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What some people don't seem to understand is that if you've grown up in certain parts of the United States, you do not see "guys" as a gendered word in the first place, so how can you be erasing women by using it? To us, it is simply a word for a group of human beings, regardless of sex.
That’s interesting.
So, in conversation with someone, when you’re referring to a woman, you would call her a “guy”?
I’ve lived a long time andknown people from all over the US, and cannot recall a single instance of anyone doing this.
Exactly. I can call a group of little girls "guys." :).
And some groups of little girls are not liking it... : https://ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/481702/little-girls-are-protesting-against-sexist-androcentric-language-in-their-school
Uhhh... that article is an appalling description of ideological indoctrination of children. Anyone holding it up as a positive example should be given serious side-eye.
(emphasis mine) "pupils urged to protest against ‘sexist’ language"
Children at a state primary school have been taught to hold up posters rejecting the use of “sexist” language by teachers
The training starts in the nursery with children as young as three.
Pupils who challenge sexist language, ..., are rewarded with a certificate. Children also monitor their reading books and worksheets for sexist stereotypes. Two certificates are handed out in each class weekly to pupils who come up with the most telling examples.
Sarah Hewitt-Clarkson, the head teacher, said: “The phrase ‘Good morning boys and girls’ is not used in this school. Instead all teachers say, ‘Good morning everyone’.
"Don't say boys and girls" comes straight out of the transing playbook.
Are they getting enough pushback (finally) that they're disingenuously miscasting the same ultimate agenda as "anti-sexism," when it's really just the same anti-reality-of-sex trash? This makes it sound like it.
For me, "you guys" is our second-person plural form of address. It's never caused any problems, and I think it's a bit much to make a big thing out of it.
If I say "i saw a guy walking down the street who..." everyone knows that it means I saw a man, or possibly an older adolescent male. No problem.
If I say to my sisters, "Where do you guys want to go for lunch?" -- also no problem. Because it's "you guys." Just a plural "you." In other contexts, it means men. Except that sometimes I'll refer to objects being dealt with, moved sorted, etc., as this "these guys over here" or "those guys over there." It's just a little quirk, and again, creates no problems.
I love Alice very much, and her work has done good in the world. But there have been times, as she's gotten older (like all of us), when she'll bring emotion and thinking or analysis together in ways that are a real stretch, and really don't make sense, or aren't real. I'm sorry that I'm tired now, it's bedtime, and I can no longer recall what exactly I saw her say, or get into, that flagged her in my brain as no longer necessarily reliable. Actually I think now it had to do with a British anti-Semitic conspiracy theorist, like, big complex global conspiracy, possibly even the lizard people thing...Oh yeah, it's this guy.
https://www.vox.com/culture/2018/12/20/18146628/alice-walker-david-icke-anti-semitic-new-york-times
So I bless her and appreciate what she's done, but I also step back a bit on some of her views.
People use " guys " to refer to women even outside of " you guys " like " hey guys " " what's up guys? " etc...
Women complaining about this is nothing new and goes back more than 20 years way before transgender ideology took off... : https://web.archive.org/web/20210416163841/https://dl1.cuni.cz/pluginfile.php/1097824/mod_resource/content/1/Kleinman_You_guys.pdf
Why do something that makes some women uncomfortable when there are alternatives that make no women uncomfortable? I don't get it...
There are women who may not complain about it even if they are uncomfortable due to anxiety like fear of dismissal like being accused of being too sensitive etc...
I rarely complain about it to my friends because I do not want to make them uncomfortable but I hate it for example...
It is clearly something that makes a significant amount of women uncomfortable for women like Alice Walker to make videos about it, write essays about it, even make pins about it... : https://x.com/FunAndDraconian Here is another video of a woman who dislikes it : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7Dbs55pKRI
Even some Christian groups have started protesting against Androcentric Language : https://eewc.com/god-not-guy-neither/ & : http://thegirlgod.blogspot.com/2013/06/sexist-language-matters-heres-why.html
"Hey guys" and "what's up, guys?" are the same use that I'm talking about in "what do you guys think?" That's the same sense of "guys."
Our culture is just rife with real androcentrism that needs addressing -- this just isn't a big thing. There is a tendency in this era to focus on the minutiae of speech and push things there because we've sort of given up on pushing actual social change, which feels impossible. Doing this feels like accomplishing something real when it isn't. Language policing is the low-hanging fruit of social change. And going for it presses people to self-regulate and limit their own speech that is not unreasonable or hateful or bad -- just might not be comfortable for someone somewhere.
And, while it's important to be a well-behaved person, the logic of "Some women somewhere may feel uncomfortable with something, so no one should ever say it" is exactly the logic that says the whatever percent of the population who are trans should be able to make everyone else watch their language and speak in ways that won't offend them, to modify our behavior in order to take care of them and their feelings, even when we aren't speaking to them and are just doing our lives. It is the same thing applied in a different context.
I'm not saying we should be jerks; I'm saying that every human being has to do a certain amount of dealing with things we run into, out in the world, that are less than comfortable for us. Every one of us. Every single day. I would even say, especially women. I deal with it every day. I self-manage my reactions. It's part of life.
And our willingness to bend over backward in our everyday lives to try to caretake everyone's feelings -- or at least the feelings of specific sectors of society -- has led to the dysfunctional society we have now, including the trans problem and the can't-really-talk-about-any-social-issue problem.
One thing patriarchy does is influence women to be excessively other-directed, which men are not subject to. This one seems like some of that to me.
It's also true that, when I use "guys" the way I do, I'm always doing it in real life, not on the internet (where anyone could see and theoretically be uncomfortable with it). Just as not honoring the pronoun thing or other trans language policing initiatives, when I'm talking with people I know in person, isn't going to offend anyone else, because it's not on the internet, they're not going to see it. And honestly, we all get to live our own lives and make our own choices. Even women! 😀
I tend to agree with this.
And I'll add - I've tried, but it always feels a little bit sexist to use a female specific word when the "you guys" I'm talking to are all women... Like, why am I singling them out for their sex?? It's kind of like saying "women" instead of "people" when sex isn't relevant to the matter at hand... women are people too, you know, there's no need to other them from half the population. I used to prefer "pregnant people" for this very reason.
But I suppose this is all because it is very much ingrained in my thinking that 'guys' is neutral when used in the second person (or when referring to objects) and male is the default human.
I guess I will just say "you people" from now on and see how that goes. :P
I agree with her in a linguistic sense - "Guys" is an erasure of women at its root, and the programming she mentions is the historical pattern of language usage. Where I'm from, originally, "guys" is used in a gender neutral way - but it doesn't exclude the root of erasing femininity from a group. Is the use of it a pressing issue? No, not really. Do I still see more misogyny coming from those - both on the left and right - that use "y'all"? Yes. But is Alice wrong? No.
I personally leverage "you" as a collective term, or go with a generic "everyone", but I understand how language usage is ingrained.
People who use " y'all " are misogynistic?
The vast majority of TRA's I've encountered use "y'all".
I think people who are dismissive of women who dislike being called masculine words like " guys " " dude " " man " " bro " etc are way more likely to be misogynistic... I mean just look at the comment section of this video here... : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7Dbs55pKRI
I found some real gems there like this : https://ovarit.com/o/TransLogic/92124/fake-enby-genders-are-allowed-to-be-bothered-by-androcentric-language-but-biolog
When referring to a group of women, I've only ever heard people say gals, never guys. Guys always reads male to me. "I'm having drinks with the guys" vs "I'm having drinks with the gals." If someone asks a man how many guys he's dated, no man would think the question refers to "women" or "people."
The problem imo is not so much that women/girls dont't mind being called guys. The problem is that men/boys would most certainly object to being called girls/gals.
You see the same thing happening when girls get boys/unisex names. Do that and the girl is "cool". Try giving a boy a stereotypical girls name and it's "cruel".
There is definitely an element of sexism to it.