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QuestionEqual opportunity employment revoked
What are the potential ramifications of this? I’m worried about what this means for the next four years, as a woman based in the US.
I've been thinking a lot about men's interest in policing the category "Man." There is a lot of talk about the category "Woman," but I think what's really going on with a lot of men is the desire to enforce the traditional boundaries of the category "Man." (I hope people understand the way I am using the words in quotes. Categories are related to material reality, but also humans/societies want to shore up the boundaries of certain things.) The reason I started thinking about this is because the places with the most machismo (rigid definitions of manliness) have big trans populations, especially homosexual transsexuals. Then I was thinking about how Iran will transition a man, but not let me him be homosexual. Also, Thai 'ladyboys.' etc.
So I started thinking that men are really committed to this idea that "Man" is a well-defined category, and everyone else (male and female) can be shoved in the other intellectual column, labeled "Woman." So, gay men traditionally get shoved in the "Woman" column; cross-dressers; sensitive guys, whatever. Men want to keep their category rigidly policed.
Therefore, to them it makes sense to say "transwomen are women" because they are happy to let a GNC male LEAVE their category (Man) and go over to the other group. And they're angry if anyone argues and insists that these unmanly men stay in their own lane.
Does that make sense?
It does make sense, and historically that's what's been going on : men who weren't deserving of the all holy "man" status were downgraded to the inferior status of "woman". However, the contrary was not possible : a woman who fit into more stereotypical "man" behavior gets retrograded to something even lesser, cause she needs to be punished as a non complying woman, and she can never deserve to be a man becahse she lacks the almighty organ.
So the parallel is very valid, but it would depend on how the woke bros you speak of view trans men. I agree there are a lot more concessions demanded of women in any way, but if they stick by TMAM, there's probably a different explanation.
I moved to a different state a few years ago but all of my estranged woke bro friends who now scream TWAW used to make fun of my TIF roommate behind her back and would say that she will never be a man. Almost all, if not all men’s sense of self revolves around what’s between their legs so you can’t tell me that they’ll ever view a female “man” without the penis as a real man. If they did then they’d actually be threatened by TIFs which they’re not.
I was in an anthro class many moons ago and the professor said, in cultures with "third gender categories," that it was very easy for men to leave the "man" category but incredibly difficult for women to leave the "woman" category. This was because women were considered lesser, so men could leave the "superior" category by lowering themselves to do traditionally feminine things, but women were already considered inferior and couldn't rise "above their station" by doing masculine things. That or they'd be brutalized for trying.
How about it's just a way of saying they hate feminists without looking like conservatives?
To get a little deeper.. it suits men to pretend that sex as a way of categorizing people doesn't matter, and that gender roles are innate. Men can probably intuit that gender ideology does not threaten their hierarchy and even secures it by making it harder to talk about
It's a backlash against feminism. These men have been sitting uncomfortably for a few years while it was socially acceptable to mock men. Now, suddenly, a new villain enters the stage! These men are no longer the bad guys! Every time they've wanted to talk shit about women, but feared being called sexist, can now be expressed because now they have a socially acceptable way to do so! The hatred they felt for women, that worried them a bit-- it's fine, it was actually hatred for terfs. They were just picking up on it before there was a word. Yes, sometimes they may have said some unacceptable things in the past, or maybe committed an assault or two when they were young and foolish, but it's okay, because at least they are growing as people, and terfs are so much worse. They're not really harmful. Not like those terfs.
It's a way of displacing their self-hatred and guilt because they're deeply insecure, and like most insecure men, they lash out at women.
Men support men, even ones in skirts.
Most of them won’t date a TIM but they get to trash women and that is the important part.
In my experience, they don't -- but I am also an older woman, and the older men I know generally put TIMs in the same category as they put crossdressers, fetishists, and "general perverts." They aren't going to be rude face-to-face, but they're also not going to support these guys sharing bathrooms with their wives/daughters/granddaughters.
That said, my assumption as to why a man who isn't a TIM would support the TRA movement would be because men really, really, really love pushing women's boundaries -- and to be able to do that while publicly shitting on women and getting away with it (AND being cheered on by so-called feminists? It's gotta be like hitting the jackpot!). I'm going to assume that any man who's spitting "terf" at women and screaming about trans rights is a nice guy, an MRA, or a misogynist. Or hey -- maybe he's the trifecta in the form of a male feminist!
TIMs in the same category as they put crossdressers, fetishists, and "general perverts.
They’re absolutely correct, too.
I think they all jump on the anti-terf bandwagon because it is the easiest and only socially appropriate acronym or group on which to vent all of their anger, hostility and collective rage.
Most have zero idea what it even means.
Besides that, all males are in the brotherhood. Regardless if straight men think TIMS are out in left field or not, they know that they are men.
Men always support other men at the expense of women.
Men know their boots are on women's necks. Men believe that, were the roles reversed, we would treat them the way they treat us. Therefore, men stick together in oppressing women.
I think some of them genuinely hate women and take this as an opportunity to be violent and insulting.
But I also think a lot of men also see us as inferior or less intelligent and autonomous pretty much unconsciously. They're also often attached to male privilege without necessarily realizing it and feel a lot of frustration when they can't just speak on top of us and explain things to us, therefore this new form of "feminism" they adhere to is perfect for them : they can say they are for the rights of women, because in many ways they are, while also dispensing from listening to us and regaining their power to tell us to sit down while they mansplain life to us.
They also tend to think of us as part of whichever ethnic/cultural group they are part of and are impressively unaware of how much we are often viewed not as members of that group but as possessions of said group, which is the men. In their woke mind, they speak to us as "cis" and "white" (or Black, or Native, etc) as if we were on the same level. Pseudo feminism that claims men know as much about womanhood than women, and puts everything on top of sex, allows them for a way to consider us as fellow oppressors and therefore impose their point of view on us (and the irony is completely lost on them).
This is gonna be another of my unpopular opinions, but I think this is due to a failure we had both as feminists and as a society : we attempted to teach equity to children, but we forgot, or didn't know how to counter, the massive influence of history and media, and that played against us
On the one hand, we teach our kids that boys and girls are equals and that we live in an equal society, but on the other hand they see thousands of years of history where men are in command and most of all a media and consumer culture which teaches boys that they are in command while girls are their NPCs, basically. Even men who don't consciously want this will identity with the men on the screens, and in the books, etc, and eventually internalize that they are on top of us. It must be distressing to let go of that, especially if it's unclear what it ahould be replaced for.
I think this is a really good analysis and I also guess that by standing against TERF, they expect libfem to see them as "nice guy" and therefore think they deserve sexual favour from them .
In some cases it might be that. But I simply don't believe all men do everything they do in the hopes of getting sexual favors from women.
All the men I know are in the "transwomen are men and we all know it, but we humor them a bit to make them feel better" boat - I don't really know any staunch TIM supporting men.
On average, TRA support is more a female thing - I think peer pressure tends to rope women into the "be kind", and women will enforce each other on that.
Men on average, are more likely to just shrug it off as "bollocks". And other men won't give them stick for that.
But for a minority of misogynistic men, this is a free pass to an all-you-can-eat misogyny buffet, so they'll really get into the TRA thing, and try to enforce it on women.
It helps them score points with woke libfem handmaidens. They know TWAW is bullshit, but if saying it helps them get laid, then so be it. They also hate women in general and being a tra allows them to be openly misogynistic.
Besides the point made here - that they feel threatened by feminists because they feel they’re taking away male power, so by supporting TIMs, they’re hurting the women they want to shut up so badly - it’s also simply something that doesn’t affect them. So they don’t see why we can’t play along. They can’t relate to us.
Men can’t understand why we can’t “just take a joke” (about rape) or “take a compliment” (about our “awesome t-ts” from a stranger) or why we can’t just work harder if we want to have the same pay as them (blind to the fact that we already are). Since those things don’t hurt them, they simply don’t see why they should care about them. Since men hurting women isn’t men hurting men, they frankly don’t give a shit, don’t see why anybody should be talking about it, and in fact think that anyone who brings it up is just a whiner who’s out to complain for no good reason.
by being a militant TRA they know they're protecting other men AND they get to terrorize, bully, and rag on women. it's like a two for one for them.
Maybe it's different in Germany but here TRAs are almost exclusively female. And of these few ones most haven't even heard of terfs.
A lot of them are probably GC in the making anyway since they haven't been completely exposed to the madness.
When it comes to prisons, dating or sports men are fairly anti TRA anyway.
The staunch TRA supporters have accepted the common narrative that TIMs are the most oppressed people ever, and that everyone who doesn't completely agree with transgender ideology is a bigot.
Then they ignore or actively hate on women who disagree.
It's also easier for them to imagine and empathize with the struggles of a TIM, because these are male struggles, like for example the cotton ceiling.
They respect the right of their fellow males to live out their fetish. Women who stick up for themselves are a bunch of uppity bitches.
A lot these wokebros have fetishes of their own. Trans acceptance is a proxy for kink acceptance.
Broyalty.
I think the “trans women” they are most likely to defend are actually the AGPs (since they don’t get pressured for sex with them) and are more likely to kill the homosexual ones, out of extreme homophobia and fear of being “fooled” or “made gay”.
They might nominally support homosexual trans identified males, because that is what is more palatable to the world stage, people see them as more vulnerable, less threatening, and more akin to actual women than the AGP.
Also, barring people like Paris Lees and Monroe Bergdorf, I think some of the more prominent homosexual transgender males like Blair White and Rose of Dawn are just more like-able. I don’t agree with Rose of Dawn on everything, but I do feel like Rose is a good person and someone I’d like in person.
Finally, it allows men to attack women. 🤗
My boyfriend doesn't like them at all, in fact he's repulsed by them, but at the same time he doesn't like me being "mean" when I'm discussing the impacts of TIF's in feminism. In the end of the day men will continue to support other men, whether those men are TIF or not. The difference is some will be grossed out and some wont. Plus men will use any excuse to shit on actual feminists.
The men I'm close to don't support TRAs at all. They think gender ideology is garbage but don't want to speak up or get involved because they're scared of getting fired from their jobs or slammed on social media.
I'm not actually sure that this is correct outside of those who practice performative wokeness. Look at the gay male community. They are one of the only communities that seems to have been successful at repelling some of the most outlandish TRA non-sense (ie. TIF being a gay man). Of those who practice performative wokeness I am not sure that they even care for their cause célèbre outside of the points it scores them on demonstrating their virtue.
I think this question is a good example of what has happened with this debate. An extremely small group of violently vocal "activists" have managed to create this narrative that supposes that a huge number of people are heavily invested in the cause of trans rights. In my experience that couldn't be further from the truth with a great many people not giving a fuck.
Yes, that's true. The overrepresentation is crazy though - they're supposed to be 1% of the population or something and 99,9% of posts in ActualLesbians is from transbians or some rant about TERFs. Like what the hell sense does it make. That's what pisses me off, how loud and annoying and well, explicitly male they are. But I'm sure most of them are entirely different outside of the internet.
My male friends are GC, thankfully. But then again I only have like 2-3 friends 😂
It gives them a socially acceptable cover for blatantly hating on women.
this. and honestly I think some of them just have fun being annoying and agressive towards women. They wouldn't be so into trans rights if all women already agreed with it and they just had to fight men.
Definitely. Someone posted a Vice article where they interviewed incels, and one of them said he made tons of anonymous accounts on social media just to troll feminists.
He said he didn't even hate us, he just thought it was really funny and entertaining how quickly he could get a rise out of us.
(Imagine the privilege when riling up people who are denouncing being raped and killed is your daily past time)
...And then these same incels cry and cry and cry, "woe is me!" when not a single woman will give their smelly, hateful, mom's basement-dwelling asses the time of day.
But, whatevs — they get to "totally own" feminists on Twitter! I mean, that's all there is to life, right? Screaming at female strangers on the internet? Fuck actual hobbies, experiences, careers, relationships, and love... Cheetos, RedBull, and an army of equally hateful anonymous male internet strangers are all the friends a guy needs in life! /s
"Just thought it was funny" is part of the typical "playing dumb" defense. It is very common for men to pretend they don't care, pretend they don't understand, pretend they're joking, etc when they do something wrong. It's a tactic to shrug off accountability that they hone over their entire lives.
I don't know. I think some might genuinely be that dumb. Privilege often comes with absence of self awareness.
they wouldn't put in that much time and effort if they just found it amusing. there's a vendetta there.
Good point.
And he also must have zero life to spend so much time on the internet. So pathetic.
Misogyny for woke bros!
Ding ding ding!!
Yes, that too.