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I am also viscerally disturbed. Maybe it’s because I’m aging more noticeably now in my mid-thirties, but I am so grateful to have a healthy body that it doesn’t even actually matter to me if it’s male or female.
If a doctor came up to me tomorrow and told me that my only chance of survival was for my consciousness to be transported and to live in a male body forever, I would be like “OK.” I wouldn’t commit suicide over it, I would be grateful to have a healthy male body instead of no body at all.
And that’s what I don’t get about dysphoria. I’m sex-indifferent. I know I’m female because I AM female. If I had a male’s body I would be male. I would prefer a healthy body of either sex to a pale, pathetic, flaccid facsimile of either sex. Since my female body is healthy and functioning I prefer it, in spite of the setbacks my sex endures. I value my health, wholeness, and wellness.
It makes trans ID people seem very self-absorbed, privileged, and naive to me.
When it’s young women doing this to themselves it seems really clear to me that they haven’t come face-to-face with the reality of human bodies. They may not have had significant health issues yet and spend so much time online that they are disconnected from their bodies.
Even five years ago I felt like I would live forever. I was in amazing shape and had so much energy. Now I am scheduling doctors’ appointments hoping to find out that everything will sustain life for another few decades. Secondary sex characteristics are the last thing on my mind.
Yes, It's a very privileged position. I think that these kids have healthy parents. They do not know what its like to be a caretaker for their ill grandparents. Perhaps they dont have sibling with special needs.
The desire to medicalize oneself is like the desire to be female...if they actually knew what it was like, they wouldnt want it.
It's like with the people who blog about how they're happy at healthy at 500lbs. In their mid-20s it's all "Eff your beauty standards" and which rides they can fit on at Disneyland. By their mid-30s, there's a lot more "Doctors don't know what's wrong with me" posts, and the majority of them sheepishly slink off social media in their 30s.
I think a decent number of T will desist as they age into 30s and 40s for that very reason.
But, I also know that ppl will stay in abusive relationships and remain attached to cults for life. So who knows?
Thank you. Too many defeatist people in the comments willfully misunderstanding what I meant.
I've met young women who could have been the plot of a David Cronenberg movie. Often they seem to be old and young at the same time while neither male nor female. For every Leith Ashley, there are 9 TIFs who land in the uncanny valley.
I have felt guilty for thinking that way, but so often there's a visceral revulsion at seeing a human who has forced themselves into a physical fascmilie of the opposite sex. Our animal instincts tell us we are seeing something unnatural and that it must involve suffering and damage.
Often they seem to be old and young at the same time while neither male nor female.
This describes Ellen Page perfectly. Its so sad and creepy to look at her now
Even TIFs who pass well don't ever really escape the uncanny valley.
I just looked up Leith Ashley... My brain registers her as a "man," but when I look at her face I'm like, "there's something deeply wrong about the way this man looks."
I just looked Laith Ashley up too. It's the eyes, or rather, the lack of male brow ridges, that strikes me.
Yes, thank you! I've always said it's the eyes and brow ridge for me with TiFs.
Sometimes the smile too. It’s not threatening. In Laith’s case though I agree, it’s all in the eyes. Beautiful person in spite of what has been done to her.
Probably nothing a little more plastic surgery won't fix! FMS... Facial Masculination Surgery...
Yeah - I don't clock all TIPs as TIPs, but often I think "This person looks strange". There's a lot of them who are in uncanny valley.
I try to think "if I didnt already know they were the opposite sex, would I look twice at them?"
To me she passes very well, but immediately strikes me as a gay man. I wouldn't have looked at her as say...dating potential. But thats just me.
The thing is, they may pass in pictures but the second you see her in real life and see her standing next to a natal male, the illusion would be shattered.
I think this is very true for many probably, most of them. Though again for me, some of their real-life "offness" strikes me as not entirely different from flamboyantly gay men.
In this video, I actually think Laith looks even more convincing. Her voice is much better than I would have thought. Looks like she skipped leg day, but many men do too. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YNxk--TGVJM&pp=ygUMbGFpdGggYXNobGV5
Here's a photo next to a man: https://medium.com/brian-the-man-behind-the-pen/laith-ashley-shares-his-own-experiences-of-transphobia-and-racism-6af2edcd353a
Perhaps the guy is short for men... But Laith is apparently a successful model, actor, and dancer. She probably can't be too short if she's able to get those roles. And those professions help one to be skilled at mimicry.
Idk if you’ve ever been behind the scenes of publication before. I can tell you confidently that image has been manipulated like crazy on Photoshop and/or other image editing software.
TIPs never “pass” in real life. All of the shiny Photoshopped images of people who took the wrong hormones for their body are ADVERTISEMENTS for pharmaceuticals. And video can be manipulated too. Idk if you’re being willfully naive here but I’ve never heard of this person, so I wouldn’t consider them successful in entertainment.
Yeah that is true that they're advertising things.
I didn't mean to imply that she's a superstar or anything, but I personally don't think Id have clocked her if I didnt know already.
Also, I forgot to put the video link in my earlier post. It's there now.
I think it's the tiny lil head.
yeah, which is why probably as teens it's more believable or seems more appealing - when I was young I liked the idea of being androgynous... I'm not particularly feminine and I don't like gender roles and as a bisexual I always kind of went for an in-between kind of boyish-girl or girlish boy - but as I've gotten older that hasn't remained true. I still understand the aesthetic, but as an adult, a lot of those people look like children now and I'm well aware of physical distinctions.
I still like playfulness & gender bending as an idea - like images of david bowie/ tilda swinton - but I also know that a lot of that is costume & light, and once you get down to reality, bodies, lips, muscles, hair, hands, the size and smell, the texture of skin, - things are different when you're with a man or a woman, whatever their fashion sense, and as you mature it becomes more obvious.
Yes, in the video her head does seem smaller especially in proportion to her shoulders, etc.
In the video, if I hadn't been told she was a TIF, I don't know if I would have noticed.
Physically, like Buck Angel, a lot of the TIFs who get muscular bodies do pass better. Sort of like the Thai ladyboys after a lot of surgery.
But I also thought, as some posters did, that for some reason she seemed to resemble a more "metrosexual" gay man.
I got a thread nuked about this but I stand by what I said.
Most of these girls actually do think they're going to be hot "twinks," "yaoi boys" and boy band members. They don't think they're going to end up looking like George Costanza. That's because they're so young they often haven't developed realistic foresight, and are mentally ill, making them even less able to predict consequences.
The doctors all know this and they're allowing it anyway, for the sake of money.
If these girls wanted to be the "twink" of their dreams, they'd be better off being pin thin runners. Being too thin is not good for you either, but it's hard to keep up with, and is a lot more fixable than what testosterone abuse will do to you. We have women under 25 dropping like flies and developing health problems way early in life that shorten their lives.
I'd want my daughter to be happy with her body and take care of it. But if I had to choose between anorexia and transgenderism, here's the sad fucking thing: a psychologist would actually help me handle her anorexia, but would intentionally subvert me if she wanted testosterone.
The odds of developing anorexia are very low because most people don't really have the ability/self-discipline to make it happen. Meanwhile, testosterone is an addictive substance. So the odds would be in my favor that I could get a daughter to reverse course on anorexia while I'd have to sit back and watch her destroy her body before she realized what she'd done.
I feel so sorry for the mothers of teen girls and young women today. Back when anorexia was at its height, at least you had a team of doctors, school psychologists, counselors, and society at large on your side. Now mothers that do NOT believe in this nonsense lose custody and are cut off.
There are tons of TIFs on TikTok talking about their rare, weird, nightmarish health conditions and not one of them makes the connection that it's the T. The doctors are throwing out every other possible explanation. "Must be genetic."
Yeah, even with a genetic predisposition, that doesn't necessarily mean a factor didn't kick it off. You could be more vulnerable to lung cancer but you won't get it if you don't smoke!
Try telling them that it's the T, and they'll shoot back that "you're not my doctor! And not a doctor at all!!!" and demand that you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's the testosterone. They can't seem to figure out that the doctors are making a profit off of them being sick, only other TIFs such as themselves are getting these mystery conditions, and testosterone is the only unusual thing they are doing.
So these girls and young women really are not connecting the dots, here.
With eating disorders, the doctors never lied to patients about what anorexia could do to them. They're lying with transgenderism, though, because it's more profitable to keep them sick instead of making them well.
I don't know how these healthcare practitioners live with themselves. I really don't.
It makes me feel sick to my stomach. We can all see with our own eyes that it's self-mutilation, but this is the only condition where society is telling girls that it's not.
Try telling them that it's the T, and they'll shoot back that "you're not my doctor! And not a doctor at all!!!" and demand that you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's the testosterone.
Oh, I've read a number of posts from women like this, from all ages but mainly they start to experience some freakish problems in their late 20s and then throughout their 30s, or it's even earlier if they started the cross sex hormones in their teenage years or early 20s.
Some of them have actually said even some of their doctors would hesitantly in a really subtle, as non-"transphobic" way as possible attempt to hint "have you considered maybe you're not responding well to these high doses of testosterone that are not supposed to be in your body" (after they've exhausted all other tests they can possibly do to figure out why these women are so ill even though the elephant is in the fucking room, but they still try to be very kind and careful about questioning the testosterone), but of course those women immediately "fire" the doctors or go on Reddit to complain about it or question other TiFs, many of whom have even told them to report the doctors to the medical boards!!! For daring to suggest such a heinous thing! It's beyond fucking insane.
I have a friend who had severe anorexia and bulimia when we were teenagers...she DID get cured of it, although she has struggled her whole life with mental health issues (it's very genetic, her father's was so severe he lived alone on Medicaid), but has managed them pretty well because she knows she's prone to them (mainly delusions and paranoia) Got an advanced degree, had a good career, raised her son well...and thank goodness the anorexia and bulimia didn't completely destroy her body, which allowed her to give birth to a baby and be really healthy today.
ONE HUNDRED PERCENT if she were a teen today, she'd have gone down the trans pipeline. I agree with you. As awful as her eating disorder was, she came out of it with a lot of therapy and an amazing mother who was never demonized for trying to help her daughter. Trans is like the troll in wait, picking up on the people who have severe mental illness.
It makes me feel sick to my stomach. We can all see with our own eyes that it's self-mutilation, but this is the only condition where society is telling girls that it's not.
Imagine the Wikipedia article about this in the year 2100.
I say this all the time - this shit is so 18th century. Modern people laugh at the old 'cures' like blood-letting to 'get the bad blood out', but will accept that 'this girl has the spirit of a boy trapped inside her, we should make her a fake penis or the boy inside her will go mad and kill the body.'
Yeah, I'm so grateful I was a teen in the mid-2000s and just developed anorexia because I did get to grow out of it and not have any permanent effects.
Some women DO end up with permanent effects, but your odds are so much worse with T.
I was a teen in the late 90's which had the dreaded "Heroin Chic." That was the anorexia peak as a social contagion. But at least there was loud, firm, social pushback. It took forever to make turbo-thin fall out of fashion, but if you went to a psychologist with an anorexic daughter, you'd get actual help. Even with though the mortality rate was 5%, they didn't fuck around. They took it seriously, because what if you were that 5%? Or even if you weren't, what if you did permanent damage to your body?
That's why I'm just blown away by the deliberate destruction of girls' bodies.
Yes. This is the same population of young women in deep psychological distress who, 20 years ago, were anorexic and cutting themselves.
Now, thanks to social media contagion, they are practicing a different form of self-mutilation.
For me, on a personal level, the horror of it really hit home with Mac McClelland's profiling on NY Magazine. Here was an obviously unwell woman on full display (and she has since continued to spiral) and it was utterly gruesome, from her maimed appearance to her story. I could not imagine how anyone was able to celebrate her "journey".
And now with all these girls proudly displaying their self-harm, it's just too much. I don't believe for a second that the majority of them won't deeply regret their choices later in life, but I think we are also underestimating the power of social media on people looking for answers or solutions to their problems.
I always side-eye those who used to chide us (here and on r/GC) for calling it mutilation. That's what it is. Needless mastectomies and carving up limbs to make a fake penis - what the hell else is it?
“I suppose you think braces are mutilation too? Anyway, if they change their minds later, they can always get a boob job or a phalloplasty and go back to how they were before with zero consequences!”
I wish I were exaggerating 🤦♀️
Worst is it was other GC women ie regular posters who disapproved of the word. They knew exactly what those surgeries were but didn't want to upset any TIFs reading. More Be Kind even (or especially ) at the expense of truth. 🙄
I have an issue using "mutilation" not because it may hurt TIPs feelings, but because if is the kind of terminology that almost always will shut down any possible dialogue about why "GAC" is harmful and wrong. Nothing closes a liberals ears faster than using language that sounds "extremist" and provokes a visceral reaction like "mutilation".
When they were cutting and starving themselves at least the medical community didn't applaud it.
"For me, on a personal level, the horror of it really hit home with Mac McClelland's profiling on NY Magazine"
YES! For me too! So awful. Here's a link for those who haven't read it AND are sure that they want to: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/gabriel-mac-essay.html
Reading it was bad enough, and then I discovered Mac McClelland's pre-transition history... WTF: https://4w.pub/ny-mag-runs-article-by-trans-man-who-previously-staged-own-rape/
It was so obvious that this wasn't a "man trapped in a woman's body," it was a DEEPLY messed up and traumatized woman.
Per the second article
She then began seeing a therapist in San Francisco, whom she told that all she wanted to do was have "incredibly violent sex." The therapist suggested it would be a healing experience and told her to find someone who she trusted enough to do it with.
Every brain damaged “kink affirming” therapist like this can go to hell 👍
No coincidence BDSM “culture” is very neurotic about affirming trans identities. I wonder if it’s just all sex addicts and people deeply afflicted by mental illness and trauma in those groups. And these therapists just affirm it.
Saw on a Reddit thread, someone said some“sex therapist” and “sex positive” type certifications for therapists are funded by porn companies.
Yeah, I'm not surprised at all at the constant kink/bdsm stuff shoved into lesbian spaces by transbians. Every time there's a blatant, boring joke/reference/sexual meme, it's always people with the same post history, forcing it into women's spaces and normalizing it.
someone said some“sex therapist” and “sex positive” type certifications for therapists are funded by porn companies.
That's jaw droppingly awful and also very logical. OMFG.
Not to mention one of the biggest “porn neuroscientist/researcher” rubs elbows regularly with porn industry people and threatens on twitter those that point it out. Kind of don’t want to name her so she cannot google this
Yes, and what makes it infinitely worse for me is when I see very young women and especially underaged girls who have had these mutilations performed upon them. I personally know someone whose 15-year-old cousin had a bilateral mastectomy because her parents jumped on the trans train. I've read in horror of stories of girls as young as 12 having these procedures (to any lurkers -- YES, this happens, YES, the "hospitals" and "healthcare workers" that make this happen do reluctantly speak about it if directly presented with this information and go "well, it's not THAT many that have it done that young, but yes they are as young as 12 and it's ok because it's deemed necessary for their dysphoria or whatever". And TRAs do the same -- if you look at the "transkidcisparents" or whatever that subreddit is called, there are many parents in that group as well as others where they openly speak about mutilating their kids with surgeries at young ages).
I've written a few posts about this in the past when I was a bit more active on here, but a couple times I went on Twitter and looked at the "top surgery" tag and 99% of the women were all younger than 24, and a very large amount of them were even teenagers 18-19 years old who have had all the extensive procedures. I've posted also stories of regret and seen some of these women grow older and go "what the fuck did I do, what did I have done to me" and it terrifies me that this will inevitably happen to all of the women or girls who have these atrocities performed on them.
About 2 years ago, or maybe 3 now, there was a video someone shared on here that was absolutely fucking heartbreaking. I still remember the moment I first clicked on it and where I was. It was just... The video is no longer up anymore but is likely archived in the Wayback machine, but it was of this woman who was pretty big into the YouTube trans stuff, and had every single procedure possible done. "Top", "bottom", hormones, the works. She said she had started at like maybe 16-17, and was saying she is 28 (at the time of the recording) and feels like "a virus has taken over, I don't know how I let this happen, I don't know how they were allowed to do this to me, I can never have kids, I can never have my breasts back, I was sexually assaulted when I was young and had so much trauma and no one ever looked into it and just took me down this path I thought was right but I can't go back and I'm so devastated". She was breaking down telling this story and my jaw was dropping, I cried for her and I watched this video multiple times. I rarely cry but this was so painful, I could just hear her raw, unfiltered pain and how devastated she was.
She is in the process of detransitioning still but removed all her trans and other videos (like the one I just mentioned), but my God, I will never forget that fucking video. The way she said she felt like it was a virus that took over her brain and she just woke up one day at 28 and realized "What the actual fuck have I done. What has been done to me. I can't ever go back. I can't ever go back." It was a fucking gut punch.
So many, SO many are either literal children or very young adults, that will not understand the ramification of their actions (or of others' actions upon them) until it is way too late and little to nothing can be done to reverse the damage. Young girls being mutilated left and right, thinking this is so positive and great, and then they wake up from the nightmare but realize they now actually cannot fully awaken from the nightmare.
Lurkers: one minor affected by surgery is ENOUGH to say it is a problem. Period.
It's evil that a doctor would do this. They should have their medical license taken away immediately and permanently.
Who in their right mind doesn't want to be healthy, fit and attractive?
Theyre in a suicide cult. Theyre not in their right minds. I think thats part of the reaction, because they were simply convinced into harming themselves so badly, and its so strange.
It is self annihilation. You have a natural reaction to seeing someone do it to themselves. These are not just cosmetic changes, it indicates a level of self-hatred that is very very hard to witness in girls & women.
It's visceral for me too. And very similar, in terms of the feeling of mixed pity and revulsion, to how I feel when I see a woman who is obviously suffering from anorexia. Their bodies are just WRONG, their bodies are the outward manifestation of unspoken suffering and chronic self-destruction. They're walking pictures of pain.
And if anything, the feeling is worse when I'm looking at a TIF, because at least an anorexic can recover. Like, it's physically possible for her to work through things, start eating again, and become healthy.
But when I can tell from a woman's facial hair and her voice that she's been on testosterone long enough for its effects to be irreversible... there's almost no hope there. The effects I can see and hear are with her for life, and there's a high chance she'll never have children, and a much higher than usual chance that she'll develop uterine cancer. It's so depressing.
You have some great points, but I just want to point out that anorexia does cause serious, lifelong health problems, especially for cardiac health and bones.
Karen Carpenter is the most well known case of a person dying of anorexia. She was getting better towards the end of her life. But, sadly, the damage was already done by the time she finally got help
That still makes me sad. One of the most talented musicians in recent history. Died young all because some scrote called her "fat" and she internalized it
It seems even worse for TIFs. Approximately 5% of anorexic women die within 4 years of diagnosis. But TIFs die of mysterious things that the doctors don't attribute to T.
Even if an anorexic girl dies of a heart attack, everyone knows it was the anorexia that led up to it. No one says "it wasn't the anorexia; it was a heart attack!"
But when a TIF dies, the doctors blame the exact circumstance and stay silent on the cause.
I know an of anorexic woman who "recovered" and then literally dropped dead of a heart attack at 26.
Same. I never had a problem with seeing pictures of breast cancer survivors and their scars (one feminist magazine had a photo of a woman who had opted out of "reconstruction" implants and instead just had some flowers tattooed on her scars.)
But TIF breast amputations are horrible to me. It's ... well, it is self-harm on an extreme level. It just creeps me out.
The difference between a breast cancer mastectomy and a TIF mastectomy is that one is a legit medical procedure with a reason behind it and one is just self-harm... plus, a lot of TIFs have botched mastectomies with painful-looking scars because of the quacks that perform them.
There's a big problem for women that go through surgery for breast cancer, either mastectomy or lumpectomy, where the surgeon just makes a mess of it. It isn't done by plastic surgeons, after all. They might do a great job of removing cancerous tissue, but that's their main concern and it shows. I know my wife is still self conscious of her wonky post-lumpectomy breast. I see it as a badge of courage.
I recently had a still benign tumor removed that's hard to fully remove because of location and spawns dozens of tiny tumors if you mess up. The analysis of the removed tissue came back as fully removed while not damaging important nerves.
An older friend had exactly the same thing long ago done by a plastic surgeon and told me "Oh, that's a tumor that always comes back, I had it done three times."
There's a big problem for women that go through surgery for breast cancer, either mastectomy or lumpectomy, where the surgeon just makes a mess of it. It isn't done by plastic surgeons, after all.
Idk, the TIFs seem have to have horrible outcomes, too, and they presumably get it done by plastic surgeons.
Actual cancer specialists may only care about getting the cancer out, but the butchers who happily remove healthy breast tissue probably just don't want to invest the effort. (And the TIFs are proud of their mastectomy scars, even though those scars ensure they will never pass, so there is that.)
I've seen that woman with the tattoos! That was a lovely choice on her part.
You're right. It's the self harm. I don't feel the same way about physical changes people go through because of illness. It's that they've chosen to do this to themselves. There is something very, very creepy about it.
"Who in their right mind doesn't want to be healthy, fit and attractive?"
Women who aren't. Women who think they're fat, ugly and will never measure up to society's standards of being fit and attractive. It's easier to not be a woman than to try to become "fit" and attractive.
I have spoken with some very young TIFs who have a delusion that they will become more fit and attractive if they transition. They know that athletes cheat with testosterone, and that it gives you more energy. So they think that suddenly they'll shape up if they take it, because they don't really understand the science of it. Athletes are doing numerous things to achieve their abilities, and when they cheat, they're taking as little as possible to dodge doping tests. These girls don't understand the concept of diminishing returns.
One girl told me that she'd heal from her karate injuries faster if she were a boy. I tried to explain to her that no, females heal from injuries faster than males do. She didn't believe me and insisted that that didn't make sense, since boys were fighters and athletes. As if surviving childbirth doesn't require a highly sophisticated system.
Well, she'll heal faster on testosterone than off of it. That is one reason athletes, male and female, take it.
Women heal faster than men as a rule. Men might heal faster in specific sports injuries because they have more muscle mass. But that's not a given. If a man and a woman pull the same muscle, the woman usually heals faster.
There's also diminishing returns. It's one thing to take a smidge of testosterone- which is still not good for you- but another to bombard your body with it. When your system is overloaded, it's not going to work efficiently.
You find papers that say that women heal faster than men (or vice versa), and also papers that say testosterone makes you heal faster
It's possible that women heal faster for reasons unrelated to testosterone for some things but testosterone can improve it even more (in some areas, others make it worse), but that would require staring at a lot of studies for me to figure out if this is actually true
I'm not talking about men vs. women in terms of healing faster. Both men and women who take exogenous testosterone will heal faster. That is why male and female athletes will take testosterone. It shortens recovery times. It has long term consequences, but I don't think there is any real medical debate that testosterone shortens recovery time.
Can vary a lot with circumstances, age etc. I've never been attractive, never been particularly fit, either, but fortunately I have never met anyone whose sexual interest I'd want, so it didn't matter.
What type of attitude is that?
One women who have trauma or depression might have? Or maybe a realistic one? I look at Chaz Bono and wonder if she looked at Cher, decided she would never measure up, and opted out.
I know women who have gotten "fit" and seen it overtake their entire lives, workouts became more important than their kids activities, family time disappeared because they had to get up at 4 am to get to the gym, before work so they'd be in bed so early, they spent no time with their kids or spouse. Training for the next 10k or marathon, supporting other people on their "fitness journey", became all encompassing. The fear of getting fat again if they slipped a little was what drove everything.
If you're not one of those people for whom being "fit and attractive" comes somewhat naturally, it is not necessarily something people aspire to.
One women who have trauma or depression might have?
Well, refer back to the section of the OP that you quoted: who in their right mind? As for people like Chaz, I can understand the motivation but the "solution" she chose is not one arrived at by someone with a sound mind.
family time disappeared because they had to get up at 4 am to get to the gym
They used to have family time exclusively before sunrise? For most people, there is always a way to find time to work out; maybe not every day, but that's okay, because general fitness doesn't require that. And true exercise addiction is actually pretty rare - the reason for that is addressed in this interview, if anyone is interested. You make it sound like a commitment to fitness typically requires or results in obsession, and that's just not true.
You missed the go to bed so early part. When you have older kids and you're in bed by 8/9:00 and your kids have games and practices after school, and you're doing extra training for your next marathon, you're not spending much time with your spouse and kids.
If you've ever been seriously overweight and got "fit" what I described is what it takes to maintain it. Look at The Biggest Loser, the people who managed to maintain their weight loss made fitness their lives. The winner one year sold the family business and became a coach/motivational speaker because he could not maintain his weight loss with the time demands of running a brick and mortar business. There is a reason people can't maintain significant weight loss for more than 1 or 2 years. You are either living with such a low calorie intake or you're working out at least an hour a day, every day, for some people it is both. I know multiple women who could not maintain their weight loss, and neither was model thin, without daily workouts in excess of an hour, and one I know stayed on a strict 900 calorie diet on top of daily work outs. So either you're "addicted" to exercise or you regain the weight. There is no "general fitness" if you've ever lost significant weight.
That's why I said for people for whom fitness comes somewhat naturally. I know people who can maintain a relatively healthy weight without watching every calorie or ever working out, or maybe they go to the gym or for a run a few times a week. But not everyone is like that. There are people who don't want to spend their lives on the yoyo of losing and regaining weight because they can't maintain it without it becoming the focus of their lives. It's not "dopamine addiction" it's their metabolism.
Yes. Also GenX. I've had major surgery (old school open-heart valve repair) that took years to rehab, even though I was very active -- rib head rotation, costochondritis, limited thoracic mobility, all typical side-effects.
When I read about these "affirmation" surgeries I absolutely have a visceral reaction. I can't believe they're opting into (being utterly misled into?) so much needless pain and dysfunction.
Did your costochondritis ever go away? Been struggling with it myself for quite a while now.
So yes, it eventually did, but two things really helped. First I had to ditch regular stretching and gradually help everything reset with gentle supported yoga (with props and lots of very gentle chest-opening and twist poses). It took time, but I did gradually regain full range of motion with pain relief. I also had an osteopathic manipulation that "unstuck" some of my upper ribs (there were probably adhesions).
The second thing that really helped, though it came years later, was a hypermobility diagnosis. This helped me understand why gentle yoga worked but regular PT and exercise made it worse, if that makes sense.
ETA feel free to msg me if you want more deets.
Thank you so much for your answer. My mother has hypermobility, maybe I do too.
If I may ask, how long did it take to go away?
The costochondritis and lack of torso mobility were kind of all bundled together, and it took a couple of years of gentle steady yoga (and the rib treatment) to go away completely, but progress was pretty steady. I forgot to mention that deep, steady breathing was also part of the yoga, the kind of diaphragmatic breathing that gently expands the intercostal tissue all along the front, back, and sides, all around the ribcage.
I think it also depends on what the cause is (there can be more than one) -- mine was invasive surgery and undiagnosed hypermobility. But so much can irritate the intercostals -- injury, overuse, hyperventilating, infection, heavy coughing, scoliosis, rib subluxation, "sleeping wrong," there are just so many factors in play there.
Who in their right mind doesn't want to be healthy, fit and attractive?
Sadly, a lot of people who don't fit current beauty standards (and likely never will due to genetics, illness, food addiction, etc) have found a community in "queer" spaces. "Queer" dogma encourages its followers to make themselves as off-putting as possible as an act of rebellion against the evil cis-het White normies who made fun of them in high school
That's messed up. I used to work with people of all shapes and sizes and all women are beautiful in their own way if they are invested in health and well being, both mental and physical. We are all dealt a certain hand in life and we do the best we can with what we have. Beauty standards are constantly changing but taking care of yourself the best you can brings benefits in so many different ways. This is truly one of the most evil, dysfunctional things that has ever happened.
"all women are beautiful in their own way if they are invested in health and well being"
So women who aren't invested in your idea of wellbeing aren't beautiful? You can't see your own biases. You have 2 fat women of the same size and weight, one works out and is "invested in health and well being" and she's more beautiful than the other?
Everyone can work to be the healthiest they possibly can, both mentally and physically, and yes, people who value this versus those who are intent on living in unhealthy ways are infinitely more attractive on many levels.
Seems to me they have no idea, or actively deny, the extreme harm exogenous testosterone will do to them. And of course this rabidly misogynistic movement wants them ignorant. There's no money to be made from women saying "Nope, it's not worth it."
Whenever anyone tries to talk about the harms of testosterone, they get one of these responses...
But if they don't get T, they'll kill themselves!! So what if they end up dying by age 40? Isn't that better than committing suicide at age 16?
Testosterone just brings them up to normal male risk of heart disease and blood clots. So its okay.
They have a man brain. So they NEED testosterone to function! That's SCIENCE!!!
Yes, the wilful stupidity is off the planet.
I also wonder if the men running all this aren't slavering over young women harming themselves this way. And of course it's TIFs who die young from these "treatments" (which TRAs pretend is dying from tRaNsPhObia) and provide the cult with its martyrs.
Is number 2 true?
As far as I know, no. Women's blood vessels are more delicate than men's, so the women on male levels of testosterone actually get higher risks than men.
I mean. Men have evovlved for thousands of years to live with such high levels of testosterone (although theirs are lowered by fatherhood, alcohol, music, and a dozen other things, while a TIF can always inject the same dose. Now, if TIFs were clever, they'd only take as much as the men with the lowest testosterone have, just enough to grow a beard, and then stop it, but ... yeah well, they think they can be men, of course they aren't clever.)
The trouble with just enough testosterone to grow a beard, is that that is still a fuckton of testosterone.
Men still live, on average, shorter lives than women because evolution is a tinkerer, not an engineer. If a man survives long enough to reproduce offspring that also reproduce, evolution doesn't correct anything.
Men are still more prone to heart attacks and other problems related to testosterone.
I think trauma is a big part of it. Trauma is exhausting. And being female in a patriarchal world is fairly traumatic without an incredible support system.
Who in their right mind doesn't want to be healthy, fit and attractive?
Well, I’m definitely the type that would have transed if it had existed when I was younger (I’m grateful every day that it didn’t). So I know from firsthand experience that many people actually don’t know how to be “healthy, fit and attractive” and the constant pressure to look good was intense even in the grunge era; it’s grown by orders of magnitude since then. It’s actually very time consuming and often expensive to eat well, work out, and put on makeup, and learn how to do hair, and constantly check yourself in a mirror. I didn’t see the point of it when I was a teenager, frankly. I wanted to read books and travel and spend my money and time on other things. Even when I came to develop a sense of appreciation for physical health, the emphasis on attractiveness was weird to me, and makeup and other things like that have always felt really fake and performative. So when we tell girls that these are the things that define womanhood, of course they’re going to think, “Well, I don’t understand that or want to do any of that, so I must not be a woman.”
Add in trauma, either at an individual or a societal level (I have been shocked to see how many of my liberal friends have been telling their kids that now that Trump is in charge, there are going to be concentration camps - I’m not saying Trump isn’t capable of atrocities, but that my friends seem to derive great pleasure from scaring their kids and then using their kids’ fear as political ballast - so I know that the parents of now transitioning kids probably did the same in 2016), and unfettered access to social media and Reddit and manipulative narcissistic personalities, plus a decimated sense of local community, and a media that pushes trans as something wonderful, and captured school districts, therapists, and social workers, and you have a recipe for utter disaster.
I am shocked by the grown, older women who are transitioning, but these younger kids never stood a chance. The entire system has failed them.
I have been shocked to see how many of my liberal friends have been telling their kids that now that Trump is in charge, there are going to be concentration camps - I’m not saying Trump isn’t capable of atrocities, but that my friends seem to derive great pleasure from scaring their kids and then using their kids’ fear as political ballast - so I know that the parents of now transitioning kids probably did the same in 2016
Not to get totally off topic, but they are sending the undocumented people they’re rounding up to Gitmo. Or at least the administration has told Gitmo to prepare for a significant influx of people. I would say that rounding up a group of people and putting them in a prison for political reasons is a concentration camp. Not that parents should be telling kids that. But as a middle school teacher, I’m hearing way too many jokes and casual remarks about ICE for my comfort.
I would say that rounding up a group of people and putting them in a prison for political reasons is a concentration camp.
No. It very much isn't.
"Concentration camp" implies that the people are killed. Intentionally. Large-scale.
It's not in the name because the nazis wanted to hide it, but nowadays, everyone knows what a concentration camp is, and this isn't it.
Telling your children who learnt about the nazis in school that Trump is going to send illegal immigrants to "concentration camps" is dishonest. (And also needlessly scaring them.)
I miss teaching so much but I am grateful to not be doing it now. I spent a lot of time comforting scared students the first time around. Some of them handle it with dark humor. I get that, but I had to remind them that not everyone responds well to that coping mechanism.
Girls and young women have always responded to trauma, sexual abuse, psychological distress by mortifying their bodies. Think religious manias through history, anorexia, cutting etc. Apparently it's a way to feel in control.
The TIFs make their body mortification a lifetime project, something to fixate on. They get a lot of 'positive reinforcement' through their cheer squads and 'allies', especially online.
Yes and no.
I find the desire to escape femaleness perfectly understandable.
The actual mechanics of these doomed attempts are pretty gross though.
Exactly the same for me. Once I realized how the world treats women (and we always realize it as little girls, especially way more so when we start developing a little bit), it is like a kick to the head. Who wouldn't want to escape a society that treats us as disposable objects with no thoughts, no consciousness?
But there really isn't any; you can't become a man, or a "sexless genderless alien" or whatever, just because you get an unnecessary bilateral mastectomy and/or leg or arm sausage tube, and/or roided up. It's all disgusting and deeply depressing.
Yep. There is no escape.
Society makes it suck mightily, but so does nature. Periods, pregnancy, childbirth, menopause. Very few ppl would actually choose these things if there were other options.
But there are no other options. The mutilations just bring on menopause sooner.
I was friends with a girl who identified as trans (wanted to be a guy). She told me the reason she's not a girl is because she hates her boobs in the same way that if you have excess belly fat you don't want it there and you hate your body. We were 14 years old. I hope she's ok now.
They often look so profoundly unhealthy, it's hard to put into words what it is exactly, it's not even the mastectomies that's not the worst to me, it's the testosterone. They come across as though they're ravaged by a very destructive, aggressive disease, with that voice, the thin-looking skin, how some of them look so red in the face. It's the systemic impact for me.
What really viscerally affects me is the vaginectomy. While it’s not necessary for either phalloplasty or metoidioplasty, some opt for it if the existence of the canal makes them “dysphoric”.
It’s performed by inserting a metal probe inside the vagina, which heats up and burns away/evaporates the mucosa. The removal of the mucosa allows the canal to heal closed. Recovery from the procedure is apparently excruciatingly painful, and the pain level remains high for months.
You've gotta remember not everyone likes their feminine features. If you're not fond of the idea of having children, dealing with beauty standards or getting sexual attention, it's difficult to find benefits. I myself avoid exercise because when I do it too much, it increases my curves which leads to more catcalling and worse-fitting clothes!
I'm desisted, myself. But that doesn't mean I'm suddenly happy and comfortable with my body.
Knowing is half the battle: Put yourself in another's shoes, and you'll see how to convince them to stop hurting themselves. Denying the idea that any woman could want to be rid of their secondary sexual characteristics only validates their madness.
What helped me get out wasn't telling me that I'm wrong or disgusting, it was showing me reality and that transition is much, much worse (not to mention an illusion) than simply living with the discomfort and putting my efforts elsewhere (like feminism and medicine) to make life more bearable in spite of it.
This is very true. I have always -- I hesitate to say "absolutely hated" -- but I have not liked my own body, despite getting attention from it from a very young age. I feel also in a way that I am just completely indifferent to my female characteristics. If you put my brain into a male, I would just operate in that body and probably just feel the exact same feelings. I don't feel connected to my chest or hips or reproductive organs (I am only very much reminded of them when I have what are usually painful and sensory nightmare periods) or whatever else. I don't have children and am willfully celibate.
I was abused for being female. I developed incredibly young thanks to genetics, and had/have a large chest on a thin frame, and was not only bullied relentlessly already because I was autistic and did not have friends, I also started to get sexual attention from men who were many times over my age and it made me want to shrivel up and die. I would cry about why I had such a body. I have never "felt" at home in my body even as an adult, but I don't think anyone really does. Maybe some do. I don't. Never have. And having multiple disabilities on top of it all makes you stand out like a sore thumb.
With all that said, I know there is no way "out" of these characteristics (besides the obvious "have extensive cosmetic surgeries"). I try to do some of what you say too -- to just accept it and put my energy into other things. But it's still hard.
It bothers me greatly when I see young women getting mastectomies and even just binding.
I am old enough that I have numerous friends who had breast cancer. Their surgeries were brutal but necessary. Others with various gynecological problems and hysterectomies. Removing diseased body parts is one thing, but removing perfectly healthy body parts is just crazy.
The goal with the medically necessary surgeries is to regain health, not destroy it.
I feel revulsion, anger, and terrible sadness that they're destroying the only bodies they will ever have chasing a fantasy that can never become reality.
Yes. Because it’s too sad what has happened to lesbians but it’s something that I never expected to see. Almost feels as though my lesbian peers have literally been through a war zone and they all have battle injuries
As someone who lives with a TIF it does disturb me that I couldnt help her and that I never stopped her but I was only a teen who was told to never say anything I really think it was the severe bullying and thinking she could leave her old self behind and becoming a "strong man" would mean never feeling weak again. It is painful to see the scars thinking in another life that could have been me.
Yes, the cutting off of organs is always sad, whatever the cause. A mastectomy for breast cancer is still sad though necessary.
And I can sympathise with someone trying to get natal organs restored eg after cancer or FGM, which can only be done cosmetically in most cases, you can't restore function.
But the creation of fake genitals is just viscerally awful and disturbing. Creating an orifice in a biological male or trying to fashion a phallus in a biological female is just the stuff of horror. It's Mengele level. I think the reason that people claim to be satisfied with the outcome is because they are so incredibly psychologically unwell in the first place that they don't have rational judgment.
So I can accept they may be technically "happier" with it and not regret it. And I think if a grown legal adult can find a surgeon willing to carry it out then they should be permitted to have that surgery if they can pay for it.
On minors, never. On public health systems, never.
Why have we accepted that a self mutilating adult is somehow less mentally unfit to make that decision for themselves than a minor? Are adults with Body Integrity Identity Disorder not deserving of proper medical care?
As someone who really hated my breasts and fantasized about cutting them off, I was surprised to find out about all the women doing it when I first got into this stuff several years ago. Their results do freak me out and what testostone does is scary, but I have a deep sympathy with the girls and women who get a mastectomy, it also helped me accept my body more.
They aren't in their right mind, basically, most of them are dealing with heavy mental health issues and have been sold the lie they can fix their pain and problems with this. It's a community, it's a solution, it's a goal and a distraction for them.
Absolutely… I just want to shake them and say “yes, certain things suck about being a woman, but this isn’t the way”. And they turn into short ugly men. The height issue alone is just absurd, there’s zero foresight into the implications, it’s so frustrating. I guess I’m a femcel, but I always viewed looks as just a means to an end, not a legitimate expression of my soul. I min-max my appearance to get what I want from people. Transing is maximizing effort to look less attractive to most people. I guess that’s the appeal if you’ve experienced trauma? But that’s where the medical community has failed so spectacularly. It’s obvious self harm, and doctors shouldn’t have led them down the garden path.
Yes. VERY YES.
The Uncanny Valley is real. And they're sentenced to life.
I just saw a TiF's surgery where she got mock testicles implanted.... as a woman w male attraction (yuck) I have seen a good handful of scrotums. They don't look anything like her implants.
I know it is very selfish, but the first thing I usually think when i see them is "I am so glad I did not have Tumblr when I was an angsty, looking-for-connections and very gender non confirming teenager".
I would have completely fallen in the trap. But thankfully, I was able to make not-forever mistakes and learn about how society makes girls and women hate themselves
Who in their right mind doesn't want to be healthy, fit and attractive?
I think you vastly underestimate how different people's priorities can be. There are plenty of people who don't care about being attractive. Generally a majority people over about 40 know that they physically can't match mainstream beauty standards, and they don't really care. It's something that just happens to you as you grow up. A desire to be attractive is mostly prevalent in very young people, and even then, not all of them. Some people have always had their perception of themselves based on something other than their looks.
As a separate issue, I hate seeing how ill TIFs look. I can deal with the scars, those just don't horrify me particularly, for whatever reason. Obviously that they've had the surgeries is horrific, but seeing the scars isn't visceral for me. I have scars, they're just a thing. What horrifies me on a visceral level is the sickness they have from the T. For example, Gruffin, who died at the age of 24 after several years of blood clots and strokes. She looks so ill in her last videos, that it does hit me in the uncanny valley. Finn the youtuber is like this as well.
Most people who prioritize health and wellness are attractive on many levels. The attitude you describe is baffling to me. Being attractive has nothing to do with conforming to popular beauty standards.
But the term "attractive" does mean conforming to the beauty standards (for men or women) of that era. In everyday speech, that is what people use it as.
No it doesn't. Different people find different things attractive. What seems to be universally attractive is someone with a positive attitude towards their own health and well being, both physical and mental. I cannot believe I'm having this discussion.
Unfortunately "attractive" is used to mean "good looking" or "sexually attractive". People can be fit and healthy and ever be either of those things.
The attitude you're describing is baffling to me as well.
Prioritizing health and wellness is baffling to you?
No, I very much said that prioritising attractiveness was not as common as you seem to think it is. I deliberately separated it from health. I happen to be a former model, and I do think about how I look - however, I talk to and understand people who don't consider whether they are attractive, and it's baffling to me that you haven't come across this.
(I'm actually seriously chronically ill, so I have no choice but to be ill, and to focus on my health. It's really shitty for me when people roll being healthy into being attractive, because they are very, very different beasts to someone who has been seriously ill and CRAVES being at least ok-ish in health and knows that being attractive isn't actually worth anything when your prioritise mature. But you have already written off anyone who disagrees with you as not in their right mind.)
Yesterday I was out with a good friend of mine who lets her facial hair grow out. She doesn't identify as a man, she just lets her beard grow. Whatever. We were with another friend who never dresses 'up', only ever wears plain t shirt and jeans, only ever gets a pudding bowl hair cut. I have lots of friends like this. Most people aren't that invested in looking their absolute best. They get to a level they can live with.
I cringe hard from hearing about breast amputation. I have a horrifying image of mine getting cut off in the crudest way.
This has baffled me as well. I find the permanent destruction of their voices especially sad. I once was around a NB woman on testosterone and a TIF. Their frog-like voices sounded the exact same; if I wasn't looking at them I wouldn't be able to tell who was speaking. It felt so dystopian.
Honestly, the transformation and mutilation has inspired me to start writing a short horror story.
Idk if it will ever be complete, but it inspired
Me.
E
Who in their right mind doesn’t want to be healthy, fit, and attractive?
Isn’t this kind of the problem, though? At least in my experience, “healthy” is usually a word that actually means “makes penis happy” when applied to women. (It’s why you get endless concern trolling about “health” when someone is overweight—it’s obviously disingenuous, but it gives the “concerned” a cover to vent their hatred of fat people.)
I am not sure where you’re from, but in the UK “fit” means “good-looking.” In the US it can be another way to concern troll about attractiveness.
And “attractive” speaks for itself.
please read this: I am not trying to put words in your mouth and say this is what YOU meant. I believe you are actually concerned about her health, literally, as you should be given the effects of “treatment” for TIFfery. But I’m saying that a TIF reading this post as written would see it as more reason to dig in her heels.
All women are tired of being told that our bodies are for the consumption of others, usually men, but women have very strong opinions and can be very entitled about other women’s bodies, too. TIFs take that exhaustion and try to make it stop and inhabit bodies that are just for them. They shouldn’t have to mutilate themselves to that end.
I think if we are more careful with our language, making sure to never focus on anything to do with how “attractive” someone is, and keeping the criticisms of it to specific, discrete, and measurable genuine health concerns (rather than a generalized concern for “health”), we can help create a more compassionate world where women at the extreme ends of misogyny dont feel that trans is their easiest way out.
Because it’s not easy! Women who put their bodies through trans medicine must be suffering tremendously to think that is their best option. Even in the cheery, overly optimistic trans echo chambers, they typically acknowledge that transition can be expensive and time-consuming. I think carving out an alternative path to peace could really make a difference.
When I say fit I mean physical fitness as in able to physically function to the best of your ability. Nowhere did I mention conforming to current beauty trends or standards.
Making health a priority and taking care of your body is basic level humaning.
Well, I understand it. Many women don't want to be attractive for obvious reasons. But personally, I find the "get obese to make men less interested" route the more logical choice.
People who think that way are mentally ill. That is not a healthy coping mechanism.
Are you missing the point that "attractive" automatically means "sexually attractive" in this context? Because there is nothing remotely like mental illness in not wanting men to find one sexually attractive, given their attitudes and behaviour. It's trying to escape the attentions of predators.
Trying to become obese or extremely thin to avoid it, and trying to change sex (impossible) are signs of mental illness, there's no question about that. But not wanting to draw sexual attention is neither ill nor rare.
No. You are intentionally misinterpreting what I wrote.
I'm trying to understand what you wrote. I asked elsewhere in the thread what you mean by "attractive". Could you explain it, please? Because in common usage there's always the implication at least that it means sexually attractive.
You don't understand what the word attractive means? You are incorrect that there is always the implication this means sexually attractive.
If I specifically meant sexually attractive that's what I would have said.
Generally self destructive intentionally unhealthy people are not appealing to be around. Hope that helps.
Why are you being like this?
I'm not "being like" anything. If you mean attractive energy or personality, it would help to say so. Physically attractive is a different thing and carries the implication of sexually attractive in normal conversations. If someone says "so-and-so is really attractive" and someone else says "Not my type" or "You think so?", it's pretty obvious they're talking about sexual attraction.
I'm not disputing for a moment that self destructive, unhealthy people aren't appealing to be around.
The mastectomies are horrific, but even more so are the forearms that have been stripped of skin to create a fake penis. How can ANYONE do that to themselves? How can any DOCTOR do that to a patient? How can anyone think this is okay -- EVER??? 😭
It'd be horrific even if the "penis" worked, but it doesn't!
Not only do they not work, but the complication rates are off the charts.
Yes, nothing like having a gangrenous tube attached to you.
And the way they proudly show off those monstrosities... There is one on Reddit that has something that looks like a giant potato was sewed to her vulva and it's horrifying. The commenters always tell her how manly and handsome she looks! It's like I am living in an alternate reality.
“It's like I am living in an alternate reality.”
We are.
Bloody hell.
Yes. I looked at a photo of a botched phalloplasty result on Reddit yesterday and actually cried. It looked like a pile of raw meat.