere it'd triply more difficult or else she'd fall right into affirming the "She's Hillary" attack DeSantis is right now lodging against her.
Ofc I doubt your daughters will be in conservative political sphere (correct me if I'm wrong). But my point is in reality it's easier said than done for. any women in high power position in that situation. Hopefully it won't be the case anymore when your daughters reach that stage.
Was Vivek just debating/arguing/bashing her any differently than he did the other men?
TBH it's more complicated than that. Right from the beginning Haley made a very smart and calculated move to make him her fodder to showcase her international political experience, probably because she knew she has nothing to lose by picking on him than the other Republican candidates. Thereafter the two of them just quickly became mortal enemies. Vivek is quite bombastic in his style as he's trying to be Trump 2.0 (like Trump but more an Ivy League crass than low-class crass.) He hits low and made a number of personal attacks against her including some that are sexist, and dragged her adult daughter into the debate. So yes he's bashing her differently than the other men, but the other men also weren't engaging in an ongoing spat with him like Haley was for months now (until Christie got in on it last night).
I think his sexist comments were more annoying than damaging. Things like referring to her high heels and lipstick.
Pure theater, and the most tiresome of good-ole-days cliches.
Methinks he came neither to bury nor praise Gov. Haley; rather, he was there only for the two-fer: landing a punch (albeit feebly) on Vivek and patronizing Nikki.
I hope she wins the nomination and takes him as VP
Make Republicanism Sane Again
Take him as VP? After everything I just explained about this shit move he pulled on her? God I hope not. He can go suck it.
There was a sarcastic headline that Christie must have been auditioning for MSNBC, but I can see it being true. Peripheral candidates like him are usually in it to get attention for a book or a new career move. "Former Presidential Candidate" looks pretty good on paper, but it isn't that hard to be one in the grand scheme of things.
I can see that. Also imagine he's angling for the conservative women vote. Considering the traditional patriarchal line is one of the benevolent, protective man handling everything so you don't have to 'worry your pretty little head about it,' IMO that's the image he was trying to serve there.
Editing to add: that isn't the stupidest angle to take, either, considering even Trump-supporting women tend to not love him as much as the men in his base do.
He's not getting conservative women's votes. Conservatives don't want him.
And unpopular opinion here: I don't agree that all conservative women are submissive SAH moms and trad wives wanting benevolent protective male support. There are conservative women like that no doubt. But IMO and experience, there is a segment of conservative women who feminists won't acknowledge or recognize, which are conservative/libertarian women who deem themselves very strong and independent, and in their view, male sexism exists but they don't want any liberal or Democratic type help because they can hold their own against men, and they don't want or need such help.
Can agree with all of that (I mean, hell, you've got Meghan Kelly moderating this thing, case in point), just suspect that might have something to do with his rationale. I don't think anyone thinks there's a snowball's chance in hell of a President Chris Christie other than him and his few supporters. That being said, only meant that if push came to shove between Trump-style sexism and Christie-style sexism, there are conservative women for whom the 'chivalrous' sort is more appealing than the Trump-ogling-his-own-daughter sort or the aggressively-disbelieving-women-have-anything-worth-listening-to sort, and he may be angling to try to differentiate himself in that way.
I think that none of these candidates would be up on the stage if they didn't believe that they have a chance. Christie is done, but he would be happy to be VP.
When I see the lead that Trump holds though I am always stunned. What the pollsters never explain ]is that although 50 percent of Republican voters would vote for him again, Republicans are only 25% of the voting public. So 50% of 25% of voters in the general election would mean that Trump would lose the general election. If independents got out and voted in the primaries Trump wouldn't even be the nominee. Why won't you ever see pundits or opinion writers urging independents to vote? Well because the news represents the extremes of both parties-- Biden or Trump
Independents generally cannot vote in any party's primaries. NH is one of the few rare exceptions. In almost all states voters need to be registered Republicans to vote or caucus in GOP primaries.
The get out the vote efforts should be heavily focused on getting out independents to vote down Trump.
I don’t think he made her look weak. He just said what everyone was thinking and tried to get the Indian Trump Jr. to stop harassing her. He only defended her for like 15 seconds. I just don’t see how it’s that big of a deal. Nikki held her own very well against Vivek. But he was being abusive to her - he needed to be called out. He was acting way more abusive and vicious towards Nikki than towards anyone else, on a level I’d never seen in a presidential debate. He is full of toxic masculinity. I think we should focus more on that, rather than getting upset with Christie for sticking up for someone he respects as a colleague.
It’s clear that Vivek has a personal issue with Nikki for whatever reason. Probably feels super threatened and competitive with her given she’s also Indian, female, and way more powerful and accomplished than him.
We have different opinions then. And maybe you're looking at it from a perspective on bad male behaviors. I'm talking about women who reached high places where the stakes are high. When you're trying to convince some of the wealthiest and most powerful of the country that you are the woman for the job and they should give you millions of $$$, and they can count on you, I guarantee you headlines and articles like this one is not one you want to see.
Chris Christie Had His Best GOP Debate and May Have Saved Nikki Haley
These rich donors are not looking to call out toxic masculinity. They're looking to see if they can bet on her to handle herself against toxic masculinity before they hand her millions of dollars.
And if she can't handle a gnat like Vivek, who's going to come to her rescue when she has to confront toxic masculinity on steroid like Putin and Xi Jinping?
Believe me. Chris Christie did her no favor.