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Monthly StatsJune 29, 2022 stats | 10 MILLION upvotes edition
Here are our stats from our 23rd month:
##Totals so far
Users: 7,289
Posts: 62,536
Comments: 903,920
Upvotes: 10,201,527
Downvotes: 241,376
Circles: 36
##June stats
New Users: 128
New Posts: 2,698
New Comments: 46,506
New Upvotes: 475,346
New Downvotes: 17,066
New Circles: 0
Site activity this month:
556 users made posts
1,228 users made comments
1,626 users voted
Site visitors:
12,647 unique IPs per day for the last week
49,621 unique IPs per week for the last month
We had some huge traffic bumps this month including from Internet Archive which started systematically archiving posts here.
###Past months
####2020
####2021
####2022
Disclaimer, I’m bisexual.
First of all I definitely think lesbians should have their own space without any bisexuals taking part. Book clubs, bars, picnics, whatever, if they want it to be for lesbians only then there should be lesbians only present. If someone bisexual want to start a lesbian and/or bi gathering - by all means, but make the rules clear and make sure nobody feels lied to.
Second of all, two things irk me to no end and that’s when women (and men, but I feel like more women do this) in heterosexual relationships:
Re: point 1, I actually don't mind that as much. I've always felt "boyfriend/girlfriend" start to feel very... juvenile when applied to anyone over say, 25. It feels weird to refer to my father's partner as his "girlfriend" when they're both in their 60s. She's not a girl, she's a woman. Not that I'm doubting you that people might use it to obfuscate the fact that they're in a het relationship, but I think it's high time we had some age-appropriate terms for partnerships that don't involve marriage anyway.
I'm in full agreement with you on point 2 though it's a huge peeve of mine. Extra shoutout to the she/they women that call their relationship with a man "gay" or "queer" because they decided they're nonbinary lol.
I'm so torn on this one. I agree with the juvenile associations of gf/bf, and I appreciate that straight people saying 'partner' has made it more socially acceptable to use the term, but I hate the excitement/intrigue and then subsequent letdown of finding out the partner is just some dude.
So a het woman who wants to be cool should refer to her bf as JSD. She gets to be cryptic and sassy for a bit, until the LB woman asks questions. As in:
Woman 1: "Are you coming to the After Work thingy next week? I'm bringing my JSD."
Woman 2: "Wow, sounds edgy! Who's that? Some kind of celebrity?"
Woman 1: "Well, to me - yes!"
Woman 2: "That's intriguing! Tell me more..."
Woman 1: "It's Just Some Dude."
Woman 2 (yawns discreetly, then puts on a cheerful face): "Oh my, look at the time! I have to go to the bakery before they're out of sourdough pretzels. See you around!"
That’s true! The people I’m thinking of have all been under 25 though, and at that age boy/girlfriend seems pretty appropriate. English is not my first language but even in my language there aren’t very many good terms except one’s related to marriage, so yeah, I get it.
I like that we have "companion" in french, which is a gendered word so we know if we're talking about a man or a woman. I love hearing people use the term, it's endearing
That’s great! I also believe norwegian has a word for partner which translates to “loved one”, but it’s also gendered depending on your partner. Love that one too.
I haaaaaaaaate the spicey straights that say their relationship is queer bc they are both bi.
I'm bi and was with men mostly my whole life and never once did banging one of them make me feel queer, even the bi one. it enraged me seeing that and stuff about straight relationships being "so good they become lesbians" and they show like Mr and Mrs Darcy and shit. like what the fuck is wrong with the straights!!!
yeah those two things really bother me too. I suppose though, while organizers usually include a description of who can come, they are still often called lesbian events. I know the last Lesbian Day of Visibility i went to they were clear bisexuals and TIMs were invited. And so, even if it's in the details, it's weird when a quarter or a half of the attendees are men in frocks.
Yeah this obviously sucks! But I think some bisexuals (especially if single or currently dating a woman) might think it’s fine for them to join an exclusive lesbian event because they aren’t currently dating a man. And I don’t think it’s their place to decide. If it’s for lesbians, then it’s for lesbians only.
I am also bi and agree with you on everything. Now I don't have to write my own comment lol
I call my husband “partner” but that’s because we don’t really like the institution of marriage (we got married for legal reasons). It’s not to seem mysterious or anything it’s just the term we like. We are both bisexual and I agree with you on the queer relationship thing. We are not in a queer relationship. We are in a straight relationship and the fact we are bi doesn’t change that.
Out of curiosity, what are the legal reasons? We don’t really have any in my country even though people claim them.
So, in the USA for tax purposes, if a couple makes about the same amount it doesn't make sense for them to file jointly, however, if one person makes a lot less than the other, than absolutely, it helps in their combine household income. I really wish this extended to more situations, such as millennials taking care of elderly parents who yes their social security is more than we will ever make.
We were non residents abroad and needed to get married to have a mortgage approved!
The partner thing does actually rub me the wrong way a little, but I can see the nuance of both sides!
I had a woman I used to work with who religiously referred to her significant other as 'partner', it actually made me so excited because in my day-to-day, I don't actually get the pleasure of meeting lesbians or bisexuals in relationships with women often. I was stoked!
We had a dinner for work, and when I found out her partner was male, it just took all the wind out of my sails, it's a reminder to how frustratingly alone it is for us.
On the flip side, she could see the vast disappointment on my end and see that as rejection, or not being 'good enough' to be recognized. Her being bisexual had no hindrance on my mood, neither did her delightful male partner at the time. I just wish I had more people to relate to, is all
So, I suppose it's a means of perspective -
A bi woman partnered with a man is still bisexual (I wouldn't use queer cause I just find it a catchall with no definition), but her relationship classifies as heterosexual.
When they say 'queer' I assume they mean 'non-traditional', but lets be real here. I'd wager nobody, millennial onward - has traditional dynamics anymore. Het or Homo alike, so I don't really understand when people tell me their relationship is 'queer'
I think spouse would be fine. That's what my parents used, and they weren't married.
There are more bisexual women by far than there are lesbians, but there's a narrative that bisexual women struggle to date other women because lesbians are rejecting them.
The reality is that if you have the option of men and women, men are easier. You can avoid a lot of homophobia, you don't have to unpack m/f dynamics, you can be pursued, you don't have to try and find the much smaller pool of lb women than straight men. And that's fine. Those are really fine reasons to date men.
But lesbians don't have that option. And so when there's this narrative that the reason bi women aren't actually dating us or are less accepted in community is because of lesbians, it adds insult to injury.
but there's a narrative that bisexual women struggle to date other women because lesbians are rejecting them
And they can date other bisexual women.
I've found that bi women usually have the same objections to dating other bi women that lesbians have. Not wanting to be someone's experiment or exploration. Expecting to be summarily dumped when the bi woman falls for a man. Not wanting the bi woman to be concurrently dating men - though that is usually just an emotional thing for bi women, where lesbians are often grossed out by it. Bi women not committing to another women for the long haul. I've heard all this from bi women.
I can see this perspective!
The lack of understanding from both sides,
We don't have those options, and they don't have a right to center us as problematic for their own dating shortcomings,
We also, don't have the right to hold it over them like it's something to be ashamed of (their attraction to men), as I know both sides (not you or me personally) are guilty of said things -
Yeah I can relate to this. I’ve commented on other posts that I’m less intimidated by men than women. Men ARE easier for all the reasons you mentioned.
really men easier? Straight men are easier to find surely, but you could work through your nerves. I used to be way more nervous around women, and you have to instigate. Men have so few standards, but they can be violent. Worst you can do with a woman is make a fool of yourself like me hoping to to make food for an attractive woman. I'd probably throw up in my mouth if i did that for a man (which isn't rare because i have acid reflux).
by easy we also mean that it is easy in terms of society, by being with men, bisexuals will not suffer homophobia from society and will not have all the problems that this implies.
Maybe easier in some ways, but there is the rabbit hole of hetero dynamics and toxic relationship patterns. Added bonus: societal expectations of what it means to be the woman in a het relationship in terms of family, career, emotionally, sexually. If a het partnered woman can rise above the clutter, great. Not sure it's easy though.
"easy" may not be the best way to describe it.
but what you say is something that we also suffer just because we are women, perhaps not to the same degree,since being with a woman we will not have misogyny at home, but everything around that environment is still very hostile.
we also have family and environmental pressure even though we are lesbians there are still those expectations that we have to be with men, to stand out in a career is still difficult for a lesbian woman.
but what we mean by "easy" is that randoms on the street will not attack you because you are with your boyfriend, you will not be harassed in establishments or denied any services like being thrown out of a restaurant because it is a "family" environment, something that your lesbian relationship is not for them, and the many other forms of homophobia that you will encounter.
Yeah, I'd agree with this -
Getting a man is like shooting a fish in a barrel,
navigating the ideal dynamics in a heterosexual relationship with a man, yeah oof.
I do see a lot of posts from bi women who struggle with their identity once partnered with a man too,
Bi women who get with TIMs should NEVER call themselves lesbian. I know that bi women who don't do this have no control over the bi women who do. It creates a lot of ill will and throws lesbians under the bus, but I don't know how to resolve that issue.
Other than that, lesbians want our spaces to be exclusively about women only loving other women. It used to be that way. Bi women were honest about being bi because some (?many, depending where you were) lesbians did not want to date bi women.
We don't want to hear about boyfriends, ex-husbands. We don't want to hear NAMALT, not my Nigel, or defending men. And many (?probably most) lesbians absolutely do not want to be dating a woman who concurrently also dates men, is married to a man, or has a steady boyfriend. It should go without saying that unicorn hunting is verboten.
When lesbians can't find partners - we have an incredibly small dating pool - we stay single. That's just the way it is. Bi women just go off until they find that one guy who's "different".
If you are bi and want to be in lesbian spaces and lives, give up everything male aligned. Commit to women, and only women. And don't take up with a man when you can't find a woman.
If a woman is honest about being bi, doesn't bring up men, not currently dating a man and makes it clear she's there to meet other same-sex attracted women, I don't see a big issue.
If she frequently mentions her Nigel or otherwise bores the other women with stories about men, what does she want in a lesbian space anyway. She can try, but it won't be pretty.
Bi women who get with TIMs should NEVER call themselves lesbian. I know that bi women who don't do this have no control over the bi women who do. It creates a lot of ill will and throws lesbians under the bus, but I don't know how to resolve that issue.
It’s so disheartening how often I’ve seen this happen. I know a bi woman (well, she later called herself pansexual to be more “inclusive”) whose husband later announced he was trans. She’s now taken to calling herself a lesbian, I presume to further validate her TIM’s gender feelings.
It’s so strange how some people—and I want to be clear that this isn’t limited to bisexual people, nor do I think all bisexual people are like this—claim different stances on these sexualities to suit whichever narrative they want to push. There’s people who claim that bi/pansexuality is the most Inclusive and Woke, and shame on all you close-minded homosexuals, and others that fetishize homosexuality or otherwise claim it to validate said fetish. I wish people would just be honest and accepting of their attractions and acknowledge that no one of us has any moral purity over any other based purely on the biological fact of our attraction alone.
I think bisexual women have more in common with heterosexual women than with lesbians. I don’t know how controversial it is to say but that’s my take.
Bisexual women grew up finding men attractive, they can see themselves marrying and having sex with a man etc.
And when it comes to the animosity online I think it’s just because a lot of lesbians have been hurt and felt used by bisexual women in the past and so they’d rather not go through it all again. (I mean we all know this I think).
I personally don’t mind having bi women around in lesbian spaces as long as they don’t bring up men. Ever. I find it disrespectful when they start talking about their hetero life. But other than that they’re pretty cool.
For myself personally I think there's a point in a relationship where discussing men they've dated and experiences surrounding that is fine. I'm not going to expect her to withhold her dating history or trauma from men forever from me.
But it's really upsetting when bisexual women flood gay bars and start the heterosexual PDA with bisexual men. Or when bisexual women immediately want to talk about men shortly after meeting. Or when bisexual men and women join gay events or spaces and bring their hetero significant others.
There's some occasions, like visiting a standard public space or a gathering or whatever when it's fine. But when it's specifically a same-sex attracted space, organized group, event—whatever—that is a place for you to celebrate and possibly explore your same sex attraction free of heterosexuality. It's inappropriate and inconsiderate and we have to be around heterosexuality and the norms from it all the time anyways.
Your last point is so important. I absolutely believe in shared spaces, but bi women coming in to lesbian spaces need to leave men at the door.
I also believe that bi women deserve their own spaces just as much as lesbians deserve our own spaces. Bi women have their own perspectives and experiences unique to them, and the same goes for lesbians—just because we have some overlap doesn’t mean we are all the same. I feel like we’d all be happier if we could have access to our little Venn diagram of spaces. We should have the freedom and opportunity to come together when we want to, while also being able to come back into our own like-minded places. I don’t believe it should be an either-or.
I consider myself bi with a strong preference for women. I grew up being attracted to women (very rarely men), almost all of my 'serious' relationships have been with women and picturing myself married to a man gives me the ick.
There's sth about men and the male perspective that just feels off to me, like sth. is missing. I used to gloss it over, but the older I get the less tolerance I have for male BS and hetero relationship dynamics. Maybe that's why I've never fully understood straight romance.
All in all, I don't think I have much in common with straight women or het-leaning bi women (apart from the shared experience of being female, of course).
There are some cool and attractive bi women out there, but I'd only be comfortable dating one if she's clearly and enthusiastically woman-leaning.
So I'd say just because some of us wlw have the capacity to be attracted to men (usually under very specific circumstances), doesn't mean all bi women can easily default to heterosexuality whenever it's convenient.
And it certainly doesn't mean we'd all prefer a "happily ever after" with a man over the loving companionship of a compatible woman.
#notallbi 😅 No, of course, I believe and understand everything you said, my statements were more about bi women as a group. As individuals, I am sure some bi women want to end up with a woman long term, and I have said it before. It’s just not the majority, from what I can tell.
Idk. Bi is a loaded term which I don't feel really describes my experience. If all men magically disappeared from this world tomorrow, I don't think I'd fret over my romantic prospects being taken away from me. Something tells me I'd be fine. 😎 Also, you're probably not as likely to bump into het-leaning bi women on this channel as in "queer" spaces.
I like this, because tragically a lot of lesbian are dispositioned to ONLY come across the kinds of bi women looking to exploit or take advantage of them,
So having access to different perspectives is what I would consider the most important part
Well met :`)
Do you feel lesbians have more in common with bisexuals than they do heterosexual women?
No not really. In the context we are talking about I feel like lesbians have more in common with gay men than bisexual women.
As a whole, I think a lot of bisexual women are disengaged and lacking in initiative when it comes to wlw communities and wlw dating. Most of them seem to expect lesbians to take the initiative and do most of the work. For example, the discussion is always around whether or not bisexual women should be allowed in lesbian spaces, never whether or not lesbians should be allowed in bisexual women spaces because bisexual women generally don't ever create their own spaces.
Questioning/bicurious women can be really selfish and inconsiderate. It definitely comes from a place of ignorance moreso than malice, but that doesn't make it less hurtful. It will probably better to direct them towards doing their research first, as in, literally read a book, preferably non-fiction, about same sex female attraction. Not the lesbian masterdoc, something that's been published and is in libraries. Imo it's not viable to tell women with boyfriends/husbands who want to "open their relationship and experiment" that it's a good way to explore their sexuality. At the very least, tell these women to pair off with one another, because the vast majority of women do not want to be somebody's sex experiment. Do the minimal literature review first (and please try to fit in an ethics review as well) before engaging in experimentation.
Questioning/bicurious women can be really selfish and inconsiderate.
I mentioned in my comment that lesbians could give a little more grace to women who are questioning or exploring but what you're saying here is true. Inconsideration is a great word to describe it, and yes it does seem to come from ignorance as opposed to malice.
I really wonder how many of them would tolerate being propositioned to by men the way they proposition lesbians: I'm not sure if I'm attracted to you, so let's have casual sex to help me find out, meanwhile I shall stay committed to my spouse whom I love. Even if they are alright with this, they would understand why most women aren't. It's rude and dehumanizing that they can't seem to make the same connection when it comes to wlw. I get that they're thinking about this issue for probably the first time in their lives, but it would be nice if they can think just a little harder.
As part of the B, I tend to feel a lot of judgment from the L for my attraction to men. That’s all been online. I haven’t dared seek out WLW spaces in real life because 1) the recent infiltration by TIMs and 2) the online sentiments I’ve read about people like me make me feel I’d be unwelcome. My real life experience with lesbians is very limited because I live in a deeply conservative area where a lot of times it’s not comfortable to be openly out as homosexual or same-sex attracted. I know there are lesbians who exclude bisexual women from their dating pool because they’ve been burned before which is absolutely fair. I just tend to leave lesbians and their spaces alone since I figure they wouldn’t like me. 🤷♀️ On Reddit I noticed my opinions were pretty unwelcome because I’m “tainted” by attraction or “pandering/submission” to men.
I think a lot of the gaps we see not just between the L and B but between feminists in general are because we tend to expect some political purity but every person has a different idea of what that purity standard should be.
Seconding all of this.
Interesting take, for sure - and I'm sorry you've felt pressure or overshadowed for who you are, I welcome you!
I know the concept around being one big happy family is a pipe dream, but, I also see no reason to broach the 'dirty laundry' so to speak and perhaps foster a bit more understanding, I see no shame in trying,
Other than perceptional views, have you yourself ever had any negative discourse with a lesbian?
What's the desire to pursue lesbian spaces as a bisexual in a relationship (not accusatory, lo prometo, but very curious to what's being sought after)?
Do you find that bisexual spaces cater equally to your same-sex attractions?
I must know!
I don’t go into lesbian spaces when in a relationship. I just haven’t felt comfortable seeking them out when single either. I don’t even know of bisexual spaces. I have been dismissed by lesbians when they find out I’m bisexual, but not rudely or anything like that.
Bisexual spaces are awful in my experience. Just awful. First of all they almost always include men. Second of all most of the bi women don’t even seem to be bi. It’s boring and ends up being another straight place except men feel way more comfortable being openly perverted because the space is organized around a word with “sex” in it, and the women are competing to be as male-identified as possible. Ew.
It’s like TIMs invading women’s spaces. The bis want out of bi spaces because they’re horrible because bis are in them. Then we bring all our baggage and bad behavior (and scrotes) and bang on lesbians’ doors. I wouldn’t want to open up either.
Yeah I kinda assumed bi spaces would be that way. and men always assume if you’re bi you will want a threesome 🥴
What would you personally like to see changed to better bi spaces for bi women?
Do you think it's possible for these spaces to make such changes?
With all things considered,
How do you suggest we move forward (regarding all parties), what would you like to see from other bisexual women and lesbians?
I would like to see febfem spaces. Basically what another lesbian commenter here said; no talking about men or relationships with them. I envision these as groups that would be indistinguishable from lesbian groups except that we could also discuss things like bi-cycles and fetishization that lesbians wouldn’t want to hear about.
Moving forward, I’d like to see bisexual women either decentering men or staying out of WLW spaces (as I generally do; I barely participate here and definitely have never been in a WLW space irl because I’m married to a man). I would like to see bisexual women being respectful of lesbians’ boundaries and understanding that lesbians owe us nothing and that a lot of their mistrust of us is well-founded. The only thing I’d appreciate from lesbians is for them to keep stereotypes and hostile or insulting language in those lesbian spaces or to bi women who are exhibiting the problematic behavior. I’ve been on the receiving end of this from lesbians more frequently than I would have expected and it seems like it was literally just because I was the nearest bi woman they could insult—I don’t do the bad behaviors and I’m not trying to get into their spaces. It’s really counterproductive to insult someone who is genuinely on your team, and just like I don’t understand or pretend to understand the struggles lesbians face, lesbians don’t understand the struggles bisexual women face.
I hope this space provides a blanket for you then,
A warmth,
Very well met
It’s good to have a feminist space. I catch judgment from other women less often here, only once in a while.
Lesbian here.
I would like to see more structure, leadership, pride, and people stepping into role model positions in the bi community. I love most of you and have your back but I feel like I'm the only voice in the room when I push back on ladies whose behavior and speach is both biphobic and homophobic. Stuff like "I'm a lesbian because I love mff threesomes" or "I know I'm gay because I only crave sex with men on my period" or "Am I a lesbian? I have crushes on male and female celebrities" or "well the masterdoc says..."
I appreciate this post! I hope this circle itself has gone some way towards bridging this gap. I feel fairly invested in this issue, and am also doing stuff irl on this basis. Mostly I'm motivated by wanting wlw spaces that my gf and I can be together in.
I think a broader recognition of male identification would be helpful. I don't want to hear about bisexual women's men or ex-men; and I equally don't want to hear about lesbian women's male best friends or sons or roommates, not even if "he's actually really nice."
As an aside, I am fascinated by the idea that being attracted to men makes a woman privileged. Sure, she has an easier time socially...and in return he shaves years off her life and is the person most likely to murder her.
I'm lesbian and think we need a different word than "privileged" to describe whatever trappings of benefits heterosexual and bisexual women obtain from hetero relationships and treated as "normal"in society. I've been discriminated against and treated like shit by heterosexual and bisexual women in many ways. That's real. But to portray heterosexuality as a "privilege" for bisexual or hetero women is just inaccurate.
"I think a broader recognition of male identification would be helpful."
Over 90% of bi women choose to be with men. So they spend time with men. They prioritize men - at least some man, at some point, usually a number of men, in their lives. And, in particular, they live their lives adjusted to, and cooperative with, male socialization and male sexuality in intimate relationships. That is male identification - at least a big part of it.
I don’t disagree. I’ve just been in a lot of lesbian spaces assuming that male identification wouldn’t be between us and then it still was. Being caught off guard by it is worse.
Well, yes. Lesbians are subject to female socialization. More than ever these days. But most of us wouldn't care if every man was terminally depressed because he had erectile dysfunction and could never penetrate even the Grand Canyon ever again.
As the name suggests (and hopefully, it doesn't slap a target on my forehead!),
I really enjoy difficult conversations, I find that people who are emotionally raw, are usually coming from a really genuine place. And as much as that place may hurt to open up, I find it a necessary evil for finding solutions and understanding,
We've all been hurt. Every single one of us here,
What would you want out of a shared space like this?
You mentioned your lass, is it a mixed orientation?
Have you had any stipulations or stressors because of it?
"and hopefully, it doesn't slap a target on my forehead!"
Is that you, Calamity Jane? 🤠
I can't tell if you're speaking in regards to an actual person, or playing a bit -
But I reckon yer' right on the money, pardner'
As a bi woman, I think that people just need to be willing to hear each other out. There's all kinds of fighting going on between different groups on the internet. Arguments can start over pretty much anything. In this case, lesbians seem to be concerned that some women are claiming to be a lesbian while actively dating men or being attracted to them (which makes sense). I also don't think it's acceptable for a bi woman to pressure a lesbian into trying sex with a man because she thinks that she could like it.
From the other side, some people who express negativity towards bi people do so because they judge all bi people as being the same. Sometimes bi people themselves may contribute to this. For example, a bi woman might say, "It's true that I'm very privileged for being bi, because I can just date a man at any time." But not all bi women can relate to this. I myself have tried to force myself to be attracted to certain men because when I identified as straight, I couldn't figure out why having a long-term boyfriend just did not feel right, and I even felt like I was hiding something. So it's worth keeping in mind that the "bisexual" label encompasses a wide variety of preferences.
Agreed, tensions are running high, and the need to self-preserve is causing people to be a touch cutthroat,
I think that's why it's important to open the floor to these kinds of discussions,
yeah, they're going to be hard. I don't doubt they'll be harsh words and hurt feelings. I can even picture the mods sighing, ready to fwap us upside the head,
however,
it has to happen.
If you don't mind me asking,
Did you find the bisexual community to be properly supportive of your coming to be journey?
Did you ever seek out lesbian spaces for support?
I've always had bi friends who ended up being supportive because I said that I was a "straight ally" before. I was already pretty used to knowing LGBT people and about LGBT culture. As for bisexual communities online, I unlike some others have had a positive experience. People seem to always have a positive attitude and are very supportive of one another regardless of what their specific preference is. I'm still interested in bi spaces, although unfortunately yes they do tend to be male-centric or phallocentric.
I'm really glad you had a positive experience!
It's hard to find community, so keep them close!
I find the sentiments on late bloomers kind of interesting. And I'm wondering if those sentiments would be the same if the person in question was a gay man. Somehow I doubt that if a man were to date girls in his teenage years or even end up with a family of his own only to come out as gay well into his midlife would be met with the same scrutiny as late blooming women.
I see this come up a wee bit, and I actually do think gay men get equal scrutiny.
I don't think it's completely farfetched that these men cover themselves completely with a heterosexual family. It's not unheard of, that's for sure!
I think both sexes engage for reasons related to social conformity, safety, and unfair expectations, but, the core behind those reasons, I'd hypothesize would come from a different place,
Since male homosexuality is vilified, and whatnot - but, at this point, I'm merely speculating, and cannot speak on those experiences,
Will get back to you on this :)
Yeah I'm not necessarily trying to point out using others as a beard. Moreso that people will not doubt a gay man's sexuality even if he comes out later in life, whereas people seem to doubt late blooming lesbians.
I'm sorry if this is controversial, and it's just my experience, so of course it's not universal and just my opinion. But, I think the gap is more with GC lesbians than non-GC lesbians. Almost all the pubic events i see specifically include bisexual women and TIMs for that matter. Once the boundaries eroded to that degree, i understand wanting to firm up the boundaries. And even i get annoyed sometimes at the women only interested in women because of the male gaze. Excluding bisexuals is one way to exclude them, but you end up excluding other real WLW. I'm just surprised lesbians still welcome so-called late-blooming lesbians.
What do you mean by “so-called late-blooming lesbians”?
Heck, no sorries - I love controversial!
I'm not quite sure what you mean, could I ask for a bit of an elaboration?
Are you referring to lesbian specific spaces? Or all around group vibes?
Late Bloomers/Bisexuals love women to the same degree as lesbians, this is not something that should be questioned,
But, I find no harm in recognizing that both experiences differ vastly from somebody who's been out long-term, or recognized their attraction since birth. I have little to no relatability to somebody who's been married long-term with a man, or has had challenges within that area,
I assumed that's the gap you were speaking of was disallowing bisexuals at lesbian events/spaces. I really don't think many people care if lesbians don't want to date bisexuals. And i suppose we could talk about bipobia, but it's pretty hard for me to bulk at a stereotpye when there is so many in the group conforming to it (i'm thinking of the polyamorous pansexuals). What do you feel the gap is? I think that needs to be settled before we can address bridging it.
in general,
There has been a lot of shit thrown from both sides, in regards to who's permitted where, the common ones I've seen lately are;
Should bisexual women with male partners be permitted into lesbian bars? why or why not?
Lesbians being chastised for wanting only other lesbians within their spaces? why is this wrong?
Should lesbian terminology and slurs be used by bisexual women, and if so, where is the line?
But I'd love to here the narrative from the perspective of bisexual women in this regard. I won't let the mods shut down discourse (because that's silly), but I think the harder topics are ones we should broach
The answer to all of these in my opinion is NO. The fact that we’re even asking this is why they don’t like us lmao
Well,
to you and me both- however, to anyone who thinks otherwise, I like to give them the floor to explain why, as quite frankly,
I'd actually like to know why.
I like bisexuals, I just wish I had a bigger variety of experiences to pull from (also a bit selfish on my part as to why I made this post!) since unfortunately, my experiences are not the hottest to trot. I know rationally, my pool of experience is just a crock of bad luck, but it's doubly-difficult to weed through this new age homophobia as well (some that's coming from in house)
I'm grateful to have spaces like this because it allows me to find that nuance :`),
So well met, and thanks for your two cents!
I've only seen animosity exclusively in online spaces. Anonymity brings out the best and worst in people.
Should bisexual women with male partners be permitted into lesbian bars?
It's not feasible to ask everyone entering a bar what their relationship status is and make them provide evidence. Obviously men should not be let inside.
Lesbians being chastised for wanting only other lesbians within their spaces?
This is coming from TRAs. Of course it's wrong. I too had to grow up with boys claiming to be a lesbian trapped in a male body.
Should lesbian terminology and slurs be used by bisexual women, and if so, where is the line?
Many of the slurs are used on lesbian and bisexual women. I think it's difficult to reclaim something, but that bothers me a lot less than men using it in their traditional senses.
Not feasible in the slightest!
I was implying bi women who SHOW UP to lesbian bars with male partners. I've seen this controversy pop up on reddit at least three times, and the consensus from bi people. Is that couple has every right to be there because their relationship is 'Queer'. It's been an interesting rodeo for me, so it's nice to get more opinions!
Yeah, slurs are universal - but self-usage I find it a bit..off? Idk, man, the only time I've seen dyke used outside of lesbian context has been bi women in heterosexual relationships. Which, yeah. Fine, sure, 'whatever'. But for some reason, much like lesbian disdain hits harder than straight peoples. The blatant disrespect shown hits harder than the insult
Yes, it can be weird when people try to reclaim words. It's not really something i want to spend my time fighting against tho. I've had black friends call me the soft n word and at first straight people using partner and boi bothered me. When i learned it, it was for lesbian women. Or one of my exs called herself a stud, maybe that bothered straight men. I donno.
Lesbian.
There's the identifying as a lesbian thing that many bisexual women do (identifying as latebloomers) which is contributing to lesbians' long history of historical erasure and conflation of language used to accurately identify who we are, and then also a lot of campaigning for/as TRAs against lesbian or even female-only events, discussions, spaces, etc. There's also a lot of heteronormativity that bisexual women bring into The Community that lesbians are trying to not have anything to do with, and there's some longstanding behavioral patterns of bisexual women quickly aligning with men (gay, straight, whatever) in community politics and within interpersonal dynamics too.
And then on the other end of things, I think lesbians can give a bit more grace to women who are exploring their orientation and genuinely believe they might be lesbian but realize later on they're bisexual, or more understanding for women who are exploring their sexuality. I think sometimes bisexual women are treated as "tainted women", "traitors", or unconsciously thought of as attention seeking or promiscuous even when it's not said out loud and not warranted.
I think sometimes bisexual women are treated as "tainted women", "traitors", or unconsciously thought of as attention seeking or promiscuous even when it's not said out loud and not warranted.
I have definitely picked up on this vibe before.
Yeah. So this is only ever online, but within the lesbian community I have seen more wrath and downright hate aimed at bisexuals than I have towards straight women or even bisexual men. I think there's a lot of good reasons as to why lesbians want to not date bisexual women, are upset with bisexual women, and want to have our own groups. But sometimes it is just misogyny aimed at other women disguised as other things.
Do you think that sometimes lesbians unconsciously endorse the idea that sleeping with a man decreases a woman’s “value?”
I've noticed way too many "bisexuals" are not bisexual at all, but identify as so for social clout. And regardless if they're actually bisexual or not, way too many self identified bisexuals have deluded themselves into believing their bisexuality is somehow more progressive and moral than homosexuality.
You're (general usage of "you" here, not targeting anyone specific) not better than me because you'd do anyone.
You're not purer or more enlightened than us icky exclusive homos because you are (or pretend you are) attracted to everyone. I know wokeism tells you're the ideal, but you're not, just like religious people are not the chosen ones.
Going forward, I'd really like for bisexuals to stop insisting bisexuality is the superior sexuality, and to accept that you are not entitled to be included in lesbian stuff.
I've noticed way too many "bisexuals" are not bisexual at all, but identify as so for social clout.
I think it's worse than that. I think it's less for social clout now and more because people are starting to genuinely believe that the stereotypes associated with being same-sex attracted = being same sex attracted. I think others also consider being gay as an aesthetic. Or they consider their agreement with "queer theory" politics as an indicator that they're gay. They genuinely believe they're same sex attracted because of these things.
And regardless if they're actually bisexual or not, way too many self identified bisexuals have deluded themselves into believing their bisexuality is somehow more progressive and moral than homosexuality.
This is really bad within TIP circles right now. Like it has been for awhile, but where I live in trans HQ, USA it's really reached a whole new level and I'm worried about it spreading.
Yeah, it's even turning into "i once thought an actress was hot or interesting" or "i watched lesbian porn" and suddenly they are bisexual. Although, usually they are woke enough to identify as polyamorous pansexuals (and gender fluid/queer). I think that's the group that think they are morally superior for 'seeing past sex'.🤷🏽♀️
We won’t “do anyone.” That’s such a nasty stereotype. You wouldn’t sleep with any woman.
You're (general usage of "you" here, not targeting anyone specific) not better than me because you'd do anyone.
You're not purer or more enlightened than us icky exclusive homos because you are (or pretend you are) attracted to everyone.
This is an unfortunate assumption. Just because I am attracted to people of both sexes doesn’t mean everyone is my type or that I’m undiscerning in my choice of partner. I’m not attracted to EVERYONE of both sexes.
Very on the nose, respectfully, I'd rather these things were delivered point-blank rather than come across as finger pointing, if you could perhaps apply a bit a tact,
is this a personal issue you've experienced, perhaps one that has happened a few times?
Bisexuals and lesbians both deserve the right to their own spaces, but there's no reason overlap shouldn't happen,
The struggles bisexuals face in being deemed 'enough' are trials we don't understand,
It's a difficult gray area because Lesbians are playing defense with the remaining scraps, and bisexuals need connection to sometimes feel more solid in their feelings(?),
This thread went pretty much as expected lol
I know, I love it!
Sometimes you need to shake the bees to get the honey,
Jokes, I made that up!
I do believe these are necessary conversations
I'm locking this because the comments keep on trickling in and it's becoming extremely cumbersome to keep an eye on this post.
I understand that there has always been animosity, but lately it has been worse, partly thanks to what happens on social networks.
as a lesbian i feel that part of the reasons is that many of us feel that we are a minority even in what is supposed to be our own community, according to statistics bisexuals outnumber lesbians 3 to 1, and they always end up going to lesbian communities, where lesbians end up being a minority.
bisexuals end up taking over these communities, where we end up not having free expression to address problems that only we have and above all we cannot fight against lesbophobia that many bisexuals end up bringing, since that would make us "biphobic", we end up being silenced in what are supposed to be our own communities.
then there are the kind of bisexuals that for a few likes of men want to end what it means to be a lesbian, nowadays it is easy to find bisexuals who are self-declare lesbians while dating men, or who say that lesbians can sleep with men from time to time, etc., it feels like an attack on the only sexuality that has nothing to do with men to try to put them there.
Not to mention things like unicorn hunters, which not only happen online but in real life, fuck even the lesbian bar in my town is full of bisexuals looking for threesomes for their boyfriends/husbands.
There's another minority in the wlw community, and that's febfems. Since they are only interested in dating women, they don't feel they have a lot in common with other bi women who don't center women. At the same time, a lot of lesbians don't want them in their spaces either.
I haven't really come across febfem forums on the internet. They are very rare. So febfems are stuck between a rock and a hard place, which may lead to animosity when the group they have the most in common with wants nothing to do with them while the more man-leaning bi women are just not their cup of tea.
It would definitely help to have a space for febfems and woman-leaning bis.
Febfems may genuinely only be interested in dating women. But every one I have ever met has gone with a man - the one "exception" - when they can't find a woman partner.
Lesbians don't do that. Ever. No matter how much bi women, even febfems, say they have so much in common with lesbians, the getting with a man thing makes them different from lesbians in a fundamental way.
febfems at the end of the day they are still bisexual, it is possible for them to continue to feel attraction for men.
the problem here is not the lesbian community because we deserve a place just for ourselves.
shared spaces exist for those reasons.
Who gets to decide that? I don't think anyone should be allowed to unilaterally decide which group they have the most I'm common with; not TiMs, not febfems. If lesbians do not agree with that assessment, I don't think it's reasonable to declare lesbians to "have the most in common" with febfems, regardless of how febfems feel.
Perhaps a bit thought-provoking,
But do bi communities uphold same-sex values equal to their opposite ones?
I understand the ratios are leaning as such,
but after hearing comment after comment about how many love all women and their one exception, you would think those spaces would be better tailored to address febfems or male-leaning bi men,
I get that it's a rock and a hard place for febfems, my question is why that is?